Digital BW, The Print

Some interesting 'unbiased' info ...
http://www.weink.com/ecom/support/technotes/tsn16.htm

additionally from the same site :

Use the appropriate type of ink. Epson printers use a micro-Piezo 
droplet formation printhead and need ink of specific surface tension 
and viscosity to allow proper droplet formation. using the wrong type 
of ink can produce poor quality prints due to poor replenishment 
rates, commonly seen as banding or drop-outs in your prints or poor 
color match.


Best,
Alex

Hi Alan,
I do think the comments about ink viscosity are valid. Epson creates 
different drivers for pigs and dyes ?

I have spent a most frustrating weekend trying to get a group of 8x10s 
printed. When I consider the hours days and years spent tweaking 
curves to reduce metamerism, posterization and finding inksets that 
don't band too much and papers that work, I am wondering if it would 
not just be easier to give up and 'smell the hypo' ...

Cheers,
Alex


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Alan Zinn 
<AZinn@n...> wrote:
> At 06:43 PM 11/2/03 +0000, you wrote:
> >Some interesting 'unbiased' info ...
> >http://www.weink.com/ecom/support/technotes/tsn16.htm
> >
> >additionally from the same site :
> >
> >Use the appropriate type of ink. Epson printers use a micro-Piezo
> >droplet formation printhead and need ink of specific surface 
tension
> >and viscosity to allow proper droplet formation. using the wrong 
type
> >of ink can produce poor quality prints due to poor replenishment
> >rates, commonly seen as banding or drop-outs in your prints or poor
> >color match.
> >
> >
> >Best,
> >Alex
> 
> Alex,
> Wow!  There must be some contrary, real-world  opinions about 
> this.  Pigment inks don't work - don't use them - they just ruin 
printers???

> 
> AZ
> 
> Build a Lookaround!
> The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
> NOW SHIPPING
> http://www.panoramacamera.us

At 06:43 PM 11/2/03 +0000, you wrote:
>Some interesting 'unbiased' info ...
>http://www.weink.com/ecom/support/technotes/tsn16.htm
>
>additionally from the same site :
>
>Use the appropriate type of ink. Epson printers use a micro-Piezo
>droplet formation printhead and need ink of specific surface tension
>and viscosity to allow proper droplet formation. using the wrong type
>of ink can produce poor quality prints due to poor replenishment
>rates, commonly seen as banding or drop-outs in your prints or poor
>color match.
>
>
>Best,
>Alex

Alex,
Wow!  There must be some contrary, real-world  opinions about 
this.  Pigment inks don't work - don't use them - they just ruin printers???

AZ

Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
NOW SHIPPING
http://www.panoramacamera.us

A competitor's take on this is that WeInk had a disaster with a Canon CIS.
Perhaps this article is a way for deflecting criticism.  The real issue,
however, is that the viscosity requirements of Epsons and Canons is very
different.  The reason we use Epsons is that they can tolerate the higher
viscosity of relatively high-load pigmented inks.  Reducing the load and
viscosity to bring the ink within the Epson tolerances is why MIS has a
separate "GP" ink for the 1280 v. the 2200.  It's the viscosity.

At any rate, a whole lot of people are sure happy with their Epson dye
printers pumping out pigments.  I'm sure it's a stretch for some of them,
and that may, indeed, be one of the reasons some of the printers just don't
seem to be able to handle the inks.  But appropriate pigments seem to work
fine with the Epson printers I've had any experience with.

It sure would be nice if we had top Epson and other inkjet chemists and
designers on this list.  It's really tough to know what information is
correct and what is guessing or competitive sales talk from the re-sellers.
No doubt half of what we hear today will turn out to be wrong next year.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

_____________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Zinn [mailto:AZinn@...]
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 5:01 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ink Information


At 06:43 PM 11/2/03 +0000, you wrote:
>Some interesting 'unbiased' info ...
>http://www.weink.com/ecom/support/technotes/tsn16.htm
>
>additionally from the same site :
>
>Use the appropriate type of ink. Epson printers use a micro-Piezo
>droplet formation printhead and need ink of specific surface tension
>and viscosity to allow proper droplet formation. using the wrong type
>of ink can produce poor quality prints due to poor replenishment
>rates, commonly seen as banding or drop-outs in your prints or poor
>color match.
>
>
>Best,
>Alex

Alex,
Wow!  There must be some contrary, real-world  opinions about
this.  Pigment inks don't work - don't use them - they just ruin printers???

AZ

Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
NOW SHIPPING
http://www.panoramacamera.us





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Hi Paul,
Thanks for the followup. The article seemed to cover a lot of 
information, perphaps it Was biased....

Maybe I should try the 2200 inks in my E2000P ?

I installed the Eboni/ UT inks for Epson drivers in the 2000P and had 
major posterization. I can't reposition the inks as I have with the 
MIS FSE as the UT inks use blue in the magenta positions. Blue ink, 
but interestingly, a bit more pleasantly brown toned than the FSE. 

FWIW, The normal order for the Epson Color cart is
C CL M ML Y.    With the FSE, I install them C M CL Y ML , use a 
PicWin tint that uses C only from 95% to 80& w/ no color adj and can 
get a well resolved, properly progressing, 100 step chart. In fact, 
the no color adj alone will work with that positioning, but the Epson 
driver turns on the K ink beginning at 80% and these dark dots can be 
seen. ( EAM paper used and selected ) Disadvantage: the C ink is 
consumed in significant quantity requiring frequent cart replacement.

At any rate, this set of 4 oz bottles is of no use to me. At least 3.6 
oz in each bottle, cost $100, sell $55 shipped if anyone wishes to 
experiment.

Best,
Alex


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
.  Reducing the load and
> viscosity to bring the ink within the Epson tolerances is why MIS  
has a  separate "GP" ink for the 1280 v. the 2200.  It's the 
viscosity.

> 

> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> _____________________________________________
>

Alex, I'll take the ink. And you won't even have to ship. I'm
currently in a Wednesday 8PM Crealde class so we can just meet before
class sometime. 
Bob Michaels

 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "B. Alex Pettit
Jr." <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> At any rate, this set of 4 oz bottles is of no use to me. At least
3.6 > oz in each bottle, cost $100, sell $55 shipped if anyone wishes
to > experiment.

At 11:22 PM 11/2/03 +0000, you wrote:
>Hi Alan,
>I do think the comments about ink viscosity are valid. Epson creates
>different drivers for pigs and dyes ?
>
>I have spent a most frustrating weekend trying to get a group of 8x10s
>printed. When I consider the hours days and years spent tweaking
>curves to reduce metamerism, posterization and finding inksets that
>don't band too much and papers that work, I am wondering if it would
>not just be easier to give up and 'smell the hypo' ...
>
>Cheers,
>Alex
>
>

Alex,

My thoughts exactly!  I don't want to count the bottles of ink I've 
tried.  Sure, I've gotten some acceptable work, even work I could not have 
printed in the darkroom. I've had several exhibits of mixed silver and ink 
jet prints where nobody noticed or asked about the difference. But OEM inks 
would have been far cheaper and certainly less time consuming.   In time 
fugitive color and metamerism will certainly become less of a problem if 
not completely solved.

I mentioned in a post a couple weeks ago that I would be showing real 
silver prints and the same prints done with piezo to some master printers. 
The consensus was that they were just different and given their biases 
would choose the silver prints.  We do an annual group portfolio and I 
sense a little unease with the inclusion of non-silver work. So, half a 
league onward the lights out brigade!


AZ

Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
NOW SHIPPING
http://www.panoramacamera.us

At 08:07 PM 11/2/03 -0800, you wrote:
>A competitor's take on this is that WeInk had a disaster with a Canon CIS.
>Perhaps this article is a way for deflecting criticism.  The real issue,
>however, is that the viscosity requirements of Epsons and Canons is very
>different.  The reason we use Epsons is that they can tolerate the higher
>viscosity of relatively high-load pigmented inks.  Reducing the load and
>viscosity to bring the ink within the Epson tolerances is why MIS has a
>separate "GP" ink for the 1280 v. the 2200.  It's the viscosity.
>
>At any rate, a whole lot of people are sure happy with their Epson dye
>printers pumping out pigments.  I'm sure it's a stretch for some of them,
>and that may, indeed, be one of the reasons some of the printers just don't
>seem to be able to handle the inks.  But appropriate pigments seem to work
>fine with the Epson printers I've had any experience with.
>
>It sure would be nice if we had top Epson and other inkjet chemists and
>designers on this list.  It's really tough to know what information is
>correct and what is guessing or competitive sales talk from the re-sellers.
>No doubt half of what we hear today will turn out to be wrong next year.
>
>Paul
>http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

What's the old saw about aeronautical engineers "proving" that bumble bees 
can't fly?

AZ

Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
NOW SHIPPING
http://www.panoramacamera.us