Digital BW, The Print

Hi all,

Especially Roy & Paul.

This newsgroup is wonderful and I am sure like many others I have 
been lurking, reading posts, & acting on them for many months.  I am 
technically oriented & the knowledge being passed around is awesome.  
I don't want anyone to feel bad for me but my head is about to 
explode!

The two or three great threads going on now are wonderful but I am 
losing track.  I find myself unable to remember which subject is 
being discussed in which email.  What applies to which printer, to 
which ink set, to which operating system, to glossy or matte, to 
spray or glop, to which printers can glop????

I know the answer is for me to look in the archives & I have 
attempted to do so but right now I have other time consuming 
obligations that prevent me from going through the hundreds of emails 
involved (a second time) to pick out the salient points I missed the 
first time.  So.........

With my hat humbly in my hand I have some questions:

I know this first questions is like an apprentice going into the 
office of a master & asking for clarification.  And I know that the 
only way to true nirvana is to learn through suffering but…

1)	Could someone with intimate subject knowledge of large 
threads sometimes periodically provide a summary if they are so 
inclined? (The thrust of a given thread sometimes moves from one 
subject line to another & hard to follow from beginning to end.)

2)Does anyone know of a "dictionary of terms" on the web for the 
acronyms used in this newsgroup?

3)Can an Epson 2200 use glop (gloss optimizer)?  What ink set 
companies provide this option?

4)Can Epson Premium Semimatte (or Semigloss or Luster) be used on an 
Epson 2200?  Then sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield?

5)Does PremierArt Print Shield increase the dmax of a print on the 
Semimatte paper?  If as I believe, the answer is yes, does this 
improvement occur with the standard Epson pigment inks or should one 
of the aftermarket inks (MIS, etc.) be used?

6)I have been using QTR & have enjoyed it.  The version I am running 
is an older non-gui version for Windows.   1st, how do I tell what 
version I am now running?  2nd, is the end product (the print) better 
now using the newest version or is it just easier to use?  So many 
improved versions have come out in the last several weeks that I have 
stayed on the sidelines rather then upgrade with every version.


Please do not gather from my questions that I do not take my 
photography seriously.  On the contrary, with what little free time I 
currently have, I spend it capturing images and waiting for the dust 
to clear.

For the record, I work with the following:
•	Windows XP (SP2)
•	Epson 2450 Scanner
•	Viewscan
•	Photoshop CS
•	Epson 2200 Printer (Ultrachrome inks)
•	QTR
•	Toyo 4x5
•	Hasselblad 501C
•	Rolleiflex 2.8E
•	Canon 10D

Thanks for this great group!

Bruce Varner
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/btvarner/Bruce/photo.htm

Hi Bruce


> From: btvarner <btvarner@...>
 
> The two or three great threads going on now are wonderful but I am
> losing track.  I find myself unable to remember which subject is
> being discussed in which email.  What applies to which printer, to
> which ink set, to which operating system, to glossy or matte, to
> spray or glop, to which printers can glop????

Know how you feel

 
> With my hat humbly in my hand I have some questions:
> 

> 1) Could someone with intimate subject knowledge of large
> threads sometimes periodically provide a summary if they are so
> inclined? (The thrust of a given thread sometimes moves from one
> subject line to another & hard to follow from beginning to end.)

Probably a good idea but some of the threads on development issues are fast
moving and inconclusive by nature as we collectively explore new notions and
ways of doing things.  The current QTR Matte/Photo discussion is a key
development made by Roy and stems from a long discussion had quite some time
ago about managing the (rather large, in the case of matte paper)
compression of tonal range that must occur from image file (a range of
possible values from pure black to pure white) to print (dMin to dMax).  QTR
and any RIP that linearizes Lab values (L) straight lined this compression
without regard to the image content.  A good way to think about it is to
draw a chart which has its x axis 0-255 (8 bit) and L on the y axis ie
0-100.  Pure Lab space would be a straight line up from 0 (black) at 0 to
100 at 255 (white).  If one has another linear line but the best white is,
say, L=96 and the best black is, say, L=16 (roughly matte paper) you can see
the two colour spaces are very different - the latter is generally lighter
and lacks contrast (slope).  In order to get the same relative "look" in the
print, people had to construct various arbitrary "s curves" in their images
to increase contrast.  If you think about it, the net result from screen or
image file to print was then the collective impact of the mapping to the
flatter print space (pixels with value 0 are printed at 16, values of 100 at
96 etc) and the s curve.  We also had to use soft proofs to check the
results of our work.  A bit messy.

In a colour managed world we have the use of colour engines and various
intents which can automate on a much more sophisticated basis this necessary
tonal compression.  Roy has managed to find a way to make use of this
existing technology.  Specifically he uses Perceptual Intent (with Black
Point Compensation) to manage the compression (as we would in a colour
managed world).  Very cool.  Arguably better and easier proofing and no more
(or certainly less) arbitrary s curves.

The workflow is essentially the same for Mac and OC (on any printer) except
for the last step.  Because PC QTR uses don't use PS to print they can't use
PS to do the last colour conversion "on the fly" at the print stage.  They
must do this manually (converting the document profile) and save the file as
a tiff, reopening the file in the print software.

> 
> 2)Does anyone know of a "dictionary of terms" on the web for the
> acronyms used in this newsgroup?

I don't think this exists but please feel free to ask about any terms.  Keep
reading the posts and you will find you come up the curve quickly.

> 
> 3)Can an Epson 2200 use glop (gloss optimizer)?  What ink set
> companies provide this option?

Any printer can use glop or any other inkjetable substance IF you have the
software to drive the ink jets and the cartridges to put the glop in.  QTR
allows you to precisely control the individual ink slots.  Cartridges are
available from KIS for the 21/2200 which are initially empty - you can load
them with whatever you want.  Think of QTR as simply a tool to say to the
printer "spray from that cartridge at this rate when receiving this image
value".
 
> 4)Can Epson Premium Semimatte (or Semigloss or Luster) be used on an
> Epson 2200?  Then sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield?

Yes.  The 2200 can take most (if not all) of the papers discussed in this
forum.  Some papers are better than others and in many instances a paper
will perform better with a particular ink.
> 
> 5)Does PremierArt Print Shield increase the dmax of a print on the
> Semimatte paper?  If as I believe, the answer is yes, does this
> improvement occur with the standard Epson pigment inks or should one
> of the aftermarket inks (MIS, etc.) be used?

I think the answer is a little.  I think your choice of inks is better
determined by other factors than whether you will spray.  For example do you
want to move to a dedicated B&W ink set?
> 
> 6)I have been using QTR & have enjoyed it.  The version I am running
> is an older non-gui version for Windows.   1st, how do I tell what
> version I am now running?  2nd, is the end product (the print) better
> now using the newest version or is it just easier to use?  So many
> improved versions have come out in the last several weeks that I have
> stayed on the sidelines rather then upgrade with every version.
> 

I am not a PC user but I think you would be well advised to update as there
have been big advancements in the PC version recently - and more to come
shortly.  The Mac version is more static.  You should definitely take
advantage of Roy's new Perceptual Intent workflow and Lab Gray work space -
see his website for more info.


Hope this helps.  Keep asking questions!

Steve

Thanks for the reply Steve!

I understand what you are relaying.  I do however have a couple of 
questions for clarification.

>....Think of QTR as simply a tool to say to the printer "spray from 
that cartridge at this rate when receiving this image value".<

Does the newer version of QTR allow me to do this?  To individually 
control what ink cartridge is sprayed when?  Has anyone developed a 
process to replace any of the existing cartridge spaces with glop 
using QTR?

>....I think your choice of inks is better determined by other 
factors than whether you will spray.  For example do you want to move 
to a dedicated B&W ink set?<

Right now the answer is no.  I know it is heresy but I also like to 
produce prints in color.  I am looking at possibly purchasing a Epson 
4000 in the future at which time one printer could be dedicated to 
B&W.  With that understanding, & with the 13" vs. 17" size difference 
aside, which printer would you recommend dedicating to B&W?  Also, 
would your go MIS inks using QTR or Roy's solutions?
Please keep in mid that I would really like the ability to product 
great prints on E surface looking papers in both b&w and color!

Thanks again,
Bruce

> From: btvarner <btvarner@...>
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply Steve!
> 
> I understand what you are relaying.  I do however have a couple of
> questions for clarification.
> 
>> ....Think of QTR as simply a tool to say to the printer "spray from
> that cartridge at this rate when receiving this image value".<
> 
> Does the newer version of QTR allow me to do this?  To individually
> control what ink cartridge is sprayed when?  Has anyone developed a
> process to replace any of the existing cartridge spaces with glop
> using QTR?

I am sorry but I do not recall whether you use a Mac or PC.  Full control is
available for Mac users and I believe will soon be available for PC users
(others can comment more accurately on this).  You control the inks bymaking
curves.  It requires a densimeter to do it accurately.  In effect QTR is
"ink blind" so you can control glop or anything else just like an ink or
toner.  Yes there are a number of QTR users (using various ink sets)
experimenting with glop.
> 
>> ....I think your choice of inks is better determined by other
> factors than whether you will spray.  For example do you want to move
> to a dedicated B&W ink set?<
> 
> Right now the answer is no.  I know it is heresy but I also like to
> produce prints in color.

I too like to print colour.  Check out the refillable 21/2200 cartridges
from MIS.  Fill one set with colour inks and another with UT7 or such like.
Swap at will.  The savings from filling (and refilling) your own cartridges
will more than offset the costs of flushing a little ink through the system
when you swap.

> I am looking at possibly purchasing a Epson
> 4000 in the future at which time one printer could be dedicated to
> B&W.  With that understanding, & with the 13" vs. 17" size difference
> aside, which printer would you recommend dedicating to B&W?

Well I too would love a 4000 but then I would be frustrated no being able to
print both colour and B&W to the same size.  Can't justify two 4000s.
Swapping cartridges is probably what I will stick to.

> Also, 
> would your go MIS inks using QTR or Roy's solutions?

I use MIS UC equivalents for colour (and Eboni or PK).  I have also started
using UT7 (actually I have UT2 and FSN at the moment but will switch to  UT7
- the warm inks are the same) and glop in the LK position.

Cheers

Steve

In a message dated 1/30/05 2:13:24 PM, btvarner@... writes:


> Please keep in mid that I would really like the ability to product
> great prints on E surface looking papers in both b&w and color!
> 

Bruce-

The Epson 4000 is an excellent machine for producing both grayscale and color 
prints on E surface papers. You can accomplish this with either the UC inks 
or UT7. Given the inherent vagueness of "neutral", you can produce very good 
grayscale prints using the default profiles or printing curves in QTR, Bowhaus, 
ImagePrint, StudioPrint or ColorBurst. If you are inclined to get under the 
hood, and deal with the "nuts and bolt", all these RIP's allow customization. 
The methods vary, but each allows considerable control.

Generally speaking, accurate printing curves or profiles will make color 
shifts manageable and, better yet, minimize metamerism. You're going to get 
bronzing, though, using any pigment ink set on E surface papers.

I very much like being able to move from a grayscale to color print without 
changing printers or inks, and the 4000 is the machine for doing this. I would 
add, though, that at some point it becomes an aesthetic issue. Depending on 
the printing you want to do, and the look you want to accomplish, you may very 
well prefer the look of a quadtone ink set. The problem is that you'd have to 
make prints with all the various solutions, and printing paths, to really dig 
into this.



Bill Kennedy
Associate Professor of Photocommunications
St. Edward's University
512/448-8680


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Bill Kennedy wrote:

> Generally speaking, accurate printing curves or profiles will make 
color 
> shifts manageable and, better yet, minimize metamerism. You're 
going to get 
> bronzing, though, using any pigment ink set on E surface papers.

Thanks Bill,
Do you think that the PremierArt Print Shield spray can remove the 
dreaded bronzing on E surface papers?

Thanks,
Bruce Varner
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/btvarner/Bruce/photo.htm