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Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-05 by jsstapen

I am having problems printing black and white with my epson 2200. When
I set the printer to color ink, the print comes out bluish and set to
only black ink, the print comes out brownish. I was told to always set
the paper to bright white watercolor, this helps a little, but then
the print is slightly bluish-greenish???? It's imperative that I print
black an white without these others tones. Please help! Any advice is
greatly appreciated.
Thank You

RE: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: jsstapen [mailto:jsstapen@...]
>
> I am having problems printing black and white with my epson 2200. When
> I set the printer to color ink, the print comes out bluish and set to
> only black ink, the print comes out brownish. I was told to always set
> the paper to bright white watercolor, this helps a little, but then
> the print is slightly bluish-greenish???? It's imperative that I print
> black an white without these others tones. Please help! Any advice is
> greatly appreciated.

Without a custom profile, you'll only get close, not perfect. With a custom
profile, you can get much closer, but even then it won't be absolutely
perfect. I've heard Bill Atkinson's profiles are better than the stock ones,
but I don't know where to get them. Perhaps you can find them through
Google.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by Clayton Jones

jsstapen

>only black ink, the print comes out brownish. 
>Please help! Any advice is greatly appreciated.

There are several options for the Black Only (BO) technique.  First
the inks.  The 2200 comes with Photo Black installed.  This is the
warmest of them all and has the poorest Dmax, so is pretty much
unsuitable for matte papers.

The Epson Matte Black ink is considerably less warm than Photo Black,
and has excellent Dmax.  It makes really nice warm tone prints.

Then there is the MIS Eboni, probably the most popular ink among the
BO users (I'm currently participating in a BO print exchange, and so
far most are using Eboni).  While still a bit warm, it is less warm
than Matte Black and has excellent Dmax.  So right away we have two
color tones to choose from.

Now for the paper.  Photo Rag (PR) pretty much sets the standard for
Dmax and all around beauty, and Eboni BO on PR is a bit less warm than
on EEM.  So with Eboni on PR we have a just slightly warm print.  By
themselves they look neutral.  They only look warm next to a neutral
print.

Now for some really good news.  I've been testing some papers from
Hawk Mountain and have found two that produce prints that can compete
with PR, and (using Eboni), they produce even cooler prints.  The
Merlin Smooth makes a print that looks like my old favorite Ilford MG
II with Dektol, mildly cool, very pretty (my favorite).  The Condor BW
makes a steely cold print that looks like selenium toned Oriental
Seagull.  Really intense, the Ansel Adams look.

(I also tried their Osprey papers - don't bother, they aren't in the
same league)

Another nice thing is that these papers have contrast curves similar
to PR.  This means we can print the same image on all of them without
needing to tweak the image.  So with these three papers we can print
everything from chilly cold to mildly cool to slightly warm

I have also been testing Epson Velvet Fine Art.  It's a gorgeous warm
tone paper with intense Dmax, depth, and similar contrast to the
others.  So that adds a fourth option to the lineup, a full range of
tones to choose from.

All these tests were done using Eboni.  I haven't tried them with
Matte Black yet.

A lot of people prefer the BO technique over the other systems. 
Here's a quote from an email I received today:

 "I see the BO prints I've made on my 1280 as superior 
 in almost every way to what I've printed using the current 
 UT and UT2 inks. Perhaps the most outstanding feature is 
 the clean tonal separation, instead of the greyish flatness
 I usually get when printing with quad/hextones."

You can read more about it on the web site below.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

RE: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by Tom Baker

You can get to Atkinson's profiles through the Epson support site.
 
Tom Baker


"Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...> wrote:
> From: jsstapen [mailto:jsstapen@...]
>
> I am having problems printing black and white with my epson 2200. When
> I set the printer to color ink, the print comes out bluish and set to
> only black ink, the print comes out brownish. I was told to always set
> the paper to bright white watercolor, this helps a little, but then
> the print is slightly bluish-greenish???? It's imperative that I print
> black an white without these others tones. Please help! Any advice is
> greatly appreciated.

Without a custom profile, you'll only get close, not perfect. With a custom
profile, you can get much closer, but even then it won't be absolutely
perfect. I've heard Bill Atkinson's profiles are better than the stock ones,
but I don't know where to get them. Perhaps you can find them through
Google.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by michaeljthorpe

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jsstapen" 
<jsstapen@y...> wrote:
> I am having problems printing black and white with my epson 2200. 

Me too!  I have a few ideas to add to this thread. 

There is a very active and helpful group for this printer.  Check 
out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/epson2200/

Google "gray balancer".  Read through the first few pages of hits.  
It took me several evenings to cover the excellent info on the web 
pages and to read the gray balancer manual.  

I am still working on my gray balancer calibration, and it has been 
time consuming.  Even with that said, it's already a world of 
improvement over the color cast of "out of the box" prints.

Good luck,
Mike

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by Steve Kale

Julie

I have an Epson 2100/2200 and have stuck with the Epson UC inks thus far.  I
use Roy Harrington¹s Quadtone RIP and Carl Schofield¹s 2200 curves.  QTR
requires a Mac (or Linux).  I don¹t believe you mentioned what OS you are
using. If you are using a Mac you should definitely give QTR a go (shareware
$50).  Here are some links:

http://harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html

http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/2/wo/CT12ss5AMqT2P2ZI.1/0
.2.1.2.22.31.97.4.35.0.1.1.1?user=scho&fpath=QuadToneRIP%202.0&templatefn=Fi
leSharing2.html

(copy and paste the entire link into your browser)

You will be staggered at the QTR difference vs using Epson colour profiles.
In relation to Black Only printing, I can also recommend using the Matt
Black ink on a variety of matt papers (EEM, HPR, EVFA...).  I have also used
the Photo Black (in BO mode) on Epson Premium Semi-Gloss and found that it
has pretty much exactly the same hue ­ to my eye ­ as the Matt Black on the
same paper....I am now looking at two prints of the same image, one with MK
and the other with PK (each on EPSG) and it is extremely difficult to tell
them apart ­ and neither are brown.  However, even after spraying with Lyson
Print Guard, the matt ink print will smudge so stick with the PK.

If you are interested in better colour profiles, I have made profiles for my
printer using Gretag MacBeth Eye One Photo and would be happy to share these
profiles with you (I have HPR, EEM and EPSG so far).  Each profile is
calculated after drying and then spraying the print with three coats of
Lyson Print Guard.

Cheers

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "jsstapen" <jsstapen@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:35:21 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m
Subject: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

I am having problems printing black and white with my epson 2200. When
I set the printer to color ink, the print comes out bluish and set to
only black ink, the print comes out brownish. I was told to always set
the paper to bright white watercolor, this helps a little, but then
the print is slightly bluish-greenish???? It's imperative that I print
black an white without these others tones. Please help! Any advice is
greatly appreciated.
Thank You







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by Steve Kale

I hate to bluntly contradict a post but I suspect that most on this group
would agree with me when I say the gray balancer is a waste of time...  :-)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "michaeljthorpe" <michaeljthorpe@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 12:30:05 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jsstapen"
<jsstapen@y...> wrote:
> I am having problems printing black and white with my epson 2200.

Me too!  I have a few ideas to add to this thread.

There is a very active and helpful group for this printer.  Check
out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/epson2200/

Google "gray balancer".  Read through the first few pages of hits.
It took me several evenings to cover the excellent info on the web
pages and to read the gray balancer manual.

I am still working on my gray balancer calibration, and it has been
time consuming.  Even with that said, it's already a world of
improvement over the color cast of "out of the box" prints.

Good luck,
Mike







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...]
>
> You will be staggered at the QTR difference vs using Epson colour
> profiles.
> In relation to Black Only printing, I can also recommend using the Matt
> Black ink on a variety of matt papers (EEM, HPR, EVFA...).  I
> have also used
> the Photo Black (in BO mode) on Epson Premium Semi-Gloss and found that it
> has pretty much exactly the same hue \ufffd to my eye \ufffd as the Matt
> Black on the
> same paper....I am now looking at two prints of the same image,
> one with MK
> and the other with PK (each on EPSG) and it is extremely difficult to tell
> them apart \ufffd and neither are brown.  However, even after spraying
> with Lyson
> Print Guard, the matt ink print will smudge so stick with the PK.

You print with matte black on semigloss? That doesn't work--you wind up with
a matte finish in the dark areas and a shiny finish in the light areas. Or
does the spray make that effect go away?

Also, I would definitely call Photo Black on Semigloss (or Premium Luster)
pretty brown, and my spectro agrees with me. Not unpleasant, but not
appropriate for all images.

> If you are interested in better colour profiles, I have made
> profiles for my
> printer using Gretag MacBeth Eye One Photo and would be happy to
> share these
> profiles with you (I have HPR, EEM and EPSG so far).  Each profile is
> calculated after drying and then spraying the print with three coats of
> Lyson Print Guard.

Is that within the GM license agreement? I thought they prohibited giving
profiles made for one printer to someone else for use on another printer.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by Steve Kale

I am going to retract my statement below about there being limited
differences between the hues of BO MK and PK prints.  (It seems I must have
badly labelled some test prints I did!)  BUT I don¹t get brown prints with
PK either!.  Take a look at the following page for the same image printed
with QTR 50:50 cool:warm, BO with Epson Ultrachrome MK and BO Epson
Ultrachrome PK.  The scans were done at 360ppi (same as the original psd
image), Adobe RBG 1998, without colour correction with my (crappy) Epson
Perfection 2450 (no sharpening at print nor scan).  I think they are good
enough to show the differences in hue and even smoothness.  If you click on
a thumbnail it will bring up a slide show.  If you click on an image in the
slide show, it will bring the image in full size.

http://homepage.mac.com/stevekale/PhotoAlbum11.html

If anything I get a very slight purple tint with the PK ­ I assure you it is
BO.  Note that this is PK purchased in Europe.  I think Carl Schofield once
posted a link to a BO image with PK on EPSG (I could not find the link
again) which had a definite brown hue.  Could it be that PK Europe is
different from PK US?

Cheers

Steve

PS I have not measured the dMaxs of the prints but as a quick relative
measure if I take each scan¹s mode to Grayscale, the K% (from the info
palette in PS) of each image¹s top left corner are: original 100%, QTR EEM
87/88%, BO MK EPSG 89/90%, and BO PK EPSG 92/93%.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 16:49:07 +0000
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

Julie

I have an Epson 2100/2200 and have stuck with the Epson UC inks thus far.  I
use Roy Harrington¹s Quadtone RIP and Carl Schofield¹s 2200 curves.  QTR
requires a Mac (or Linux).  I don¹t believe you mentioned what OS you are
using. If you are using a Mac you should definitely give QTR a go (shareware
$50).  Here are some links:

http://harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html

http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/2/wo/CT12ss5AMqT2P2ZI.1/0
.2.1.2.22.31.97.4.35.0.1.1.1?user=scho&fpath=QuadToneRIP%202.0&templatefn=Fi
leSharing2.html

(copy and paste the entire link into your browser)

You will be staggered at the QTR difference vs using Epson colour profiles.
In relation to Black Only printing, I can also recommend using the Matt
Black ink on a variety of matt papers (EEM, HPR, EVFA...).  I have also used
the Photo Black (in BO mode) on Epson Premium Semi-Gloss and found that it
has pretty much exactly the same hue ­ to my eye ­ as the Matt Black on the
same paper....I am now looking at two prints of the same image, one with MK
and the other with PK (each on EPSG) and it is extremely difficult to tell
them apart ­ and neither are brown.  However, even after spraying with Lyson
Print Guard, the matt ink print will smudge so stick with the PK.

If you are interested in better colour profiles, I have made profiles for my
printer using Gretag MacBeth Eye One Photo and would be happy to share these
profiles with you (I have HPR, EEM and EPSG so far).  Each profile is
calculated after drying and then spraying the print with three coats of
Lyson Print Guard.

Cheers

Steve



From: "jsstapen" <jsstapen@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:35:21 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

I am having problems printing black and white with my epson 2200. When
I set the printer to color ink, the print comes out bluish and set to
only black ink, the print comes out brownish. I was told to always set
the paper to bright white watercolor, this helps a little, but then
the print is slightly bluish-greenish???? It's imperative that I print
black an white without these others tones. Please help! Any advice is
greatly appreciated.
Thank You







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by julie stapen

I do use a mac, luckily, and am running 10.2.8
I am thrilled with all of this advice and my clients
will be too, as I've promised I can print black and
white! although I do have to admit, I don't know all
of the terminology. What is a BO, MK, PK? And the QTR
is only 50$ So much less? And where can I purchase the
UC inks(that is ultra chrome, right?)...  Thank you so
much!! I will catch on. promise!
Julie  

--- Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote:
> I am going to retract my statement below about there
> being limited
> differences between the hues of BO MK and PK prints.
>  (It seems I must have
> badly labelled some test prints I did!)  BUT I don\ufffdt
> get brown prints with
> PK either!.  Take a look at the following page for
> the same image printed
> with QTR 50:50 cool:warm, BO with Epson Ultrachrome
> MK and BO Epson
> Ultrachrome PK.  The scans were done at 360ppi (same
> as the original psd
> image), Adobe RBG 1998, without colour correction
> with my (crappy) Epson
> Perfection 2450 (no sharpening at print nor scan). 
> I think they are good
> enough to show the differences in hue and even
> smoothness.  If you click on
> a thumbnail it will bring up a slide show.  If you
> click on an image in the
> slide show, it will bring the image in full size.
> 
> http://homepage.mac.com/stevekale/PhotoAlbum11.html
> 
> If anything I get a very slight purple tint with the
> PK \ufffd I assure you it is
> BO.  Note that this is PK purchased in Europe.  I
> think Carl Schofield once
> posted a link to a BO image with PK on EPSG (I could
> not find the link
> again) which had a definite brown hue.  Could it be
> that PK Europe is
> different from PK US?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve
> 
> PS I have not measured the dMaxs of the prints but
> as a quick relative
> measure if I take each scan\ufffds mode to Grayscale, the
> K% (from the info
> palette in PS) of each image\ufffds top left corner are:
> original 100%, QTR EEM
> 87/88%, BO MK EPSG 89/90%, and BO PK EPSG 92/93%.
> 
> 
> From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>
> Reply-To:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 16:49:07 +0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print
> black and white..
> 
> Julie
> 
> I have an Epson 2100/2200 and have stuck with the
> Epson UC inks thus far.  I
> use Roy Harrington\ufffds Quadtone RIP and Carl
> Schofield\ufffds 2200 curves.  QTR
> requires a Mac (or Linux).  I don\ufffdt believe you
> mentioned what OS you are
> using. If you are using a Mac you should definitely
> give QTR a go (shareware
> $50).  Here are some links:
> 
> http://harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html
> 
>
http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/2/wo/CT12ss5AMqT2P2ZI.1/0
>
.2.1.2.22.31.97.4.35.0.1.1.1?user=scho&fpath=QuadToneRIP%202.0&templatefn=Fi
> leSharing2.html
> 
> (copy and paste the entire link into your browser)
> 
> You will be staggered at the QTR difference vs using
> Epson colour profiles.
> In relation to Black Only printing, I can also
> recommend using the Matt
> Black ink on a variety of matt papers (EEM, HPR,
> EVFA...).  I have also used
> the Photo Black (in BO mode) on Epson Premium
> Semi-Gloss and found that it
> has pretty much exactly the same hue \ufffd to my eye \ufffd
> as the Matt Black on the
> same paper....I am now looking at two prints of the
> same image, one with MK
> and the other with PK (each on EPSG) and it is
> extremely difficult to tell
> them apart \ufffd and neither are brown.  However, even
> after spraying with Lyson
> Print Guard, the matt ink print will smudge so stick
> with the PK.
> 
> If you are interested in better colour profiles, I
> have made profiles for my
> printer using Gretag MacBeth Eye One Photo and would
> be happy to share these
> profiles with you (I have HPR, EEM and EPSG so far).
>  Each profile is
> calculated after drying and then spraying the print
> with three coats of
> Lyson Print Guard.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> From: "jsstapen" <jsstapen@...>
> Reply-To:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:35:21 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print
> black and white..
> 
> I am having problems printing black and white with
> my epson 2200. When
> I set the printer to color ink, the print comes out
> bluish and set to
> only black ink, the print comes out brownish. I was
> told to always set
> the paper to bright white watercolor, this helps a
> little, but then
> the print is slightly bluish-greenish???? It's
> imperative that I print
> black an white without these others tones. Please
> help! Any advice is
> greatly appreciated.
> Thank You
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily
> digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences
> by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of
> earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
> attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be
> removed from the
> membership without notice.
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Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by Steve Kale

Sorry for the shorthand.  BO = black only printing. MK = matt black ink.  PK
= photo black ink.  The UC inks are Epson Ultrachrome inks ie the inks that
come standard with the printer.  A good source is:


Www.atlex.com

When people refer to Eboni they are talking about inks made by MIS.  See
here:

http://www.inksupply.com/

You can use QTR with any ink set if you have the curves (ie have gone
through the calibration process or someone has done it for you).  It sounds
to me like you should get to grips with what can be achieved with the inks
that came with the printer (ie UC) and then expand from there.  The
advantage of using the UC inks is that you can do colour work with the same
printer.  If you are prepared to dedicate the printer to B&W then exploring
the other ink sets (particularly, Paul Roark's new UT-2200 - take a look
through the archives) is worthwhile.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: julie stapen <jsstapen@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:34:09 -0800 (PST)
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..
> 
> I do use a mac, luckily, and am running 10.2.8
> I am thrilled with all of this advice and my clients
> will be too, as I've promised I can print black and
> white! although I do have to admit, I don't know all
> of the terminology. What is a BO, MK, PK? And the QTR
> is only 50$ So much less? And where can I purchase the
> UC inks(that is ultra chrome, right?)...  Thank you so
> much!! I will catch on. promise!
> Julie  
>

RE: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...]
>
> I am going to retract my statement below about there being limited
> differences between the hues of BO MK and PK prints.  (It seems I
> must have
> badly labelled some test prints I did!)  BUT I don\ufffdt get brown prints with
> PK either!.  Take a look at the following page for the same image printed
> with QTR 50:50 cool:warm, BO with Epson Ultrachrome MK and BO Epson
> Ultrachrome PK.  The scans were done at 360ppi (same as the original psd
> image), Adobe RBG 1998, without colour correction with my (crappy) Epson
> Perfection 2450 (no sharpening at print nor scan).  I think they are good
> enough to show the differences in hue and even smoothness.  If
> you click on
> a thumbnail it will bring up a slide show.  If you click on an
> image in the
> slide show, it will bring the image in full size.
>
> http://homepage.mac.com/stevekale/PhotoAlbum11.html
>
> If anything I get a very slight purple tint with the PK \ufffd I
> assure you it is
> BO.  Note that this is PK purchased in Europe.  I think Carl
> Schofield once
> posted a link to a BO image with PK on EPSG (I could not find the link
> again) which had a definite brown hue.  Could it be that PK Europe is
> different from PK US?

That you should get purple is very strange. I get definite brown, and I've
heard numerous other people say the same thing. I printed a Photo Black step
wedge on Premium Luster, which I think is the same paper as Premium
Semigloss with a slightly larger texture, and measured it with the Eye-One.
The patch with the largest deviation from neutral was L=32.5, a=2.87,
b=7.22, which is definitely brownish--orange if it were lighter.

I doubt they sell different color inks in different countries, because
they'd need different profiles for them. However, it's possible that you got
a bad batch of ink. I had that happen once, although that was from Canon. If
you have another cart bought at a different time, I'd pop it in and see if
it produces same results. Or maybe PL really isn't as similar to PSG as it
looks to my eye.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by Carl Schofield

Steve,

Interesting results with the PK on epson semigloss (sprayed?).  Does 
the actual print look purple, or just the scan?  The scans of the two 
prints I posted previously are here:

Eboni on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt PrintShield
http://homepage.mac.com/scho/Eboni.jpg

Epson PK on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt PrintShield
http://homepage.mac.com/scho/PK.jpg

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Friday, February 6, 2004, at 02:12  PM, Steve Kale wrote:

> I am going to retract my statement below about there being limited
> differences between the hues of BO MK and PK prints.  (It seems I must 
> have
> badly labelled some test prints I did!)  BUT I don’t get brown prints 
> with
> PK either!.  Take a look at the following page for the same image 
> printed
> with QTR 50:50 cool:warm, BO with Epson Ultrachrome MK and BO Epson
> Ultrachrome PK.  The scans were done at 360ppi (same as the original 
> psd
> image), Adobe RBG 1998, without colour correction with my (crappy) 
> Epson
> Perfection 2450 (no sharpening at print nor scan).  I think they are 
> good
> enough to show the differences in hue and even smoothness.  If you 
> click on
> a thumbnail it will bring up a slide show.  If you click on an image 
> in the
> slide show, it will bring the image in full size.
>
> http://homepage.mac.com/stevekale/PhotoAlbum11.html
>
> If anything I get a very slight purple tint with the PK – I assure you 
> it is
> BO.  Note that this is PK purchased in Europe.  I think Carl Schofield 
> once
> posted a link to a BO image with PK on EPSG (I could not find the link
> again) which had a definite brown hue.  Could it be that PK Europe is
> different from PK US?
>
> Cheers
>
> Steve
>
> PS I have not measured the dMaxs of the prints but as a quick relative
> measure if I take each scan’s mode to Grayscale, the K% (from the info
> palette in PS) of each image’s top left corner are: original 100%, QTR 
> EEM
> 87/88%, BO MK EPSG 89/90%, and BO PK EPSG 92/93%.

RE: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@...]
>
> Interesting results with the PK on epson semigloss (sprayed?).  Does
> the actual print look purple, or just the scan?  The scans of the two
> prints I posted previously are here:
>
> Eboni on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt PrintShield
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/Eboni.jpg
>
> Epson PK on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt PrintShield
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/PK.jpg

Yep, the PK looks brown to me, and the Eboni doesn't.

So does Eboni have a higher Dmax than PK on Premium Semigloss, Luster or
Glossy? Or is it just more neutral? Does spraying it change the results?

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by Carl Schofield

The Eboni dmax on SG without spraying is pretty low (about 1.5), but 
goes up to about 2.1 after spraying and is neutral.  PK has a higher 
dmax, both before and after spraying but is not neutral - warm brown.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Friday, February 6, 2004, at 03:09  PM, Paul D. DeRocco wrote:

>> From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@...]
>>
>> Interesting results with the PK on epson semigloss (sprayed?).  Does
>> the actual print look purple, or just the scan?  The scans of the two
>> prints I posted previously are here:
>>
>> Eboni on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt PrintShield
>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/Eboni.jpg
>>
>> Epson PK on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt PrintShield
>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/PK.jpg
>
> Yep, the PK looks brown to me, and the Eboni doesn't.
>
> So does Eboni have a higher Dmax than PK on Premium Semigloss, Luster 
> or
> Glossy? Or is it just more neutral? Does spraying it change the 
> results?
>
> --
>
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by Steve Kale

Hi Carl

The print is unsprayed, printed this evening with a newly opened cartridge.
The tint is very subtle - only slightly obvious when next to the other
prints.  Certainly nothing like the obvious difference in the images you've
posted.  It shows up a bit more in the midtones than anywhere else.  I doubt
that if I simply handed someone the print that they would say it had a
purple tint unless I told them so.

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:03:07 -0500
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Interesting results with the PK on epson semigloss (sprayed?).  Does
> the actual print look purple, or just the scan?  The scans of the two
> prints I posted previously are here:
> 
> Eboni on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt PrintShield
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/Eboni.jpg
> 
> Epson PK on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt PrintShield
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/PK.jpg
> 
> Carl
>

Re: Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by Don

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:
> jsstapen
>
> Now for the paper.  Photo Rag (PR) pretty much sets the standard for
> Dmax and all around beauty, and Eboni BO on PR is a bit less warm than
> on EEM.  So with Eboni on PR we have a just slightly warm print.  By
> themselves they look neutral.  They only look warm next to a neutral
> print.
> 
> Now for some really good news.  I've been testing some papers from
> Hawk Mountain and have found two that produce prints that can compete
> with PR, and (using Eboni), they produce even cooler prints.  The
> Merlin Smooth makes a print that looks like my old favorite Ilford MG
> II with Dektol, mildly cool, very pretty (my favorite).  The Condor BW
> makes a steely cold print that looks like selenium toned Oriental
> Seagull.  Really intense, the Ansel Adams look.
> 
ow.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton

Clayton, I have no doubt that YOU ARE THE MAN!

Since reading about your BO technique I have been printing my B&W on
my Epson 2200 since early December.  I print now at 2880 most of the
time and use the Eboni ink from MIS.  These are the best prints I have
ever made including from my darkroom years ago.  I have tried some on
Red River Polar Matte (an acid free paper) and that works well too for
a little cooler tone.

Can't wait to try this new Hawk Mountain paper you have reviewed here.
Is there a site for it or can it be Googled?  Thanks so much for
sharing you Black Only techniques.  I'm a happy guy! ;-)

Ol' Don in Broken Arrow

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by Diana York

Thank you Clayton for your review of our papers for BO printing.

We will be releasing a new paper very soon, a smooth version of Osprey with a new coating which is OBA free (Osprey
Natural) and works much better with the newer inksets and our Merlin paper will have an improved coating also. Condor
and Kestrel will  be released in a Natural version also within the next few months.

We also have a booth at PMA in Las Vegas Feb 12-15 - booth K209. Please stop by and see our papers while you are at the
show.

Diana York mailto:diana@...
Hawk Mountain Papers toll free 888-807-2248
http://www.hawkmtnartpapers.com
100% Cotton Fine Art Digital Print and Photo Papers
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Don" <elixirs4me@...>
<snip> Can't wait to try this new Hawk Mountain paper you have reviewed here.
Is there a site for it or can it be Googled?  Thanks so much for
sharing you Black Only techniques.  I'm a happy guy! ;-)
Ol' Don in Broken Arrow

RE: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by julie stapen

beautiful image! There are such big differences in two
prints. The ebony looking neutral to me and the pk
being very warm, more of what I'm used to getting. I
would love to be able to get prints like yours printed
with the ebony ink, my problem being I print
frequently in both black and white and color. Can I
just switch the inks back and forth? 
Thanks!!
--- "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...> wrote:
> > From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@...]
> >
> > Interesting results with the PK on epson semigloss
> (sprayed?).  Does
> > the actual print look purple, or just the scan? 
> The scans of the two
> > prints I posted previously are here:
> >
> > Eboni on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt
> PrintShield
> > http://homepage.mac.com/scho/Eboni.jpg
> >
> > Epson PK on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt
> PrintShield
> > http://homepage.mac.com/scho/PK.jpg
> 
> Yep, the PK looks brown to me, and the Eboni
> doesn't.
> 
> So does Eboni have a higher Dmax than PK on Premium
> Semigloss, Luster or
> Glossy? Or is it just more neutral? Does spraying it
> change the results?
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@...
> 
> 
> 
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> LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER
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RE: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-06 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@...]
>
> The Eboni dmax on SG without spraying is pretty low (about 1.5), but
> goes up to about 2.1 after spraying and is neutral.  PK has a higher
> dmax, both before and after spraying but is not neutral - warm brown.

Is there any other reason to use Eboni, besides the fact that it's more
neutral in BO printing? If I use a RIP, I can tweak the brown out of the PK
with a small amount of color ink, and still wind up with denser blacks than
Eboni, right?

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by flyfishingusa2002

Today I received in the mail a number of BO prints ( I joined the BO 
print exchange) I can only say if you saw them you would be a total 
convert to BO printing. I personally don't see the need for any other 
ink than black! I have not had time to see which ink was used on all 
of them, but Eboni seems to stand out. I refilled one of my matt 
black 2200 carts so it was really cheap to do. 

Sierra Gold aka Barry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. 
DeRocco" <pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@m...]
> >
> > The Eboni dmax on SG without spraying is pretty low (about 1.5), 
but
> > goes up to about 2.1 after spraying and is neutral.  PK has a 
higher
> > dmax, both before and after spraying but is not neutral - warm 
brown.
> 
> Is there any other reason to use Eboni, besides the fact that it's 
more
> neutral in BO printing? If I use a RIP, I can tweak the brown out 
of the PK
> with a small amount of color ink, and still wind up with denser 
blacks than
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Eboni, right?
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Steve Kale

You can do what I am thinking about doing which is to purchase a CFS for the
2100/2200 - see below:

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/cfs_2200_new.html

(product code CFS-2200-UC)

BUT with Eboni ink in the black slot instead of MIS' Universal Black.  BUT
there are a couple of other BUTs:

1.  BO on Resin Coated papers with Eboni require spraying else they will
smear

2.  I am not sure whether colour prints with Eboni as the black on RC papers
will hold after spraying.  I suspect they will but have not had this
confirmed.  (Eboni was intended for matt papers but people have found that
Eboni works well on RC papers if then sprayed with something like
Printshield.)

Else you can use Epson UCs and simply swap the Eboni cartridge for the UC PK
when you want to do BO.  The permutations are broad.  Remember though that
if you change an ink and are using a colour managed workflow (eg you print
colour with the Epson UCs but with Eboni in the black slot) then you will
need to profile the ink/media combinations you use.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: julie stapen <jsstapen@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:38:29 -0800 (PST)
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..
> 
> beautiful image! There are such big differences in two
> prints. The ebony looking neutral to me and the pk
> being very warm, more of what I'm used to getting. I
> would love to be able to get prints like yours printed
> with the ebony ink, my problem being I print
> frequently in both black and white and color. Can I
> just switch the inks back and forth?
> Thanks!!

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Tom OConnell

> perfect. I've heard Bill Atkinson's profiles are better than the 
stock ones,
> but I don't know where to get them. Perhaps you can find them 
through
> Google.
> -


Paul-

As a result of your post, I checked this out (thanks for the impetus, 
been meaning to do it foreve). It can be found on the epson support 
site...just there for 9600 and 7600 but lots of info that says it 
might work for the 2200 as well.

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/EditorialAnnouncement.jsp?
BV_SessionID=@@@@0153552929.1076115226@@@@&BV_EngineID=dadcjicieehdbfd
mcfjgckidnk.0&BV_UseBVCookie=yes&oid=28155562

I'm possibly using them wrong (but I read and re-read the memo of 
insturction that came with it) but I have a horrible...horrible green 
cast to all BW prints.

If no one else replies that they are using them successfully, I would 
pass.

cheers,

Tom O'Connell

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Carl Schofield

On Friday, February 6, 2004, at 05:52  PM, Paul D. DeRocco wrote:

>> From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@...]
>>
>> The Eboni dmax on SG without spraying is pretty low (about 1.5), but
>> goes up to about 2.1 after spraying and is neutral.  PK has a higher
>> dmax, both before and after spraying but is not neutral - warm brown.
>
> Is there any other reason to use Eboni, besides the fact that it's more
> neutral in BO printing? If I use a RIP, I can tweak the brown out of 
> the PK
> with a small amount of color ink, and still wind up with denser blacks 
> than
> Eboni, right?

Yes, you could do that but you would also have to deal with bronzing 
problems.  Eboni alone +PremierArt PrintShield on semigloss or other RC 
papers will not bronze.  The other non-bronzing alternative that I'm 
now using for RC papers with QTR is no black ink at all.  This way I 
don't have to bother with spraying.  "Plain Jane" Epson Photo Paper 
gives the best performance with the latter technique.

Carl

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Steve Kale

Paul

I can only say that what you see is what I get.  I  have not used UC PK that
much.  In fact it wasn¹t until the flurry of interest in sprayed RC paper
prints that I dragged my PK out of the draw again and gave it a go.  The
bronzing in normal QTR prints on RC even with spraying was too much for my
taste.  BO on RC with spray is better re bronzing but still has awful
reflectance differentials.  I am thinking about getting a (colour) 2200 CFS
from MIS with Eboni instead of universal black but have some hesitations
that I have outlined in other posts.  Plus all I seem to hear about Eboni is
clog after clog after clog ­ please tell me I am wrong on this!  In my
opinion, unless the reflectance differential can be ironed out (either with
Eboni or otherwise) then even BO on RC paper (then sprayed) is out as far as
I am concerned.  Consequently I have turned my attention back to QTR on matt
and trying to understand this better and get the best I can out of it......

Cheers

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:01:40 -0800
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..


That you should get purple is very strange. I get definite brown, and I've
heard numerous other people say the same thing. I printed a Photo Black step
wedge on Premium Luster, which I think is the same paper as Premium
Semigloss with a slightly larger texture, and measured it with the Eye-One.
The patch with the largest deviation from neutral was L=32.5, a=2.87,
b=7.22, which is definitely brownish--orange if it were lighter.

I doubt they sell different color inks in different countries, because
they'd need different profiles for them. However, it's possible that you got
a bad batch of ink. I had that happen once, although that was from Canon. If
you have another cart bought at a different time, I'd pop it in and see if
it produces same results. Or maybe PL really isn't as similar to PSG as it
looks to my eye.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...tcom.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Steve Kale

Hi Carl

You have mentioned this before but can you elaborate.  Which ink set etc?
Also how do you find the Eboni BO on RC re reflectance?  I just don¹t like
the fact that the RC prints I have done effectively have to be viewed square
on because the denser black portions reflect light markedly differently from
the lighter areas.   In the end I keep coming back to my matt prints.

Steve 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 19:56:12 -0500
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..



  The other non-bronzing alternative that I'm
now using for RC papers with QTR is no black ink at all.  This way I
don't have to bother with spraying.  "Plain Jane" Epson Photo Paper
gives the best performance with the latter technique.

Carl





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by John Vitollo

> there for 9600 and 7600 but lots of info that says it 
> might work for the 2200 as well.
> I'm possibly using them wrong (but I read and re-read the memo of 
> insturction that came with it) but I have a horrible...horrible green 
> cast to all BW prints.
> Tom O'Connell

Tom,

Bill's profiles will not work as the head technology is different for the 2200.

But...go to this link for 2200 custom profiles:

http://lenscraft.com/profiles/

Interestingly there are profiles for full color and small/B+W gamut. Read all the fine print 
for the driver settings as it's very important the driver is set for either small or full color!

John V.

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Steve Kale

I have learnt that a colour managed (read: synced) workflow simply will not
yet produce good B&W.  If you use a profile you are still stuck with how the
Epson driver produces shade of grey x, ie the mix of colour inks to produce
grey.  This is the fundamental problem and no profile will help.  Hence the
solution is found in either (a) using a different driver/RIP which better
controls the colour inks (ie QTR or Imageprint) or (b) quad ink sets that
have no colour (except for tinting) or c) black only.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Tom OConnell" <tomoc@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:51:25 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

> perfect. I've heard Bill Atkinson's profiles are better than the
stock ones,
> but I don't know where to get them. Perhaps you can find them
through
> Google.
> -


Paul-

As a result of your post, I checked this out (thanks for the impetus,
been meaning to do it foreve). It can be found on the epson support
site...just there for 9600 and 7600 but lots of info that says it
might work for the 2200 as well.

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/EditorialAnnouncement.jsp?
BV_SessionID=@@@@0153552929.1076115226@@@@&BV_EngineID=dadcjicieehdbfd
mcfjgckidnk.0&BV_UseBVCookie=yes&oid=28155562

I'm possibly using them wrong (but I read and re-read the memo of
insturction that came with it) but I have a horrible...horrible green
cast to all BW prints.

If no one else replies that they are using them successfully, I would
pass.

cheers,

Tom O'Connell



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

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FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Steve Kale

I have printed the QTR 21 step linearization grey scale using BO and my PK
cartridge.  I will let it dry overnight and measure it with Eye-One Measure
Tool tomorrow and post the results.

Taking a closer look at the cartridges, I have some which simply have
English text on the cartridge itself and others which have both English and
then French text directly underneath.  I can¹t recall where I bought which.
The one currently in my printer has only English text.  I have no idea if
this is relevant or not.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:01:40 -0800
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..


That you should get purple is very strange. I get definite brown, and I've
heard numerous other people say the same thing. I printed a Photo Black step
wedge on Premium Luster, which I think is the same paper as Premium
Semigloss with a slightly larger texture, and measured it with the Eye-One.
The patch with the largest deviation from neutral was L=32.5, a=2.87,
b=7.22, which is definitely brownish--orange if it were lighter.

I doubt they sell different color inks in different countries, because
they'd need different profiles for them. However, it's possible that you got
a bad batch of ink. I had that happen once, although that was from Canon. If
you have another cart bought at a different time, I'd pop it in and see if
it produces same results. Or maybe PL really isn't as similar to PSG as it
looks to my eye.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...]
>
> I can only say that what you see is what I get.  I  have not used
> UC PK that
> much.  In fact it wasn\ufffdt until the flurry of interest in sprayed RC paper
> prints that I dragged my PK out of the draw again and gave it a go.  The
> bronzing in normal QTR prints on RC even with spraying was too much for my
> taste.  BO on RC with spray is better re bronzing but still has awful
> reflectance differentials.  I am thinking about getting a
> (colour) 2200 CFS
> from MIS with Eboni instead of universal black but have some hesitations
> that I have outlined in other posts.  Plus all I seem to hear
> about Eboni is
> clog after clog after clog \ufffd please tell me I am wrong on this!  In my
> opinion, unless the reflectance differential can be ironed out
> (either with
> Eboni or otherwise) then even BO on RC paper (then sprayed) is
> out as far as
> I am concerned.  Consequently I have turned my attention back to
> QTR on matt
> and trying to understand this better and get the best I can out
> of it......

Yeah, bronzing is an issue with PK. I noticed it in an ImagePrint grayscale
print using stock UC inks, because of the increased reliance on the black
ink. But I don't think I'd want to give up the density just so I wouldn't
have to avoid certain viewing angles. And I don't really want to deal with
spraying prints, just to make the ink stick to the paper.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

RE: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...]
>
> I have learnt that a colour managed (read: synced) workflow
> simply will not
> yet produce good B&W.  If you use a profile you are still stuck
> with how the
> Epson driver produces shade of grey x, ie the mix of colour inks
> to produce
> grey.  This is the fundamental problem and no profile will help.
> Hence the
> solution is found in either (a) using a different driver/RIP which better
> controls the colour inks (ie QTR or Imageprint) or (b) quad ink sets that
> have no colour (except for tinting) or c) black only.

The problem isn't color management, it's that the driver only has RGB
inputs. If it took CMYK profiles, that would be a lot more versatile.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

RE: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...]
>
> I have printed the QTR 21 step linearization grey scale using BO and my PK
> cartridge.  I will let it dry overnight and measure it with
> Eye-One Measure Tool tomorrow and post the results.

If you post the Lab values, I can make 3D plots of them.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Carl Schofield

Steve,

I've used this technique with both the UT1 and UT2 inksets and an Epson 
1270 printer.  Only the gray inks (and toner inks with UT1) are used, 
but the dmax is more than adequate (1.8 to 2.2, depending on the paper 
used) without using any black ink.  Roy has QTR profiles for RC papers 
that use no black ink on his website.  There is no gloss differential 
and no bronzing on Epson Photo Paper with either the UT1 or UT2 inks.  
I still see very slight bronzing on semigloss and pearl papers with the 
UT2 inks, but not with the UT1 inks.  I haven't tried this yet with the 
2200, but it should work just as well with either the currently 
available UT inks or upcoming UT22 inks.  I would love to see a 
slightly heavier, acid free paper with the same coating as the Epson 
Photo Paper - nice soft gloss without the distracting reflections the 
other RC papers have.

There is some residual gloss differential with Eboni BO on RC papers 
after spraying with PrintShield, but it is only visible if there are 
large areas of 100% black - probably would be a problem with your 
orchids image unless you use a curve adjustment layer to reduce output 
at 100%, but then you would have to sacrifice a little dmax.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Friday, February 6, 2004, at 08:12  PM, Steve Kale wrote:

> Hi Carl
>
> You have mentioned this before but can you elaborate.  Which ink set 
> etc?
> Also how do you find the Eboni BO on RC re reflectance?  I just don’t 
> like
> the fact that the RC prints I have done effectively have to be viewed 
> square
> on because the denser black portions reflect light markedly 
> differently from
> the lighter areas.   In the end I keep coming back to my matt prints.
>
> Steve
>
> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 19:56:12 -0500
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..
>
>
>
>   The other non-bronzing alternative that I'm
> now using for RC papers with QTR is no black ink at all.  This way I
> don't have to bother with spraying.  "Plain Jane" Epson Photo Paper
> gives the best performance with the latter technique.
>
> Carl

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Steve Kale

Here are the readings.  I am interested as to how you interpret these,
Steve.

LGOROWLENGTH    1

CREATED    "2/7/2004"  # Time: 13:46

INSTRUMENTATION    "Eye One"

MEASUREMENT_SOURCE    ""Illumination=D50    ObserverAngle=2°
WhiteBase=Absolute    Filter=No""

KEYWORD    "SampleID"

KEYWORD    "SAMPLE_NAME"

NUMBER_OF_FIELDS    9

BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT

SampleID    SAMPLE_NAME    GRAY    XYZ_X    XYZ_Y    XYZ_Z    LAB_L    LAB_A
LAB_B

END_DATA_FORMAT

NUMBER_OF_SETS    21

BEGIN_DATA

1    A1    0.00    85.91    89.21    78.16    95.67    -0.19    -3.90

2    B1    5.00    76.66    79.28    70.36    91.36    0.44    -4.57

3    C1    10.00    68.55    70.80    63.12    87.39    0.63    -4.68

4    D1    15.00    61.23    63.21    57.47    83.55    0.66    -5.67

5    E1    20.00    55.21    56.98    52.12    80.17    0.68    -5.81

6    F1    25.00    49.84    51.42    46.90    76.93    0.70    -5.45

7    G1    30.00    44.65    46.17    42.31    73.66    0.38    -5.51

8    H1    35.00    39.01    40.45    37.77    69.79    0.04    -6.25

9    I1    40.00    33.90    35.25    33.46    65.95    -0.32    -6.76

10    J1    45.00    29.54    30.77    28.86    62.31    -0.50    -5.90

11    K1    50.00    25.40    26.55    24.92    58.55    -0.84    -5.65

12    L1    55.00    21.39    22.36    20.76    54.40    -0.78    -4.89

13    M1    60.00    17.67    18.43    17.19    50.01    -0.54    -4.75

14    N1    65.00    14.38    14.98    13.72    45.60    -0.35    -3.76

15    O1    70.00    11.73    12.26    11.17    41.62    -0.64    -3.37

16    P1    75.00    9.21    9.65    8.65    37.21    -0.77    -2.56

17    Q1    80.00    6.55    6.86    6.22    31.48    -0.58    -2.63

18    R1    85.00    4.50    4.68    4.19    25.79    -0.12    -2.01

19    S1    90.00    2.78    2.94    2.71    19.82    -1.10    -2.31

20    T1    95.00    1.15    1.21    1.21    10.61    -0.41    -3.12

21    U1    100.00    0.73    0.77    0.81    6.94    -0.53    -3.21

END_DATA
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:13:22 -0800
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...]
>
> I have printed the QTR 21 step linearization grey scale using BO and my PK
> cartridge.  I will let it dry overnight and measure it with
> Eye-One Measure Tool tomorrow and post the results.

If you post the Lab values, I can make 3D plots of them.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
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- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
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guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Carl Schofield

Hi Steve,

This is very strange indeed.  We seem to be dealing with two completely 
different inks.  The LAB data for my Epson PK printed BO on Epson 
premium semigloss are very different from your data.  For example, at 
the 50% patch my ink reads L=55.39, a=1.95, b=4.04 and your data for 
the 50% patch are L=58.55, a=-0.84, b=-5.65.  The Lab a values vary 
along the red to green axis, with positive values tending towards red 
and negative values towards green.  The Lab b values vary along the 
yellow to blue axis with positive values tending towards yellow and 
negative values towards blue.  So, my data for PK at 50% indicate a 
warm tone based on the positive values for both a and b whereas your 
data indicate a decidedly cool tone based on negative values for both a 
and b.  If you want a visual interpretation of these numbers go to the 
color calculator link below and plug in the Lab data (select D50 
illuminant, 2 degrees observer,  and CIE-L*ab color space first) and 
click start.  You will get a table of the data converted to other color 
spaces and a color chip simulation for that patch.

http://www.easyrgb.com/calculator.php

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 08:49  AM, Steve Kale wrote:

> Here are the readings.  I am interested as to how you interpret these,
> Steve.
>
> LGOROWLENGTH    1
>
> CREATED    "2/7/2004"  # Time: 13:46
>
> INSTRUMENTATION    "Eye One"
>
> MEASUREMENT_SOURCE    ""Illumination=D50    ObserverAngle=2°
> WhiteBase=Absolute    Filter=No""
>
> KEYWORD    "SampleID"
>
> KEYWORD    "SAMPLE_NAME"
>
> NUMBER_OF_FIELDS    9
>
> BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT
>
> SampleID    SAMPLE_NAME    GRAY    XYZ_X    XYZ_Y    XYZ_Z    LAB_L    
> LAB_A
> LAB_B
>
> END_DATA_FORMAT
>
> NUMBER_OF_SETS    21
>
> BEGIN_DATA
>
> 1    A1    0.00    85.91    89.21    78.16    95.67    -0.19    -3.90
>
> 2    B1    5.00    76.66    79.28    70.36    91.36    0.44    -4.57
>
> 3    C1    10.00    68.55    70.80    63.12    87.39    0.63    -4.68
>
> 4    D1    15.00    61.23    63.21    57.47    83.55    0.66    -5.67
>
> 5    E1    20.00    55.21    56.98    52.12    80.17    0.68    -5.81
>
> 6    F1    25.00    49.84    51.42    46.90    76.93    0.70    -5.45
>
> 7    G1    30.00    44.65    46.17    42.31    73.66    0.38    -5.51
>
> 8    H1    35.00    39.01    40.45    37.77    69.79    0.04    -6.25
>
> 9    I1    40.00    33.90    35.25    33.46    65.95    -0.32    -6.76
>
> 10    J1    45.00    29.54    30.77    28.86    62.31    -0.50    -5.90
>
> 11    K1    50.00    25.40    26.55    24.92    58.55    -0.84    -5.65
>
> 12    L1    55.00    21.39    22.36    20.76    54.40    -0.78    -4.89
>
> 13    M1    60.00    17.67    18.43    17.19    50.01    -0.54    -4.75
>
> 14    N1    65.00    14.38    14.98    13.72    45.60    -0.35    -3.76
>
> 15    O1    70.00    11.73    12.26    11.17    41.62    -0.64    -3.37
>
> 16    P1    75.00    9.21    9.65    8.65    37.21    -0.77    -2.56
>
> 17    Q1    80.00    6.55    6.86    6.22    31.48    -0.58    -2.63
>
> 18    R1    85.00    4.50    4.68    4.19    25.79    -0.12    -2.01
>
> 19    S1    90.00    2.78    2.94    2.71    19.82    -1.10    -2.31
>
> 20    T1    95.00    1.15    1.21    1.21    10.61    -0.41    -3.12
>
> 21    U1    100.00    0.73    0.77    0.81    6.94    -0.53    -3.21
>
> END_DATA

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Steve Kale

What is printed on the label on your cartridge?  Not sure I understand the
colour chip simulation.  The colours I see seem to bear no resemblance to
what I see in the printout...left or right side....
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 09:29:46 -0500
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

Hi Steve,

This is very strange indeed.  We seem to be dealing with two completely
different inks.  The LAB data for my Epson PK printed BO on Epson
premium semigloss are very different from your data.  For example, at
the 50% patch my ink reads L=55.39, a=1.95, b=4.04 and your data for
the 50% patch are L=58.55, a=-0.84, b=-5.65.  The Lab a values vary
along the red to green axis, with positive values tending towards red
and negative values towards green.  The Lab b values vary along the
yellow to blue axis with positive values tending towards yellow and
negative values towards blue.  So, my data for PK at 50% indicate a
warm tone based on the positive values for both a and b whereas your
data indicate a decidedly cool tone based on negative values for both a
and b.  If you want a visual interpretation of these numbers go to the
color calculator link below and plug in the Lab data (select D50
illuminant, 2 degrees observer,  and CIE-L*ab color space first) and
click start.  You will get a table of the data converted to other color
spaces and a color chip simulation for that patch.

http://www.easyrgb.com/calculator.php

Carl




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Carl Schofield

My PK cart label has (on top) T0341 Photo Black, made in Japan.  On the 
side it reads EPSON, T0341, Photo Black, Do not remove this label.  
Portions copyright symbol 2001, Seiko Epson Corporation.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 10:10  AM, Steve Kale wrote:

> What is printed on the label on your cartridge?  Not sure I understand 
> the
> colour chip simulation.  The colours I see seem to bear no resemblance 
> to
> what I see in the printout...left or right side....
>
>
> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 09:29:46 -0500
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> This is very strange indeed.  We seem to be dealing with two completely
> different inks.  The LAB data for my Epson PK printed BO on Epson
> premium semigloss are very different from your data.  For example, at
> the 50% patch my ink reads L=55.39, a=1.95, b=4.04 and your data for
> the 50% patch are L=58.55, a=-0.84, b=-5.65.  The Lab a values vary
> along the red to green axis, with positive values tending towards red
> and negative values towards green.  The Lab b values vary along the
> yellow to blue axis with positive values tending towards yellow and
> negative values towards blue.  So, my data for PK at 50% indicate a
> warm tone based on the positive values for both a and b whereas your
> data indicate a decidedly cool tone based on negative values for both a
> and b.  If you want a visual interpretation of these numbers go to the
> color calculator link below and plug in the Lab data (select D50
> illuminant, 2 degrees observer,  and CIE-L*ab color space first) and
> click start.  You will get a table of the data converted to other color
> spaces and a color chip simulation for that patch.
>
> http://www.easyrgb.com/calculator.php
>
> Carl
>

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Steve Kale

Ok, same. Well maybe it is just a curve ball cartridge.  I have a couple
more but I am reluctant to just pop open further cartridges just to test.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 10:14:58 -0500
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

My PK cart label has (on top) T0341 Photo Black, made in Japan.  On the
side it reads EPSON, T0341, Photo Black, Do not remove this label.
Portions copyright symbol 2001, Seiko Epson Corporation.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...]
>
> Here are the readings.  I am interested as to how you interpret these,

I wish I had time to plot these right now, but I'm away for the weekend.
I'll leave your message in my inbox, and plot them against mine (and against
anyone else's who posts in the interim) either tomorrow night or Monday.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

RE: [Digital BW] Epson 2200- need to print black and white..

2004-02-07 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...]
>
> Ok, same. Well maybe it is just a curve ball cartridge.  I have a couple
> more but I am reluctant to just pop open further cartridges just to test.

It's really not a problem. You can swap them back and forth, or leave one
out of the printer until the other runs out, without causing problems.
They're self-sealing.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

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