Digital BW, The Print

Dear Friends,

I am considering moving up from 35mm into medium format. Specifically,
I am thinking about getting a Mamiya's 645E camera and an Epson 3200
scanner to print bw on my existing epson 1280 using quadtones.  

Does anyone have experience with such a setup? Should I expect
significant print quality improvements? Right now I use the HP S20xi
scanner on my 35mm negatives.

Thanks,
Manuel

Dear Manuel
I have recently made a similar move. I bought a 4mg pixel digital camera when my two 35mm (OM2 & Minox) packed up. The digital is very poor except for shots of the family.
I went for another Minox to carry round. Then for a 50 year old Rollieflex TLR with metering. I have only put three films through up to now and made a complete mess of two of them, but I wanted something to slow me down and think, rather than click the shutter a thousand times and hope something would come out of it.
The dilemma is film. Transparency is supposed to be best but probably only if you have a high end film scanner or drum scanner. I think I will change to negative film. Then, and this is the only advice I can think of, have large prints made 8x8 from these square negs. These will scan very nicely on my flat bed (Epson 1640XL). 
With the novelty of black and white printing, this set-up feels like real photography again, and uses digital techniques for what they are best at.
I hope this helps.
John

-----Original Message-----

From: Manuel Toledo Quinones [mailto:mtoledo@ece.uprm.edu] 
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 10:08 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] medium format and epson 1280


Dear Friends,

I am considering moving up from 35mm into medium format. Specifically,
I am thinking about getting a Mamiya's 645E camera and an Epson 3200
scanner to print bw on my existing epson 1280 using quadtones.  

Does anyone have experience with such a setup? Should I expect
significant print quality improvements? Right now I use the HP S20xi
scanner on my 35mm negatives.

Thanks,
Manuel


Although your 6x4.5 negatives will be about 2.8 times larger than a 35mm
frame, I think that if you are looking for major improvements, consider
the following 2 points:

1. Go to a larger size such as 6x7 (Mamiya RB or RZ) or even consider
large format sheet film (i.e. 4x5 inches).
Remember those 6x7 cameras (RB, RZ) are heavy and big, and may not suit
your shooting habits, but you can find used ones for great prices.  
You would also need a scanner to handle those larger film sizes.

2.  Get a better scanner that is really dedicated to film.  I don't know
anything about the scanner you use now, or the Epson 3200, but my bets
are that film scanning is not all that good on any of those units.

All depends on what you want and your budget of course.

TigerShark

Manual,

The Epson 3200 + Mamiya 645E camera will give you a visible 
improvement over what you have right now.

The 645E is about the best bargain as far as new MF camera are 
concerned and the Epson 3200 cannot be beaten in its price range. 
This is a great combination for your stated intented use. 

I am preparing an exhibition and will be scanning 6x4.5 b&w negs with 
an Epson 3200 for printing to A3+ size with an Epson 1160 + MIS FS-N 
quads inks. I have scanned 6x4.5, 6x7 and 6x9 negs with the Epson 
3200 and I find that the sharper the negs the sharper the scans come 
out.

So go ahead, you're on the path to making great prints.
Cheers,
Andre





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Manuel Toledo 
Quinones" <mtoledo@e...> wrote:
> 
> Dear Friends,
> 
> I am considering moving up from 35mm into medium format. 
Specifically,

> I am thinking about getting a Mamiya's 645E camera and an Epson 3200
> scanner to print bw on my existing epson 1280 using quadtones.  
> 
> Does anyone have experience with such a setup? Should I expect
> significant print quality improvements? Right now I use the HP S20xi
> scanner on my 35mm negatives.
> 
> Thanks,
> Manuel

Manuel,

You wrote:

>I am considering moving up from 35mm into medium format. Specifically,
>I am thinking about getting a Mamiya's 645E camera and an Epson 3200
>scanner to print bw on my existing epson 1280 using quadtones.

>Does anyone have experience with such a setup? Should I expect
>significant print quality improvements? Right now I use the HP S20xi
>scanner on my 35mm negatives.

I shoot medium format ("MF"), and with Tech Pan or Tmax 100 (with much more
work), I can print 22 by 28 prints that are perfectly sharp and almost
entirely grainless.

However, using MF equipment in an of itself does not guarantee better
sharpness.  I'm very skeptical that any "affordable" flatbed scanner can
deliver sharpness that is equivalent to a film scanner with even close to
the equivalent dpi.  My Epson 1600 delivers sharpness that is about equal to
a good 800 dpi film scanner.  When I used the Epson 1600, I enlarged the
images onto 8 x 10 film first.  Even an 8x10 print interpositive is better
than a direct MF scan with the 1600.  The Nikon 8000 was a huge step up for
me, eliminating a major barrier to my accessing my negatives.

MF cameras are also no guarantee of superior image quality even on the
negative.  All such cameras with "reverse curl" backs put a bend in the film
that stop it from laying flat on the film plane.  Even the old twin lens
reflex (my Rollei F & GX, for example) have film flatness problems.  For
perfect sharpness, I used to shoot only every other frame with a TLR and my
Rollei SL66.  My Bronica 645 RF and Fuji 645 Zi are the only MF cameras I've
owned that can be shot like 35 mm cameras and have flat film.

Also, on light or even medium weight tripods, be careful about mirror slap
and focal plane shutter momentum.  Even if the mirror is pre-released, the
movement of that big focal plan shutter must be in line with the tripod mass
for that mass to be an effective damper.  If the shutter is moving
horizontally, you'll have a heck of a time taming it.  (This is true to a
lesser extent even for 35 mm.)

On the other hand, the MF cameras with leaf shutters are virtually vibration
free.  I use a very light tripod with leaf shutter cameras, which makes
those MF systems lighter than 35 mm systems.  (And as an aging backpacker,
weight is very important.)

So, MF will definitely help with grain, but for sharpness, careful work is
needed to get close to the full benefit out of that film size.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

.  I'm very skeptical that any "affordable" flatbed scanner can
> deliver sharpness that is equivalent to a film scanner with even 
close to
> the equivalent dpi.  My Epson 1600 delivers sharpness that is about 
equal to
> a good 800 dpi film scanner.  

Paul,
The Epson 3200 has been shown to deliver sharpness equivalent to a 
1800 dpi film scanner.

My experience with the Epson 3200 and 6x4.5 negs is that I can get 
sharp prints up to 12 x 16". However, the negs have to be sharp to 
begin with and I mean real sharp. Your milease will vary.

Here are three links regarding the sharpness of the Epson 3200
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/epson3200/index.html
http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/Epson_3200_Bruck.html
Also page 10 of the Epson 3200 scanner review at http://www.photo-
i.co.uk/
Cheers,
Andre

Hello, Manuel:  If you have a good 35mm camera now, and like the 35mm
qualities, my take is that you would be better off upgrading your 35mm
scanner, say to a Nikon Super Coolscan 4000ED.  Medium format doesn't really
gain over 35, especially 6x4.5, unless you have an even more expensive
scanner, e.g., the Nikon 8000.  Another route you might consider:  If your
images are somewhat static, i.e., you don't mind being tied to a tripod, a
good used 4x5 field camera and a couple of lenses (say a 120 and a 210mm)
would give you a negative that would probably produce a good image with a
high-quality flatbed scanner.  4x5 is convenient, that is you can develop
each sheet separately as in the zone system, but there is a learning curve
with camera movements and depth of field.  But the medium format is really
neither fish nor fowl unless you have an excellent film scanner such as the
Nikon 8000.  Or, of course, unless you have the negs professionally scanned
($$).  If you do go the MF route, be sure to look at the Fuji 6x9.  Hope
this helps.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com




----- Original Message -----
From: "Manuel Toledo Quinones" <mtoledo@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 9:08 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] medium format and epson 1280


>
> Dear Friends,
>
> I am considering moving up from 35mm into medium format. Specifically,
> I am thinking about getting a Mamiya's 645E camera and an Epson 3200
> scanner to print bw on my existing epson 1280 using quadtones.
>
> Does anyone have experience with such a setup? Should I expect
> significant print quality improvements? Right now I use the HP S20xi
> scanner on my 35mm negatives.
>
> Thanks,
> Manuel
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
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> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Speaking of having negs professionally scanned, I've thought about 
going this route -- 
http://www.imagers.com/proscans/index.html -- 

for MF scanning. They use a Imacon Flextight 848 scan at 2000 dpi. 
$15 seems like a good price, assuming the quality is good. Anyone on 
this list have experience with this company or something similiar? 
I've also seen outfits advertising Nikon ED 8000 scans at around the 
same price -- greater dpi, of course, but I'm not sure the quality 
would be greater, although the file size would be greater and the 
print size could, therefore, at least in theory be larger. At any 
rate I wouldn't want to print much larger than 11x11 inches.

Chris Hargens

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Carney" 
<kcarney1@c...> wrote:
> Hello, Manuel:  If you have a good 35mm camera now, and like the 
35mm
> qualities, my take is that you would be better off upgrading your 
35mm
> scanner, say to a Nikon Super Coolscan 4000ED.  Medium format 
doesn't really
> gain over 35, especially 6x4.5, unless you have an even more 
expensive
> scanner, e.g., the Nikon 8000.  Another route you might consider:  
If your
> images are somewhat static, i.e., you don't mind being tied to a 
tripod, a
> good used 4x5 field camera and a couple of lenses (say a 120 and a 
210mm)
> would give you a negative that would probably produce a good image 
with a
> high-quality flatbed scanner.  4x5 is convenient, that is you can 
develop
> each sheet separately as in the zone system, but there is a 
learning curve
> with camera movements and depth of field.  But the medium format is 
really
> neither fish nor fowl unless you have an excellent film scanner 
such as the
> Nikon 8000.  Or, of course, unless you have the negs professionally 
scanned
> ($$).  If you do go the MF route, be sure to look at the Fuji 6x9.  
Hope
> this helps.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>   --Ken Carney
>     www.kencarney.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Manuel Toledo Quinones" <mtoledo@e...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 9:08 AM
> Subject: [Digital BW] medium format and epson 1280
> 
> 
> >
> > Dear Friends,
> >
> > I am considering moving up from 35mm into medium format. 
Specifically,
> > I am thinking about getting a Mamiya's 645E camera and an Epson 
3200
> > scanner to print bw on my existing epson 1280 using quadtones.
> >
> > Does anyone have experience with such a setup? Should I expect
> > significant print quality improvements? Right now I use the HP 
S20xi
> > scanner on my 35mm negatives.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Manuel
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

If you are going to medium format as a quality issue, then flatbed scanning
your negatives isn't the way to bring them in.  There are plenty of used
Minolta and Nikon film scanners around that will give you much better
quality with less headache.

Seth

=
=Dear Friends,
=
=I am considering moving up from 35mm into medium format. 
=Specifically, I am thinking about getting a Mamiya's 645E 
=camera and an Epson 3200 scanner to print bw on my existing 
=epson 1280 using quadtones.  
=
=Does anyone have experience with such a setup? Should I expect 
=significant print quality improvements? Right now I use the HP 
=S20xi scanner on my 35mm negatives.
=
=Thanks,
=Manuel
=
=

Hello Ken,

>If you have a good 35mm camera now, and like the 35mm
>qualities, my take is that you would be better off upgrading 
>your 35mm scanner, say to a Nikon Super Coolscan 4000ED.  
>Medium format doesn't really gain over 35, especially 6x4.5, 
>unless you have an even more expensive scanner, 

My own experience has been different than this.  I have made prints
from 35mm negs scanned on Steve K's Nikon 8000 (4000 dpi) and
645/66/67 negs scanned on my 1600 dpi flatbed, and the 35mm images
still fall apart sooner (as the print size increases) than the 645
flatbed images.  Of course the better scanner makes a huge difference
(35mm scans on the flatbed are unaceptable), but there's no substitute
for real estate.  There's a clarity and presence from larger negs that
is obvious when same size prints from these scans are compared.  In my
experience the difference begins to show by the time the print gets up
to 8x10.

I'm getting excellent results from the 1600-flatbed/645 scans, and
with the newer 3200 model I'm sure it would be even better.  IMO,
moving from 35mm to 645 or greater will not be regretted if quality of
larger prints is a goal.

I have a lot of good negs from years of work, 35mm through 4x5, that I
want to work up into digi prints.  After a year of experimenting with
Steve K's scanner and my own, I've concluded that the best $ value for
me will be to get a 35mm film scanner (I'm seriously considering the
upcoming Minolta 5400) and use the flatbed (maybe upgrade to the 3200)
for the larger negs.  The Minolta 5400 @ $900 and Epson 3200 @ $375 is
still under half the price of a Nikon 8000 @ $2700.  Add in a 2200 @
$700 and the Epson RIP @ $200 and it comes to $2175, still $500 less
than the 8000.  $500 will buy a lot of ink and paper <g>.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

At 02:08 PM 6/7/03 +0000, you wrote:

>Dear Friends,
>
>I am considering moving up from 35mm into medium format. Specifically,
>I am thinking about getting a Mamiya's 645E camera and an Epson 3200
>scanner to print bw on my existing epson 1280 using quadtones.
>
>Does anyone have experience with such a setup? Should I expect
>significant print quality improvements? Right now I use the HP S20xi
>scanner on my 35mm negatives.
>
>Thanks,
>Manuel




>Manuel,

>I think you will be very pleased with your proposed system.  I am much 
>more productive than I was in the darkroom now that I use film/digital 
>(b/w, Portra film, E3200, piezo).  The way I see it you will have to spend 
>much more for a larger format and dedicated film scanner to get little or 
>no improvement and your costs will cut into your productivity. I have 
>friends with similar systems with great success.

Go here for a review of 3200:  http://www.photo-i.co.uk/index.html


>AZ


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