Digital BW, The Print

Daniel,
I have been using the septone inks and plug-in but have not been completely 
satisfied with the D-max and depth of the tonal range. Rather flat compared to 
my 1160 with mis quad inks and generations black.
I tried print without using the septone plugin and using the epson driver 
with a curve and suddenly my 2200 came alive .  I am thinking of trying the 
ultratones in my 2200 cis that now has the septones in it. I will have to do a swab 
test and figure out where the current ink positions are located.
My question to you is about the Arvchival 7600 light black ink. Is it epson 
or MIS. Have you had any clogging with the Eboni black?
I have been using the Entrada and photorag paper. Where is this Premier Paper 
coming from. I don't remember reading about it.
 Thanks   Tom Welch


> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I have been using the septone inks and plug-in but have not 
> been completely satisfied with the D-max and depth of the tonal 
> range. Rather flat compared to my 1160 with mis quad inks and 
> generations black.

That's interesting. I haven't heard much about the quality of the
Septones since their release. Most of what I've seen so far has been
complaints of some sort.

> My question to you is about the Arvchival 7600 light 
> black ink. Is it epson or MIS?

All of the inks I listed are MIS inks. 

You can find the light black cartridge here:
http://inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/epsoncomps_2200.html

> Have you had any clogging with the Eboni black?

A little. I wet my parking pad with windex and alcohol overnight and the
next day everything looked fine again. In QTR I still see some slight
microbanding though. Not sure why the Epson driver masks the banding
while QTR doesn't.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Hi Tom,

> I have been using the septone inks and plug-in but have not been completely
> satisfied with the D-max and depth of the tonal range. Rather flat compared to
> my 1160 with mis quad inks and generations black.
> I tried print without using the septone plugin and using the epson driver
> with a curve and suddenly my 2200 came alive .  I am thinking of trying the
> ultratones in my 2200 cis that now has the septones in it. I will have to do a
> swab 
> test and figure out where the current ink positions are located.

Are you on a Mac or a PC? I've been thinking about trying the Septones using
Ink Jet Control (IJC).

Would you say you are happier with the D-max and tonal range of the Septones
using the Epson driver? What do you mean by it 'came alive'?

I'm about ready to try either the Septones or the Ultratones, but want a bit
more information before I commit.

Anyone else out their using either ink with IJC?

Jon

> I'm about ready to try either the Septones or the Ultratones, 
> but want a bit more information before I commit.
> 
> Anyone else out their using either ink with IJC?

Wouldn't the Ultratones make more sense for IJC? If I'm not mistaken it
will go much warmer than the Septones bacuse of the added sepia toner,
and you can use both photo black and matte black without switching
carts. I think I would use a setup like this if I didn't need Epson
driver compatability.

As far as I know there's no advantage to the Septone inks  over the
Ultraones if you're not planning to use the supplied profiles and
software anyway.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Jon,
When I said the print on the 2200 came alive I mean that the contrast 
increase because the septone tones were printing with all  6 inks at the same time 
laying down more ink on the paper. That is why I had to use a strong upward 
curve to lighten the print because the Epson driver was using all inks at the same 
time whereas the septone driver rip only uses several inks because of the 
warm or cool sliders  that the software offers.  So using all the six inks at 
once produced a neutral print. I guess that the yellow and cyan or blue ink 
cancelled each other out.
My thought was to look into the ultratones to place in my cis rather than the 
septones as they are less expensive I think and I will probably be using the 
epson driver. I am on a PC , I guess I could get a mac and try the IJC. 
Tom


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Daniel,

>> I'm about ready to try either the Septones or the Ultratones,
>> but want a bit more information before I commit.
>> 
>> Anyone else out their using either ink with IJC?
> 
> Wouldn't the Ultratones make more sense for IJC? If I'm not mistaken it
> will go much warmer than the Septones bacuse of the added sepia toner,

I don't know. I generally print cool and don't do much sepia. What are the
other benefits (beside price)?

> and you can use both photo black and matte black without switching
> carts. I think I would use a setup like this if I didn't need Epson
> driver compatability.

True, but if I recall, the photo black is still being worked out for glossy
papers.

What are you using?

> 
> As far as I know there's no advantage to the Septone inks  over the
> Ultraones if you're not planning to use the supplied profiles and
> software anyway.

Gotcha. It seems the Septone system is plug-n-play--which may make it
worthwhile. However, I have a densitometer and wouldn't mind trying to
create profiles with IJC with either ink--so again it comes down to picking
an ink... :)

Suggestions?

Oh yeah, I seem to remember someone selling an empty CIS for the 2200, but I
couldn't find the link. Does that sound familiar?

Jon

> Gotcha. It seems the Septone system is plug-n-play--which may 
> make it worthwhile. However, I have a densitometer and 
> wouldn't mind trying to create profiles with IJC with either 
> ink--so again it comes down to picking an ink... :)

Since you're going to use a densitometer and IJC I would definitely go
for the Ultratones. It's the most reasonably priced inkset available for
the 2200, it's well supported on this list and I can't really see that
it has any disadvantage compared to any other inkset. 

> True, but if I recall, the photo black is still being worked 
> out for glossy papers.

Bronzing remains a problem with any of the inksets and papers available.
I much prefer the look of coated matte prints for really deep blacks,
although that introduces its own set of problems (dust, uneven coating).
A Mayer Rod is on my shopping list for the near future.

> What are you using?

I'm using the Ultratones with custom curves and the Epson driver.

> Oh yeah, I seem to remember someone selling an empty CIS for 
> the 2200, but I couldn't find the link. Does that sound familiar?

I've seen several CIS options for the 2200, but all of them were
pre-filled. Seems like there's still no virgin empties available for the
2200. You can clean and refill Epson carts though, it's not that hard. 

I wouldn't use a CIS myself. I want to be able to easily switch between
color and BW.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> Since you're going to use a densitometer and IJC I would definitely go
> for the Ultratones. It's the most reasonably priced inkset available for
> the 2200, it's well supported on this list and I can't really see that
> it has any disadvantage compared to any other inkset. 
> I'm using the Ultratones with custom curves and the Epson driver.
> 
> I've seen several CIS options for the 2200, but all of them were
> pre-filled. Seems like there's still no virgin empties available for the
> 2200. You can clean and refill Epson carts though, it's not that hard. 
> 
 --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

Daniel:

Would you have a link for the MIS Ultratones for a 2200?  I've been looking at the MIS 
site but seem to find every Epson printer EXCEPT the 2200!  I would be interested in 
the cartridges rather than the CIS.  Also, did you make your own curves to use with 
the Epson driver or did you purchase some?  thanks for any help.

Don in Broken Arrow

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the info. It looks like I'm going to try the Ultratones--probably
the carts first and then a cis.

What kind of cis are you using? Niagara?

You could get a cheap older mac to run IJC... but you might talk to Bowhaus
and see when they think the PC version will be out.

Jon

> Jon,
> When I said the print on the 2200 came alive I mean that the contrast
> increase because the septone tones were printing with all  6 inks at the same
> time 
> laying down more ink on the paper. That is why I had to use a strong upward
> curve to lighten the print because the Epson driver was using all inks at the
> same 
> time whereas the septone driver rip only uses several inks because of the
> warm or cool sliders  that the software offers.  So using all the six inks at
> once produced a neutral print. I guess that the yellow and cyan or blue ink
> cancelled each other out.
> My thought was to look into the ultratones to place in my cis rather than the
> septones as they are less expensive I think and I will probably be using the
> epson driver. I am on a PC , I guess I could get a mac and try the IJC.
> Tom

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for all the insight.
 
> I've seen several CIS options for the 2200, but all of them were
> pre-filled. Seems like there's still no virgin empties available for the
> 2200. You can clean and refill Epson carts though, it's not that hard.
> 

I found one here:

http://tinyurl.com/tbe0

> I wouldn't use a CIS myself. I want to be able to easily switch between
> color and BW.

Hmm, I wonder if you could swap between the CIS and the OEM carts?

I'll email Mediastreet and see what they say...

Jon

My set of curves for the 2100/2200 with MIS Ultratones is now placed in
the files section.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Ink%20S
ets/MIS/MIS%20Ultra%20Tone%20Inks/

Files > Ink Sets > MIS > MIS UltraTone Inks > Ultratone 2100 Curves.zip

They are NOT compatible with the 2200 Ultratone inkset that MIS are
currently selling on their web-pages. I don't believe that setup can
work with a curve-based workflow.

You'll need the following inks:

Black position:		Eboni Black
Light Black position:	Archival 7600 Light Black
Cyan position:		Ultratone Cyan
Light Cyan position:	Ultratone Light Cyan
Magenta position:		Ultratone Magenta
Light Magenta position:	Ultratone Light Magenta
Yellow position:		Ultratone Yellow

In other words I'm using the same ink positions as the other hextone
printers, but with an added light black in the that position.

I spent yesterday morning creating a new neutral warm curve, so my set
of curves should now be complete with warm, neutral warm, neutral and
cool curves. All of the curves are based on Paul Roark's 1290 curves,
but only the warm curve is a direct translation. The others are
composites, made from several different layers of curves and adjustments
layers which I've merged into a single new curve once I was happy with
them. This probably means that these three curves won't match the 1290
curves in tone, since I've pretty much adjusted the tones according to
my own preferences.

I'd be happy to recieve feedback and comments on the curves, and I'll do
my best to improve them if there is anything specific you'd like to see
changed.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

> Would you have a link for the MIS Ultratones for a 2200?  
> I've been looking at the MIS 
> site but seem to find every Epson printer EXCEPT the 2200!  I 
> would be interested in 
> the cartridges rather than the CIS.

http://inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/quadcart.html#2200

These won't work with my curves though. Check my other posting for more
details.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

I'm pretty sure I'm being a dunce here but...

I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say you have curves for the 2200 MIS 
Ultratone inks, but the curves don't work with the 2200 with the MIS Ultratone Inks 
sold on the website.

What inks are you using because I don't see anything for (as you listed them) 
"Ultratone cyan, Ultratone light cyan, Ultratone magenta, Ultratone light magenta, and 
ultratone yellow" on their website.

I can only guess that you mean the inks MIS has listed on their website in those 
positions, meaning "cyan position 75% black, light cyan position - cool toner, etc, etc, 
etc respectively."

In which case, the only difference between yours and the MIS Ultratone set is the 
"archival 7600 light black."  What ink is that?

Currently I'm using a 2200+IP for B&W.  I'm planning on buying the MIS Ultratones 
tomorrow to give them a shot, but I'm not sure what I should be buying.  My original 
thoughts were to use OPM/IJC... but I also want to give your curves a try.  Now I'm 
even more confused :-(

Confused,
Jeff
http://www.jeffsingerphotography.com



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" <daniel@p...> 
wrote:

> My set of curves for the 2100/2200 with MIS Ultratones is now placed in
> the files section.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Ink%20S
> ets/MIS/MIS%20Ultra%20Tone%20Inks/
> 
> Files > Ink Sets > MIS > MIS UltraTone Inks > Ultratone 2100 Curves.zip
> 
> They are NOT compatible with the 2200 Ultratone inkset that MIS are
> currently selling on their web-pages. I don't believe that setup can
> work with a curve-based workflow.
> 
> You'll need the following inks:
> 
> Black position:		Eboni Black
> Light Black position:	Archival 7600 Light Black
> Cyan position:		Ultratone Cyan
> Light Cyan position:	Ultratone Light Cyan
> Magenta position:		Ultratone Magenta
> Light Magenta position:	Ultratone Light Magenta
> Yellow position:		Ultratone Yellow
> 
> In other words I'm using the same ink positions as the other hextone
> printers, but with an added light black in the that position.
> 
> I spent yesterday morning creating a new neutral warm curve, so my set
> of curves should now be complete with warm, neutral warm, neutral and
> cool curves. All of the curves are based on Paul Roark's 1290 curves,
> but only the warm curve is a direct translation. The others are
> composites, made from several different layers of curves and adjustments
> layers which I've merged into a single new curve once I was happy with
> them. This probably means that these three curves won't match the 1290
> curves in tone, since I've pretty much adjusted the tones according to
> my own preferences.
> 
> I'd be happy to recieve feedback and comments on the curves, and I'll do
> my best to improve them if there is anything specific you'd like to see
> changed.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

Jeff,

Just to confuse you a bit more, there is a third option for using the 
MIS Ultratones with the 2200 via QuadToneRIP 2.0 beta 8.  Warm, cool, 
neutral, and sepia profiles are available in the QuadToneRIP 2.0 folder 
on my filesharing site (see link below).  The profiles are in a folder 
titled "2200 Ultratone Profiles" in the QTR_2.0_b8_Profiles.sit 
archive.  The QTR workflow and profiles use the Ultratones, as provided 
by MIS, in the 2200 carts and in their specified cartridge positions.

Carl

http://homepage.mac.com/scho/FileSharing2.html

On Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 03:50  PM, jsinger986 wrote:

> I'm pretty sure I'm being a dunce here but...
>
> I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say you have curves for the 
> 2200 MIS
> Ultratone inks, but the curves don't work with the 2200 with the MIS 
> Ultratone Inks
> sold on the website.
>
> What inks are you using because I don't see anything for (as you 
> listed them)
> "Ultratone cyan, Ultratone light cyan, Ultratone magenta, Ultratone 
> light magenta, and
> ultratone yellow" on their website.
>
> I can only guess that you mean the inks MIS has listed on their 
> website in those
> positions, meaning "cyan position 75% black, light cyan position - 
> cool toner, etc, etc,
> etc respectively."
>
> In which case, the only difference between yours and the MIS Ultratone 
> set is the
> "archival 7600 light black."  What ink is that?
>
> Currently I'm using a 2200+IP for B&W.  I'm planning on buying the MIS 
> Ultratones
> tomorrow to give them a shot, but I'm not sure what I should be 
> buying.  My original
> thoughts were to use OPM/IJC... but I also want to give your curves a 
> try.  Now I'm
> even more confused :-(
>
> Confused,
> Jeff
> http://www.jeffsingerphotography.com
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say you have curves 
> for the 2200 MIS Ultratone inks, but the curves don't work 
> with the 2200 with the MIS Ultratone Inks sold on the website.

They're all Ultratone inks, but the position of the inks in the inkset
MIS are selling is incompatible with what's required to use my curves.
For my curves you need Eboni black in the black postion, while they sell
it with Photo Black in the black position and Eboni in the light black
position. Also, they use a Sepia toner in the light magenta position,
while I use the lighter cool toner. 

My curves is designed for ink positions identical to what you would have
on a six-ink printer, with the exception of the added light black. I
started my work with the Ultratones for the 2100 a long time before MIS
were selling any cartridges for it, so I just went with the existing
setup that existed for the other printer models.

If you're using a mac you can use either QTR or IJC and probably won't
need my curves. I'm on windows which doesn't have any such RIP easily
available, and I also like the speed of printing with the Epson drivers.

The MIS Archival 7600 inkset is their Ultrachrome compatible color
inkset. I used the light gray ink from that inkset since that's the ink
that most closely matches the Epson light black in density.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Thanks,

The photoblack was one area of confusion for me since I only print with matte paper.  
So, my thought was that I would just buy two eboni blacks and no photoblack.  Or, 
does the Ultratone photoblack have a different purpose than the normal difference 
between Pk/Mk?

I also read someone say that the Epson 2200 Mk was actually better than the Eboni.  
Any thoughts on that?

Couldn't you  just use the Epson Light Black or is that a different ink all together?

Is clogging an issue?  I've only used my UC inks to date with no clogging.  I don't print 
that often (in spurts, but it can be a few weeks between printings) so I'm not sure 
what to expect.

Thanks again,
Jeff



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" <daniel@p...> 
wrote:

> > I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say you have curves 
> > for the 2200 MIS Ultratone inks, but the curves don't work 
> > with the 2200 with the MIS Ultratone Inks sold on the website.
> 
> They're all Ultratone inks, but the position of the inks in the inkset
> MIS are selling is incompatible with what's required to use my curves.
> For my curves you need Eboni black in the black postion, while they sell
> it with Photo Black in the black position and Eboni in the light black
> position. Also, they use a Sepia toner in the light magenta position,
> while I use the lighter cool toner. 
> 
> My curves is designed for ink positions identical to what you would have
> on a six-ink printer, with the exception of the added light black. I
> started my work with the Ultratones for the 2100 a long time before MIS
> were selling any cartridges for it, so I just went with the existing
> setup that existed for the other printer models.
> 
> If you're using a mac you can use either QTR or IJC and probably won't
> need my curves. I'm on windows which doesn't have any such RIP easily
> available, and I also like the speed of printing with the Epson drivers.
> 
> The MIS Archival 7600 inkset is their Ultrachrome compatible color
> inkset. I used the light gray ink from that inkset since that's the ink
> that most closely matches the Epson light black in density.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

I'll give QTR a try as well.

thanks!

Jeff

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <scho@m...> 
wrote:

> Jeff,
> 
> Just to confuse you a bit more, there is a third option for using the 
> MIS Ultratones with the 2200 via QuadToneRIP 2.0 beta 8.  Warm, cool, 
> neutral, and sepia profiles are available in the QuadToneRIP 2.0 folder 
> on my filesharing site (see link below).  The profiles are in a folder 
> titled "2200 Ultratone Profiles" in the QTR_2.0_b8_Profiles.sit 
> archive.  The QTR workflow and profiles use the Ultratones, as provided 
> by MIS, in the 2200 carts and in their specified cartridge positions.
> 
> Carl
> 
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/FileSharing2.html
> 
> On Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 03:50  PM, jsinger986 wrote:
> 
> > I'm pretty sure I'm being a dunce here but...
> >
> > I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say you have curves for the 
> > 2200 MIS
> > Ultratone inks, but the curves don't work with the 2200 with the MIS 
> > Ultratone Inks
> > sold on the website.
> >
> > What inks are you using because I don't see anything for (as you 
> > listed them)
> > "Ultratone cyan, Ultratone light cyan, Ultratone magenta, Ultratone 
> > light magenta, and
> > ultratone yellow" on their website.
> >
> > I can only guess that you mean the inks MIS has listed on their 
> > website in those
> > positions, meaning "cyan position 75% black, light cyan position - 
> > cool toner, etc, etc,
> > etc respectively."
> >
> > In which case, the only difference between yours and the MIS Ultratone 
> > set is the
> > "archival 7600 light black."  What ink is that?
> >
> > Currently I'm using a 2200+IP for B&W.  I'm planning on buying the MIS 
> > Ultratones
> > tomorrow to give them a shot, but I'm not sure what I should be 
> > buying.  My original
> > thoughts were to use OPM/IJC... but I also want to give your curves a 
> > try.  Now I'm
> > even more confused :-(
> >
> > Confused,
> > Jeff
> > http://www.jeffsingerphotography.com
> >
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Jeff,

> I'm pretty sure I'm being a dunce here but...

Hey, no more than anyone else... :)

-snip-

> Currently I'm using a 2200+IP for B&W.  I'm planning on buying the MIS
> Ultratones 
> tomorrow to give them a shot, but I'm not sure what I should be buying.  My
> original 
> thoughts were to use OPM/IJC... but I also want to give your curves a try.

I'm in the same boat. I'm getting the UT cartridges this week and am going
to try my hand at profile making with IJC.

I was going to do some cart mixing and matching as I don't print much on
glossy, but I think I'm just going to get the full set and try them out on
several papers.

Hmmm, I better order two sets of carts, as something tells me I'm going to
be using a fair amount of ink this week...

Jon