Digital BW, The Print

Hi Folks,

I am new to b&w printing and trying to get up to speed on all the 
wonderful new options available today. I have the Epson 1280 printer 
and have been venturing into the MIS inks.  I was very pleased with 
the 1280's color prints and saw some very interesting possibilites 
grayscaling some of my color stuff and printing BO.

"Black Only" seems a less steep learning curve than systems such as 
quad tones and my initial results were very pleasing. I basically 
converted my color images into b&w scans using the channel mixer and 
printed  with a simple profile. I got a clog in my black cart that 
did not want to go away(yes I tried all manner of cleaning cycles) I 
popped in my original Epson inkset that came with the 1280 and was 
able to get rid of the clog. I also noticed that the blacks got 
blacker in my images (which I understand is a property of the less 
archivable dyebased Epson inks)

However, when revisiting the  MIS site,  I noticed that they now have 
an Eboni black as part of the Ultra tone set which is supposed to be 
a blacker  black on the EEM I like to use. I like the idea of a more 
archivable injet print.

Questions:

1. Can I pop in a MIS eboni cart next to the non-Ultra tone MIS color cart?
2. Will the eboni cart work if it is installed next to the Epson color cart?

(Obviously, my intent is to use up the color cartridges during 
cleaning cycles without chip to chip conflicts)


3. I notice a marked improvement when printing at 2880 instead of 
1440. In order to have the 2880 setting made available to me, I have 
to choose a paper setting that is other than the matte I am using,. 
Should I do something specific to the profile to otherwise compensate 
for this change?


I apologize if these items have been already thoroughly discussed in 
the archives. The archives (even considering all the info they have 
already given me), tend to ramble on and it is difficult to target 
specific questions.

I welcome your comments,


                                Lincoln
--

Lincoln...I have a 1270 and have put in the Eboni cart with epson 
color carts and dont have any problems with either.  I have been 
using 1400 dpi and have had good success.  Many in this group say 
that u have to go through a cleaning cycle before putting in the 
Eboni to avoid clogs but I have not had any problems whatsoever.  
Good luck

Rick Zeidman
www.morgan-baily.com
--
- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Lincoln Michaud 
<outdoornewmexico@y...> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> 
> I am new to b&w printing and trying to get up to speed on all the 
> wonderful new options available today. I have the Epson 1280 
printer 
> and have been venturing into the MIS inks.  I was very pleased with 
> the 1280's color prints and saw some very interesting possibilites 
> grayscaling some of my color stuff and printing BO.
> 
> "Black Only" seems a less steep learning curve than systems such as 
> quad tones and my initial results were very pleasing. I basically 
> converted my color images into b&w scans using the channel mixer 
and 
> printed  with a simple profile. I got a clog in my black cart that 
> did not want to go away(yes I tried all manner of cleaning cycles) 
I 
> popped in my original Epson inkset that came with the 1280 and was 
> able to get rid of the clog. I also noticed that the blacks got 
> blacker in my images (which I understand is a property of the less 
> archivable dyebased Epson inks)
> 
> However, when revisiting the  MIS site,  I noticed that they now 
have 
> an Eboni black as part of the Ultra tone set which is supposed to 
be 
> a blacker  black on the EEM I like to use. I like the idea of a 
more 
> archivable injet print.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Can I pop in a MIS eboni cart next to the non-Ultra tone MIS 
color cart?
> 2. Will the eboni cart work if it is installed next to the Epson 
color cart?
> 
> (Obviously, my intent is to use up the color cartridges during 
> cleaning cycles without chip to chip conflicts)
> 
> 
> 3. I notice a marked improvement when printing at 2880 instead of 
> 1440. In order to have the 2880 setting made available to me, I 
have 
> to choose a paper setting that is other than the matte I am using,. 
> Should I do something specific to the profile to otherwise 
compensate 
> for this change?
> 
> 
> I apologize if these items have been already thoroughly discussed 
in 

> the archives. The archives (even considering all the info they have 
> already given me), tend to ramble on and it is difficult to target 
> specific questions.
> 
> I welcome your comments,
> 
> 
>                                 Lincoln
> --

Thanks Rick,

Did you notice that your blacks were "blacker" when using the 
eboni cart?  Of course, if you are only printing color, it may be 
difficult to tell.

I have a feeling that any improvements between 1440 and 2880 
dpi print settings may be very content dependant.  I printed 
several b&w  New Mexico White Sands shots and some parts of 
the images showed improvement (strong textural elements)and 
others didn't seem to make any difference.  Of course, if you are 
impatient  to wait for the slow 2880 printing time- you could 
convince yourself there ain't any improvements.  :-)  I used "print 
preview" to organize two identical images side by side(1440 
vs2880) so as to save paper and make a direct comparison. 


                             Lincoln 

-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
"morganbaily2001" <rzeidman@m...> wrote:
> Lincoln...I have a 1270 and have put in the Eboni cart with 
epson 
> color carts and dont have any problems with either.  I have 
been 
> using 1400 dpi and have had good success.  Many in this 
group say 
> that u have to go through a cleaning cycle before putting in the 
> Eboni to avoid clogs but I have not had any problems 
whatsoever.  
> Good luck
> 
> Rick Zeidman
> www.morgan-baily.com
> --
> - In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Lincoln 
Michaud 
> <outdoornewmexico@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Folks,
> > 
> > I am new to b&w printing and trying to get up to speed on all 
the 
> > wonderful new options available today. I have the Epson 
1280 
> printer 
> > and have been venturing into the MIS inks.  I was very 
pleased with 
> > the 1280's color prints and saw some very interesting 
possibilites 
> > grayscaling some of my color stuff and printing BO.
> > 
> > "Black Only" seems a less steep learning curve than 
systems such as 
> > quad tones and my initial results were very pleasing. I 
basically 
> > converted my color images into b&w scans using the 
channel mixer 
> and 
> > printed  with a simple profile. I got a clog in my black cart that 
> > did not want to go away(yes I tried all manner of cleaning 
cycles) 
> I 
> > popped in my original Epson inkset that came with the 1280 
and was 
> > able to get rid of the clog. I also noticed that the blacks got 
> > blacker in my images (which I understand is a property of the 
less 
> > archivable dyebased Epson inks)
> > 
> > However, when revisiting the  MIS site,  I noticed that they 
now 
> have 
> > an Eboni black as part of the Ultra tone set which is 
supposed to 
> be 
> > a blacker  black on the EEM I like to use. I like the idea of a 
> more 
> > archivable injet print.
> > 
> > Questions:
> > 
> > 1. Can I pop in a MIS eboni cart next to the non-Ultra tone MIS 
> color cart?
> > 2. Will the eboni cart work if it is installed next to the Epson 
> color cart?
> > 
> > (Obviously, my intent is to use up the color cartridges during 
> > cleaning cycles without chip to chip conflicts)
> > 
> > 
> > 3. I notice a marked improvement when printing at 2880 
instead of 
> > 1440. In order to have the 2880 setting made available to me, 
I 
> have 
> > to choose a paper setting that is other than the matte I am 
using,. 
> > Should I do something specific to the profile to otherwise 
> compensate 
> > for this change?
> > 
> > 
> > I apologize if these items have been already thoroughly 
discussed 
> in 
> > the archives. The archives (even considering all the info they 
have 

> > already given me), tend to ramble on and it is difficult to target 
> > specific questions.
> > 
> > I welcome your comments,
> > 
> > 
> >                                 Lincoln
> > --

Linc:

You'll find a some people in this group that disparage Black Only
printing and believe it's just inferior to quad or hextone. But, I
sure am not one of them. It works better for me in some images. You
should see the Black Only print that Richard has in the recent ContaxG
print exchange. It was a "WOW!" as his prints usually are. 

I'm about to switch over to Eboni black and UT as soon as my current
bottle (G4 black with FSN-E lighter tones) starts to run low. I don't
think the Eboni is appreciably darker but everyone says it's a better
ink all the way around. I would be hesitant to use Eboni along with
color dye ink as Paul Roark & MIS say that combination can cause
clogs. I think there could be traces of the dye ink picked up on the
black head from the waste pad (below the print head when it's at rest)
and cause potential clogging problems. (someone correct me if you're
doing it successfully)

I can see no difference between printing at 1440 and 2880 dpi other
than print time. For once, I seem to be in the mainstream line of
thinking. But if 2880 works better for you, by all means use it. 

Now you have no excuse for not being in the next ContaxG print exchange. 

Bob Michaels

 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Lincoln Michaud
<outdoornewmexico@y...> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> 
> I am new to b&w printing and trying to get up to speed on all the 
> wonderful new options available today. I have the Epson 1280 printer 
> and have been venturing into the MIS inks.  I was very pleased with 
> the 1280's color prints and saw some very interesting possibilites 
> grayscaling some of my color stuff and printing BO.
> 
> "Black Only" seems a less steep learning curve than systems such as 
> quad tones and my initial results were very pleasing. I basically 
> converted my color images into b&w scans using the channel mixer and 
> printed  with a simple profile. I got a clog in my black cart that 
> did not want to go away(yes I tried all manner of cleaning cycles) I 
> popped in my original Epson inkset that came with the 1280 and was 
> able to get rid of the clog. I also noticed that the blacks got 
> blacker in my images (which I understand is a property of the less 
> archivable dyebased Epson inks)
> 
> However, when revisiting the  MIS site,  I noticed that they now have 
> an Eboni black as part of the Ultra tone set which is supposed to be 
> a blacker  black on the EEM I like to use. I like the idea of a more 
> archivable injet print.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Can I pop in a MIS eboni cart next to the non-Ultra tone MIS
color cart?
> 2. Will the eboni cart work if it is installed next to the Epson
color cart?

> 
> (Obviously, my intent is to use up the color cartridges during 
> cleaning cycles without chip to chip conflicts)
> 
> 
> 3. I notice a marked improvement when printing at 2880 instead of 
> 1440. In order to have the 2880 setting made available to me, I have 
> to choose a paper setting that is other than the matte I am using,. 
> Should I do something specific to the profile to otherwise compensate 
> for this change?
> 
> 
> I apologize if these items have been already thoroughly discussed in 
> the archives. The archives (even considering all the info they have 
> already given me), tend to ramble on and it is difficult to target 
> specific questions.
> 
> I welcome your comments,
> 
> 
>                                 Lincoln
> --

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob 
Michaels" <bob@b...> wrote:
> Linc:
> 
> You'll find a some people in this group that disparage Black 
Only
> printing and believe it's just inferior to quad or hextone. But, I
> sure am not one of them. It works better for me in some 
images. You
> should see the Black Only print that Richard has in the recent 
ContaxG
> print exchange. It was a "WOW!" as his prints usually are. 

*-Hi Bob,

I'm sure Richards image was excellent.   I guess I don't consider 
myself smart enough to just jump into quad or hex prints. In 
addition to that, some of the samples I have been trying in BO 
really blew me away!  They have a 3 dimensional quality I had 
not been expecting.  I think part of this is due to the fact that 
photography in the White Sands lends itself to BO.  Also, the 
bright white of EEM  showing thru' the images really gives them 
an elegant "pop".  Even though I am a fanatic about resolution, 
the '"dots" seem rather '"honest" to me and you have to be 
looking for "trouble" to really notice them.  Normal people (not 
including photographers, architects, engineers, optical 
designers and other fanatics),  would really not notice.  :-)


> I'm about to switch over to Eboni black and UT as soon as my 
current
> bottle (G4 black with FSN-E lighter tones) starts to run low. I 
don't
> think the Eboni is appreciably darker but everyone says it's a 
better

*--I would be happy hear how you make out with UT. 


> ink all the way around. I would be hesitant to use Eboni along 
with
> color dye ink as Paul Roark & MIS say that combination can 
cause
> clogs. I think there could be traces of the dye ink picked up on 
the
> black head from the waste pad (below the print head when it's 
at rest)
> and cause potential clogging problems. (someone correct me 
if you're
> doing it successfully)

*-- I really just plugged in the Epson dye base inks because my 
MIS cart had a clog I could not remove.  I wish I hadn't used the 
dye base cart now.


> 
> I can see no difference between printing at 1440 and 2880 dpi 
other
> than print time. For once, I seem to be in the mainstream line 
of
> thinking. But if 2880 works better for you, by all means use it. 

*-- Well, I can see a pretty significant diff-- as I wrote before, this 
may be due to the fact that I am primarily working on White 
Sands images.


> 
> Now you have no excuse for not being in the next ContaxG print 
exchange. 
> 
> Bob Michaels

*--- Maybe, we'll see if I can get anything good to submit.  At least 
if it is b&w I might get a glimmer of credit.  :-)


                     Linc

Hello Lincoln,

>However, when revisiting the  MIS site,  I noticed that they now
have 
>an Eboni black as part of the Ultra tone set which is supposed to be 
>a blacker  black on the EEM I like to use. I like the idea of a more 
>archivable injet print.

I do BO printing and recently switched to Eboni after using the MIS
FS-K for a long time.  The term "blacker" can mean different things to
different people, so here's what I learned - Eboni is a bit warmer
than fresh FS-K, but not as warm as FS-K after it has warmed.  The
testers say that Eboni warms so little as to be negligible, so the
long term result of Eboni is a cooler tone.  Both have excellent D-max


>3. I notice a marked improvement when printing at 2880 instead of 
>1440. 

I find that the resolution in fine details is much better at 2880.


>In order to have the 2880 setting made available to me, I have 
>to choose a paper setting that is other than the matte I am using,. 
>Should I do something specific to the profile to otherwise
>compensate for this change?

I print at 2880dpi on a 2200 and use the matte paper setting.  


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello Bob,

>You'll find a some people in this group that disparage Black Only
>printing...But I sure am not one of them. It works better for me 
>in some images. 

Nice to see you in here standing up for BO printing.  Hooray!



>I'm about to switch over to Eboni black and UT 

I switched and love the results.



>I don't think the Eboni is appreciably darker 

See my reply to Lincoln about being "blacker"...



> I can see no difference between printing at 1440 and 2880 dpi other
> than print time. For once, I seem to be in the mainstream line of
> thinking. But if 2880 works better for you, by all means use it. 


I switched to a 2200 at 2880 dpi and find that the resolution in fine
details is _greatly_ improved, and the "gritty" look is gone.   I do
everything at 2880 now.  As far as appearance, I think the 2200
handles 2880dpi differently than the 1280 does, and it's also faster.
 It's about as fast at 2880 as my 870 was at 1440.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton wrote,

> I do BO printing and recently switched to Eboni after using the 
MIS
> FS-K for a long time.  The term "blacker" can mean different 
things to
> different people, so here's what I learned - Eboni is a bit 
warmer
> than fresh FS-K, but not as warm as FS-K after it has warmed.  
The
> testers say that Eboni warms so little as to be negligible, so 
the
> long term result of Eboni is a cooler tone.  Both have excellent 
D-max

*-- Thanks for the explanation, Clayton

By the way, your strong endorsement of the BO technique was 
one of the reasons I decided to give it a try. Thanks, I'm glad I did!

  The luster of EEM really shines thru' in my White Sands 
images. Hearing about it is one thing, seeing the results is very 
refreshing.  The clouds really do have a "silver lining" and sand 
textures are delicious. I just hope that  mounting under glass 
does not kill the effect. 
> 
> 
> >3. I notice a marked improvement when printing at 2880 
instead of 
> >1440. 
> 
> I find that the resolution in fine details is much better at 2880.
> 
> 
> >In order to have the 2880 setting made available to me, I have 
> >to choose a paper setting that is other than the matte I am 
using,. 
> >Should I do something specific to the profile to otherwise
> >compensate for this change?
> 
> I print at 2880dpi on a 2200 and use the matte paper setting.  
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton

*--If you choose "Heavy Matte Paper"  with the  1280,  you cannot 
select the fine 2880 print setting(grayed out).  This may be an 
improvement with the 2200, or maybe just a way to allow you to 
print at 2880. I can see no drawbacks when printing matte on the 
"high gloss" setting. I was just concerned that the "high gloss" 
setting might cause the ink to be layed down differently   ie-less 
thick to prevent pooling on a gloss surface. 

 Thanks for your help , Clayton!


                      Lincoln

Alan wrote,

> 
> >I think someone should start a BO list  :-)

*--Naa, it's just a diff medium.  Diff' but not lesser.  I can see 
some images that will just look better with something like the UT 
system.

> 
> >I've been using BO for a book project on a new 1280 and with 
refilled 
> >carts.   After about five full tanks of black - I haven't had to run 
a 
> >cleaning cycle yet - the color cart level indicator shows it is 
nearing 
> >empty.

*--Alan, you can't depend on the onscreen cartridge level 
indicators. They are generated according to how many sheets go 
thru' the printer, rather than how much ink is actually used. I have 
heard of some problems if a color cart runs out and you do not 
notice it. (Drying out?)

  What gives?  Some genius ought to figure out how to use only 
one 
> >color tank at a time to give an assortment of BO choices.

*-- You've got something there. What if you got MIS to fill the 
complete color cart with eboni?  One time you coul print  "c" , one 
time "M".... and so on.   This way, you could use up all the ink. 
> 
> Anybody got a fave BO paper?  I know that depends a lot on the 
image.  My 
> book project has been on Red River #32 Premium Matte 
printed one-side, with 
> little show-through.
> 
> AZ
> 
> 
> Build a Lookaround!
> The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
> NOW SHIPPING
> http://www.panoramacamera.us

*-- I checked out your web site--you've got some pretty interesting 
panoramic photos there!


               Lincoln

At 07:11 AM 11/23/03 +0000, you wrote:
>Hello Bob,
>
> >You'll find a some people in this group that disparage Black Only
> >printing...But I sure am not one of them. It works better for me
> >in some images.
>
>Nice to see you in here standing up for BO printing.  Hooray!
>
>
>
> >I'm about to switch over to Eboni black and UT
>
>I switched and love the results.
>
>
>
> >I don't think the Eboni is appreciably darker
>
>See my reply to Lincoln about being "blacker"...
>
>
>
> > I can see no difference between printing at 1440 and 2880 dpi other
> > than print time. For once, I seem to be in the mainstream line of
> > thinking. But if 2880 works better for you, by all means use it.
>
>
>I switched to a 2200 at 2880 dpi and find that the resolution in fine
>details is _greatly_ improved, and the "gritty" look is gone.   I do
>everything at 2880 now.  As far as appearance, I think the 2200
>handles 2880dpi differently than the 1280 does, and it's also faster.
>  It's about as fast at 2880 as my 870 was at 1440.
>
>Regards,
>Clayton

Clayton,

>I think someone should start a BO list  :-)

>I've been using BO for a book project on a new 1280 and with refilled 
>carts.   After about five full tanks of black - I haven't had to run a 
>cleaning cycle yet - the color cart level indicator shows it is nearing 
>empty.  What gives?  Some genius ought to figure out how to use only one 
>color tank at a time to give an assortment of BO choices.

Anybody got a fave BO paper?  I know that depends a lot on the image.  My 
book project has been on Red River #32 Premium Matte printed one-side, with 
little show-through.

AZ


Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
NOW SHIPPING
http://www.panoramacamera.us

Hello Lincoln,

>*-- Thanks for the explanation, Clayton
>By the way, your strong endorsement of the BO technique was 
>one of the reasons I decided to give it a try. Thanks, I'm glad 
>I did!

You're welcome. 



>The luster of EEM really shines thru'

Wait until you try Photo Rag!  (You aint seen nuthin yet <g>)


>...in my White Sands images. 

It must be great to live out west.  I'd love to spend a lot of time
photographing out there.


>The clouds really do have a "silver lining" and sand textures 
>are delicious.   I just hope that  mounting under glass 
>does not kill the effect. 

Please let us know what your impressions are after you get some
mounted. 


> *--If you choose "Heavy Matte Paper"  with the  1280,  you cannot 
> select the fine 2880 print setting(grayed out).  This may be an 
> improvement with the 2200, or maybe just a way to allow you to 
> print at 2880. 

Ah, I didn't know that.  It's different with the 2200.



>I can see no drawbacks when printing matte on the 
>"high gloss" setting. I was just concerned that the "high gloss" 
>setting might cause the ink to be layed down differently   ie-less 
>thick to prevent pooling on a gloss surface. 

Well, it's the final result that counts.  I guess it's worth trying
all the settings to see what happens...just use the one that gives the
best results.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello Alan,

>I think someone should start a BO list  :-)

LOL!  No need for it, really.  It just needs to be treated like any
other method.


>I've been using BO for a book project on a new 1280 and with 
>refilled carts.   

Sounds interesting, what kind of project?  What ink?


>After about five full tanks of black - I 
>haven't had to run a cleaning cycle yet - the color cart level
>indicator shows it is nearing empty.  What gives?  

You know how the print head pauses a bit after every 10 or 12 passes?
 During that pause the head is way over to the left side and I think
it does a little head cleaning squirt of the other nozzles, so the
color inks gradually get used.



>Anybody got a fave BO paper?  

I prefer PhotoRag for final prints (work prints on EEM).  I love the
look and have no flaking problems when I give the paper a rub with a
soft cloth.  Prints worked up with EEM can look a tad light on PR, so
I use a simple curve layer to pull them down.  I place a single
adjustment point in the center (I/O 128-128), and pull it to the
lower-right a few inits to I/O 131-124 or 133-122, depending on the
image.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

At 01:11 AM 11/24/03 +0000, you wrote:
>Hello Alan,
>
> >I think someone should start a BO list  :-)
>
>LOL!  No need for it, really.  It just needs to be treated like any
>other method.
>
>
> >I've been using BO for a book project on a new 1280 and with
> >refilled carts.
>
>Sounds interesting, what kind of project?  What ink?
>
>
> >After about five full tanks of black - I
> >haven't had to run a cleaning cycle yet - the color cart level
> >indicator shows it is nearing empty.  What gives?
>
>You know how the print head pauses a bit after every 10 or 12 passes?
>  During that pause the head is way over to the left side and I think
>it does a little head cleaning squirt of the other nozzles, so the
>color inks gradually get used.
>
>
>
> >Anybody got a fave BO paper?
>
>I prefer PhotoRag for final prints (work prints on EEM).  I love the
>look and have no flaking problems when I give the paper a rub with a
>soft cloth.  Prints worked up with EEM can look a tad light on PR, so
>I use a simple curve layer to pull them down.  I place a single
>adjustment point in the center (I/O 128-128), and pull it to the
>lower-right a few inits to I/O 131-124 or 133-122, depending on the
>image.
>
>
>Regards,
>Clayton
>
>
>Info on black and white digital printing at
>http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton.

I'm using plain old MIS ESC 1270-2-K  .  When that's gone I'll try some 
Ebony. Maybe a cheap skate like me should fill the color cart with Windex 
rather than waste good ink.

The book is the one on my tag line. I have six pages of 11 x 17 folded, BO 
pics and about 30 pages of  8-1/2 x 11 printed  and comb bound.

Thanks for the paper info.  Someday when I have some time I want to try 
mixing own dye/pig combo and also try double hit black.  Next I'll look 
into varnishes.

AZ


Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
NOW SHIPPING
http://www.panoramacamera.us