Digital BW, The Print

What is considered the state of the art Paper/ink combination for the
Epson 2200?

You need to be more specific about your intent.
 
Tom Baker

straya1 <aga@atvci.net> wrote:
What is considered the state of the art Paper/ink combination for the
Epson 2200?





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> What is considered the state of the art Paper/ink combination for the
 > Epson 2200?

Either MIS UT7 inks if you want to go for a dedicated BW inkset or Roy 
Harrington's QuadToneRIP (QTR) if you want to keep using the original 
Ultrachrome inks. Imageprint will also print very good BW with the 
original inks, but at a much higher cost. Since QTR is nearly free I 
suggest you try that first.

As for paper I recommend you to read Clayton Jones' excellent article 
"The great paper chase" and decide for yourself which ones you want to try.

Here's the relevant links:
http://inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/ut7_2200.html
http://harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html
http://www.colorbytesoftware.com/imageprint.htm
http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn5.htm

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Hey everyone. This looks exactly like the group I've been looking for.

I just got an EPSON 2400 and am wondering if 3rd Party RIPs such as
ImagePrint or QTR are necessary or if the existing drivers are sufficient.

I have a ton of questions so I appreciate everyone's help and patience.

Frank
--

Welcome to the group.

>I just got an EPSON 2400 and am wondering if 3rd Party RIPs 
>such as ImagePrint or QTR are necessary or if the existing 
>drivers are sufficient.

Many just use the Advanced B&W mode of the driver.

The main thing I don't like about that approach is that it uses too much
color.  The color pigments are not as lightfast as the carbon. (Epson LK and
LLK are not pure carbon, but still appear to be good.)  Additionally, the
color pigments suffer from metamerism and possibly other problems.  So,
while we do need some color (LM and LC) in the image to offset the warmth of
carbon, the fewer color pigs in the image the better.

So, while it's slightly more work, I like replacing the yellow cart with one
that has carbon in it.  Carbon is, in effect, a low gamut yellow -- without
the problems of a color pigment.  MIS carbon (LLK or the standard light
carbon I mentioned in a previous post) is ideal for this purpose -- and
cheap in bulk.  (The MIS spongeless carts are excellent. Be sure to have the
correct chip on the cart.  You can re-use Epson chips.  Get a chip resetter
from MIS.)

If the yellow cart has carbon in it, then the ABW mode printing will use the
least amount of carbon.  In fact, an RGB approach might also work.  (It may
even be capable of being profiled with software.  Are you there David?)

Most on this forum prefer QTR for a rip.  It and the ABW mode printing can
be compared by users.  In either case, however, if it were me, I'd replace
the yellow with carbon.  Printers are better when all the jets are being
used.

Good luck with your B&W.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,
Thanks for the quick reply. My questions to your response:

-²So, while it's slightly more work, I like replacing the yellow cart with
one
that has carbon in it. Carbon is, in effect, a low gamut yellow -- without
the problems of a color pigment. MIS carbon (LLK or the standard light
carbon I mentioned in a previous post) is ideal for this purpose -- and
cheap in bulk. (The MIS spongeless carts are excellent. Be sure to have the
correct chip on the cart. You can re-use Epson chips. Get a chip resetter
from MIS.)²

What if I want to maintain color functionality of the printer? Optimally, I
want to able to switch from color to B&W (frequently if necessary) and I
know too little about using third party inks and configuring hardware for
the conversion to actually feel confident to do it.

³Most on this forum prefer QTR for a rip. It and the ABW mode printing can
be compared by users. In either case, however, if it were me, I'd replace
the yellow with carbon. Printers are better when all the jets are being
used.²

I¹m not quite there yet on jargon...Are you saying replace the yellow with a
different yellow or another K?

Another newbie question: Best profiles‹from paper manufacturer,
self-produced from a spectrometer or mail order to an agency?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > ... I like replacing the yellow cart with one
> > that has carbon in it. Carbon is, in effect, a low gamut
> > yellow -- without the problems of a color pigment.
> >  MIS carbon (LLK or the standard light
> > carbon I mentioned in a previous post) is ideal for this purpose --
> >  and cheap in bulk. (The MIS spongeless carts are excellent.
> >  Be sure to have the correct chip on the cart. 
> > You can re-use Epson chips. Get a chip resetter from MIS.)²

>What if I want to maintain color functionality of the printer?

For full color you'd need to put the yellow cart back in.  Whether swapping
a single cart is worth the effort is too individual for me to answer.

> Optimally, I want to able to switch from color to B&W 
>(frequently if necessary) ...

Then either the ABW mode or QTR would be the methods you might want to use.

>...Are you saying replace the yellow with a different yellow or another K?

For the best B&W, I recommend replacing the yellow with another light ink
that is composed of carbon.



Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,
Can you recommend a site/store that would sell the light ink, carbon? Thanks
much...

On 9/11/06 3:51 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

>  
>  
>  
> 
>>> > > ... I like replacing the yellow cart with one
>>> > > that has carbon in it. Carbon is, in effect, a low gamut
>>> > > yellow -- without the problems of a color pigment.
>>> > >  MIS carbon (LLK or the standard light
>>> > > carbon I mentioned in a previous post) is ideal for this purpose --
>>> > >  and cheap in bulk. (The MIS spongeless carts are excellent.
>>> > >  Be sure to have the correct chip on the cart.
>>> > > You can re-use Epson chips. Get a chip resetter from MIS.)²
> 
>> >What if I want to maintain color functionality of the printer?
> 
> For full color you'd need to put the yellow cart back in.  Whether swapping
> a single cart is worth the effort is too individual for me to answer.
> 
>> > Optimally, I want to able to switch from color to B&W
>> >(frequently if necessary) ...
> 
> Then either the ABW mode or QTR would be the methods you might want to use.
> 
>> >...Are you saying replace the yellow with a different yellow or another K?
> 
> For the best B&W, I recommend replacing the yellow with another light ink
> that is composed of carbon.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 
>  
>     


-- 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, FRD <f.dz@...> wrote:
>
> Hey everyone. This looks exactly like the group I've been looking for.
> 
> I just got an EPSON 2400 and am wondering if 3rd Party RIPs such as
> ImagePrint or QTR are necessary or if the existing drivers are
sufficient.
> 
> I have a ton of questions so I appreciate everyone's help and patience.

I've had my R2400 since January, using OEM inks. It's a great printer.
The canned profiles from Epson are pretty good if you're using their
paper, and some of the 3rd party paper manufacturers have profiles of
varying quality that you can download. I prefer using custom profiles
though; for color work this gives me extremely consistent results and
even the B/W prints are pretty good although I've found the results
are even better when using QuadTone RIP for the B/W images.

I'd suggest giving Quadtone RIP a try, it's shareware so it won't cost
you anything and you can keep using the original inks. QTR ships with
support for two papers with the 2400: Ilford Smooth Pearl and Epson
Enhanced Matte. I recently posted profiles for Hanhnemuhle Photo Rag
in the QTR Yahoo group, and will soon be posting profiles for Innova
F-Type Gloss.

Hello Frank,

>I just got an EPSON 2400 and am wondering if 3rd Party RIPs such as
>ImagePrint or QTR are necessary or if the existing drivers are 
>sufficient.

The Epson driver in ABW mode does an excellent job.  There is an
article (#9 at the link below) which outlines an easy workflow for
getting top notch results using the 2400 as is.  There is nothing else
to buy and nothing to lose by giving it a try.  You will not only gain
valuable experience, but will have a frame of reference to compare
with if you decide to try other approaches, such as using a RIP and/or
other inks.  The article contains a step-by-step outline for setting
up the printer and has lots of helpful tips.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I'm in the UK and have just taken delivery of the fist box of crane silver
rag, and on first impressions it's an epiphany. It really does have the feel
of fibre paper. Very nice indeed. Nice rich tones and good blacks. The
problem is the cost - I paid UKP 44 including vat and postage for 25 sheets
of A4.

Now I see I can get it for USD 36 + postage + UK tax from MIS, which is
pretty good (as I am planning an order soon), but I am off on holiday to New
England in October so I thought I would see if I could get some boxes while
I was there. So... could anyone recommend any shops in MA, RI or CT to get
some? Prices would be helpful too.

As I said, I am impressed with the paper - I am using UT3D and Paul Roark's
CSR UPG N1 curve. I also tried the Kirkland warm glossy curve, and this
seems to work well on the paper. Slightly lighter than the screen says, but
not much.

One thing I did notice was that if I used the settings "best photo" I got
visible banding. I switched to "photo RPM" and "super micro weave" and this
was much better. It does take a long time to print though.

Thanks in advance for any assistance on this.

Steve Taylor

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/444 - Release Date: 11/09/2006

Steve,
I'm in the Boston area. I can give some good recs for camera stores. Not
sure what their paper stock is like, but I can tell you the ones that
generally have a good reputation.

Email me off list if you're interested.


On 9/11/06 5:09 PM, "Steve Taylor" <ts01@...> wrote:

> I'm in the UK and have just taken delivery of the fist box of crane silver
> rag, and on first impressions it's an epiphany. It really does have the feel
> of fibre paper. Very nice indeed. Nice rich tones and good blacks. The
> problem is the cost - I paid UKP 44 including vat and postage for 25 sheets
> of A4.
> 
> Now I see I can get it for USD 36 + postage + UK tax from MIS, which is
> pretty good (as I am planning an order soon), but I am off on holiday to New
> England in October so I thought I would see if I could get some boxes while
> I was there. So... could anyone recommend any shops in MA, RI or CT to get
> some? Prices would be helpful too.
> 
> As I said, I am impressed with the paper - I am using UT3D and Paul Roark's
> CSR UPG N1 curve. I also tried the Kirkland warm glossy curve, and this
> seems to work well on the paper. Slightly lighter than the screen says, but
> not much.
> 
> One thing I did notice was that if I used the settings "best photo" I got
> visible banding. I switched to "photo RPM" and "super micro weave" and this
> was much better. It does take a long time to print though.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any assistance on this.
> 
> Steve Taylor

--

>Can you recommend a site/store that would sell the light ink, carbon? 

There are several options here.  I've mentioned MIS LLK, standard light
carbon (LC), and EZ-W as light carbon inks that I think allow the 2400 to
print better B&Ws with its Advanced B&W mode printing when they are
substituted for the yellow ink.


I just put an EZ-Warm cart into the 2400 yellow spot and found that the chip
I used for the C88 is accepted by the 2400.  The images produced look so
close to the same as the LLK or LC versions, that I think the easiest thing
might be to just buy an MIS EZ-Warm Yellow cart for testing.  See
http://www.inksupply.com/utez.cfm  As far as I know, the cart I was using in
the C88 had the standard C84 - C88 chip on it.

One would expect the EZ-W ink in the Yellow position to cause more roughness
in the highlights.  To test this, I scanned test strips that were printed
exactly the same on the 2400.  One had LLK in the Y spot.  One had EZ-W in
the Y spot.  Oddly, the EZ-W turned in better standard deviations than did
the LLK.  I'm not sure I understand why, but the measures were consistent.
In the 1600 dpi scan, the cyan and magenta dots are what show the most, by
far.  Under a loupe, I can see not differences.

He spectro curves show the image with the EZ-W in the Y spot was a bit
denser, but it was such a small amount that it's not significant.

So, the bottom line may be that the EZ-W is the best substitute carbon for
the 2400 Y spot.  The C86-88 EZ-W-Yellow carts and chips appear to work as
is in the 2400.

If you do want to go with a lighter carbon, MIS sells the standard light
carbon in several inksets, both in both carts and bulk.  The UT-R2-Warm LC
will work.  See http://www.inksupply.com/utr2.cfm#ubi   Although the carts
are the same as in the 2400, you'd also need a 2400 yellow chip.  You can
either buy these from MIS or take the one off the Epson cart.  I use a small
piece of tape across the top of the chip to hold them in place.  (Never
install a cart without a chip.  It can wreck your printer.)  As a practical
matter, the EZ-W Yellow is an easier way to go.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> 
> >Can you recommend a site/store that would sell the light ink, carbon? 
> 
> There are several options here.  I've mentioned MIS LLK, standard light
> carbon (LC), and EZ-W as light carbon inks that I think allow the 2400 to
> print better B&Ws with its Advanced B&W mode printing when they are
> substituted for the yellow ink.


With the LLK or EZ- W in the Y position, can you print cool, neutral, or warm tones?  

As a matter of interest I was looking at some 8.5 by 11 prints that I printed with the C86 with 
the EZ-N and EZ-W cartridges and they sure look good.  I tried all kinds of variations of 
subtituting the N and W  cartridges, It is easy to use and the prints are great, if I could have 
printed 13 by 19 I would have stayed with the EZ inks.

Martin

> >... MIS LLK, standard light carbon (LC), and EZ-W ...
> > I think allow the 2400 to print better B&Ws with its 
> > Advanced B&W mode printing when they are
> > substituted for the yellow ink.

>With the LLK or EZ- W in the Y position, can you print cool, 
>neutral, or warm tones? 

The lack of a yellow limits only the warm side.  There, however, I've
printed a very nice warm with ABW settings (30, 68).  On Crane Silver Rag,
this results in a midtone Lab (a, b) of (5, 3.4).  For pure carbon, you'd
have to use QTR.  The (30, 68) setting makes a warm print that does not have
the yellow look of the carbon, which some would see as an improvement.  Of
course, pure carbon would be the most lightfast.

>As a matter of interest I was looking at some 8.5 by 11 prints 
> that I printed with the C86 with the EZ-N and EZ-W cartridges 
>and they sure look good. I tried all kinds of variations of 
>substituting the N and W cartridges, It is easy to use and the 
>prints are great, if I could have 
>printed 13 by 19 I would have stayed with the EZ inks.

Yes, if the C88 came in larger sizes, it might be the only printer I'd need.
The CSR prints I'm getting from it are as good as any B&W I've seen.
(Though I do still use matte paper for the large prints, and the 220 is
better with matte paper.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thank you all for your knowledgeable responses. Your reputations certainly
precede you as I discovered going through all the linked sources.

I think I¹ll stick with Adv. BW Mode on my epson 2400 and experiment with
QTR and a carbon cart to replace the yellow once it gets depleted.

I use ConverttoB&W Pro for all my B&W conversions in Photoshop. I love the
interface and the output. It really shines with toned images. I¹m so new to
B&W and not having a film background I¹m still trying to wrap my mind about
the different ³classical² toning effects and how I can reproduce it with
ConverttoB&W. 

My question is what settings should I have in ABW mode to maintain the toned
look I¹ve so carefully built in PS? Should it be considered a neutral print?

Thanks again gentlemen.



On 9/11/06 4:57 PM, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:

>  
>  
>  
> 
> Hello Frank,
> 
>> >I just got an EPSON 2400 and am wondering if 3rd Party RIPs such as
>> >ImagePrint or QTR are necessary or if the existing drivers are
>> >sufficient.
> 
> The Epson driver in ABW mode does an excellent job.  There is an
> article (#9 at the link below) which outlines an easy workflow for
> getting top notch results using the 2400 as is.  There is nothing else
> to buy and nothing to lose by giving it a try.  You will not only gain
> valuable experience, but will have a frame of reference to compare
> with if you decide to try other approaches, such as using a RIP and/or
> other inks.  The article contains a step-by-step outline for setting
> up the printer and has lots of helpful tips.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> 
>  
>     


-- 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Frank,

>I use ConverttoB&W Pro for all my B&W conversions in Photoshop. I
>love the interface and the output. It really shines with toned 
>images. I¹m so new to B&W and not having a film background I¹m 
>still trying to wrap my mind about the different ³classical² toning 
>effects and how I can reproduce it with ConverttoB&W. 

>My question is what settings should I have in ABW mode to maintain 
>the toned look I¹ve so carefully built in PS? Should it be 
>considered a neutral print?

I don't have experience with that software but am assuming that it's a
color image if you can see toning effects.  The ABW mode assumes it's
dealing with a BW image, and you have to "dial in" whatever tone you
want with the controls.  Even though the image is RGB, I think the
driver will do some sort of BW conversion (probably desaturation) and
then start from there as if it was a BW image.  So your toning will be
lost and you'll probably have less control over the result (some of
the grayscale values may change) than if you converted the image to
grayscale yourself and do the toning with the ABW controls.

The alternative is to not use ABW mode, but print it as a color image.
 In that case you'll have to deal with color management and all that
goes with it in order to make the print look like what you see on
screen.  This can be done but is more difficult and time consuming,
and loses the advantages of ease and simplicity that are outlined in
the article.  Plus, the print will likely have much more color ink in
it, where the ABW print will have more of the 3 blacks and less color ink.

Either way can result in beautiful prints, but they are two very
different paths.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton et al.,
Yes, Convert to B&W Pro does in fact maintain RGB mode.

If AB&W on the Epson driver is going to wash the tone out, that will be very
unfortunate.

So the downside to printing in color is lightfastness, perhaps more
metamerism/bronzing?

Would Quadtone RIP make a difference?

There may not be a satisfactory answer, but I really like CtB&W a LOT.



On 9/13/06 9:10 AM, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:

>  
>  
>  
> 
> Hello Frank,
> 
>> >I use ConverttoB&W Pro for all my B&W conversions in Photoshop. I
>> >love the interface and the output. It really shines with toned
>> >images. I¹m so new to B&W and not having a film background I¹m
>> >still trying to wrap my mind about the different ³classical² toning
>> >effects and how I can reproduce it with ConverttoB&W.
> 
>> >My question is what settings should I have in ABW mode to maintain
>> >the toned look I¹ve so carefully built in PS? Should it be
>> >considered a neutral print?
> 
> I don't have experience with that software but am assuming that it's a
> color image if you can see toning effects.  The ABW mode assumes it's
> dealing with a BW image, and you have to "dial in" whatever tone you
> want with the controls.  Even though the image is RGB, I think the
> driver will do some sort of BW conversion (probably desaturation) and
> then start from there as if it was a BW image.  So your toning will be
> lost and you'll probably have less control over the result (some of
> the grayscale values may change) than if you converted the image to
> grayscale yourself and do the toning with the ABW controls.
> 
> The alternative is to not use ABW mode, but print it as a color image.
>  In that case you'll have to deal with color management and all that
> goes with it in order to make the print look like what you see on
> screen.  This can be done but is more difficult and time consuming,
> and loses the advantages of ease and simplicity that are outlined in
> the article.  Plus, the print will likely have much more color ink in
> it, where the ABW print will have more of the 3 blacks and less color ink.
> 
> Either way can result in beautiful prints, but they are two very
> different paths.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> 
>  
>     


-- 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

QuadToneRIP and Epson ABW are both grayscale print drivers.  Any color that
you edit in RGB will be lost.  If you want RGB color to be maintained then you
must use a color printing workflow.  The disadvantage with this for the most
part is that too much color ink is used resulting in color casts and metamerism.
Most of the efforts for B&W printing focus on reducing the amount of color ink.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, FRD <f.dz@...> wrote:

>
> Clayton et al.,
> Yes, Convert to B&W Pro does in fact maintain RGB mode.
> 
> If AB&W on the Epson driver is going to wash the tone out, that will be very
> unfortunate.
> 
> So the downside to printing in color is lightfastness, perhaps more
> metamerism/bronzing?
> 
> Would Quadtone RIP make a difference?
> 
> There may not be a satisfactory answer, but I really like CtB&W a LOT.
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/13/06 9:10 AM, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:
> 
> >  
> >  
> >  
> > 
> > Hello Frank,
> > 
> >> >I use ConverttoB&W Pro for all my B&W conversions in Photoshop. I
> >> >love the interface and the output. It really shines with toned
> >> >images. I¹m so new to B&W and not having a film background I¹m
> >> >still trying to wrap my mind about the different ³classical² toning
> >> >effects and how I can reproduce it with ConverttoB&W.
> > 
> >> >My question is what settings should I have in ABW mode to maintain
> >> >the toned look I¹ve so carefully built in PS? Should it be
> >> >considered a neutral print?
> > 
> > I don't have experience with that software but am assuming that it's a
> > color image if you can see toning effects.  The ABW mode assumes it's
> > dealing with a BW image, and you have to "dial in" whatever tone you
> > want with the controls.  Even though the image is RGB, I think the
> > driver will do some sort of BW conversion (probably desaturation) and
> > then start from there as if it was a BW image.  So your toning will be
> > lost and you'll probably have less control over the result (some of
> > the grayscale values may change) than if you converted the image to
> > grayscale yourself and do the toning with the ABW controls.
> > 
> > The alternative is to not use ABW mode, but print it as a color image.
> >  In that case you'll have to deal with color management and all that
> > goes with it in order to make the print look like what you see on
> > screen.  This can be done but is more difficult and time consuming,
> > and loses the advantages of ease and simplicity that are outlined in
> > the article.  Plus, the print will likely have much more color ink in
> > it, where the ABW print will have more of the 3 blacks and less color ink.
> > 
> > Either way can result in beautiful prints, but they are two very
> > different paths.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > 
> >  
> >     
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Frank!

I gather that you like the toning aspect of Convert to BW Pro. But 
if you are ready to ditch the toning tab control, then you can still 
use the other excellent controls of Convert to B&W Pro to arrive at 
a greyscale image. Use it only up till the toning part (filter 
effects, film spectral sensitivity, paper/film exposure - everything 
except toning TAB). When you ar happy with the result, convert it to 
Greyscale and you have a greyscale image ready for ABW or QTR. 

There is nothing intrinsically RGBish about Convert to B&W Pro 
(excepting the toning tab). All methods of conversion to BW that 
involve Channel Mixer rely on RGB channels and conversion to 
Greyscale is the last step in that process.

dizpark



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, FRD <f.dz@...> 
wrote:
>
> Clayton et al.,
> Yes, Convert to B&W Pro does in fact maintain RGB mode.
> 
> If AB&W on the Epson driver is going to wash the tone out, that 
will be very
> unfortunate.
> 
> So the downside to printing in color is lightfastness, perhaps more
> metamerism/bronzing?
> 
> Would Quadtone RIP make a difference?
> 
> There may not be a satisfactory answer, but I really like CtB&W a 
LOT.
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/13/06 9:10 AM, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:
> 
> >  
> >  
> >  
> > 
> > Hello Frank,
> > 
> >> >I use ConverttoB&W Pro for all my B&W conversions in 
Photoshop. I
> >> >love the interface and the output. It really shines with toned
> >> >images. I¹m so new to B&W and not having a film background I¹m
> >> >still trying to wrap my mind about the different ³classical² 
toning
> >> >effects and how I can reproduce it with ConverttoB&W.
> > 
> >> >My question is what settings should I have in ABW mode to 
maintain
> >> >the toned look I¹ve so carefully built in PS? Should it be
> >> >considered a neutral print?
> > 
> > I don't have experience with that software but am assuming that 
it's a
> > color image if you can see toning effects.  The ABW mode assumes 
it's
> > dealing with a BW image, and you have to "dial in" whatever tone 
you
> > want with the controls.  Even though the image is RGB, I think 
the
> > driver will do some sort of BW conversion (probably 
desaturation) and
> > then start from there as if it was a BW image.  So your toning 
will be
> > lost and you'll probably have less control over the result (some 
of
> > the grayscale values may change) than if you converted the image 
to
> > grayscale yourself and do the toning with the ABW controls.
> > 
> > The alternative is to not use ABW mode, but print it as a color 
image.
> >  In that case you'll have to deal with color management and all 
that
> > goes with it in order to make the print look like what you see on
> > screen.  This can be done but is more difficult and time 
consuming,
> > and loses the advantages of ease and simplicity that are 
outlined in
> > the article.  Plus, the print will likely have much more color 
ink in
> > it, where the ABW print will have more of the 3 blacks and less 
color ink.

> > 
> > Either way can result in beautiful prints, but they are two very
> > different paths.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > 
> >  
> >     
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

>... If you want RGB color to be maintained then you
> must use a color printing workflow. 
> The disadvantage with this for the most part is that 
> too much color ink is used resulting in color casts and metamerism.
> Most of the efforts for B&W printing focus on reducing the amount 
> of color ink.


I think the 2400 with carbon in the yellow cart may allow a limited RGB
workflow that uses minimum color inks.  I would assume that less LK and LLK
would be used in a RGB mode as opposed to ABW mode, but with no yellow ink,
and only carbon to get to yellow, a neutral tone will have to be produced by
only carbon and the minimum color pigments.

I am not proficient in profiling software, but it would be an interesting
experiment to see if just a standard RGB profiling software package could
deal with a 2400 "Y=Carbon" inkset.

To get some idea of the quality that such an approach might result in, I
made a PS curve to adjust a grayscale test strip to print relatively neutral
with the Y=Carbon variation.  The curve is a simple one with only 3 internal
points per curve -- at 25%, 50% and 75%.  It was put into an ICC using Roy's
Create ICC-RGB program.  A grayscale 21-step test strip printed with it
looks very good (printed on Kirkland glossy).  

I suspected the highlights might be where the largest differences would
appear.  So, I scanned those of the Y=Carbon (EZW) variation in both ABW and
RGB modes.  The link below is to the scanned image.  For comparison, a 2400
OEM ABW mode test strip was also scanned.  I have also included the Lab A &
B distribution of the test strip.  See
http://home1.gte.net/res0a2zt/2400_RGB_Y=EZW.jpg  

Using the Photoshop histogram's Standard Deviation measure to be objective,
the ABW Y=EZW has the lowest (best) reading.  The RGB Y=EZW is second best.
And the standard full inkset ABW mode is, according to this measure, the
roughest (due to the higher color content I assume).

Visually, the prints all look good.

I will not have time until next week to see what the range of this RGB
approach might be, and frankly, I'd use ABW mode for most.  However, if some
profiling software can deal with the Y-Carbon variation, it might be
interesting and useful for some images, like split toning.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Hi guys,
Just picked up an Epson 1200 from the thrift store for a 1$. Wanted to 
start doing some b&w printing. Should I hang onto it or get something 
newer? Also any recommendations on which ink set to use and company 
brand to try?
Thank you,
bub

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, FRD <f.dz@...> 
wrote:
>
> Clayton et al.,
> Yes, Convert to B&W Pro does in fact maintain RGB mode.
> 

I am a huge fan of B&W Pro conversion - The best part is you have a 
large degree of intuitive control over the conversion of your color 
image to B&W. The result is an RGB file, but you can always convert to 
greyscale. The pre-filters alone are worth it (I didn't know how 
useful magenta filter was until I tried it) with the added bonus of 
being able to toy with digital "exposures" and contrasts. 

It's like using the channel mixer, but in a much more intuitive fashion

my two cents

Brian