Digital BW, The Print

Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Stan writes:
>> ... another (a 1270) dedicated to black and white
>> (loaded with hextone gray inks) for just that
>> reason.
>
> Do you need special driver software when you use special inks?

You can get excellent results with the standard Epson driver (by using
Photoshop curves to 'partition' the image to the different grey
channels). This procedure is not immediately intuitive, but it works.
See this MIS page:  http://tinyurl.com/ca68

Special drivers can produce excellent results in a more straightforward
way. For example see http://www.piezography.com/

> Do B&W inks cause any problem with clogging?

Generally, no more than usual...

> Are they based on carbon
> pigments, or what?

Carbon pigment inks are more common, but dye based inks are also
available. The pigment inks tend to work best on matte finish papers.
If you want glossy prints the dye based inks are better.

>> I don't know whether you would call them "deep,
>> rich" or not, but they have been good enough to
>> satisfy judges of several competitions ...
>
> Have you compared them to traditional darkroom prints (by expert
> printers)? If so, how did they stand up?

Inkjet printing is not the same as silver-gelatin -- the prints, though
similar, are not the same. Many people who know their way around the
darkroom say 'I can make better prints with Photoshop and quad-grey ink
than I ever could in the darkroom', or words to that effect. Here is a
quote from Paul Roark, who has done a lot of work to develop inksets
and workflows:

"Although I have been a traditional darkroom printer for years,
technology has now reached the point where, in my view, the latest
digital printing processes have surpassed the silver print in most
respects. As such, while I still will print special-order,
selenium-toned silver prints, I recommend and use the new archival
carbon pigment process for most of my display prints."

See Paul's website: http://www.paulroark.com

Keep hanging around this list and you'll find out more!

Peter Marquis-Kyle

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Marquis-
Kyle" <petermk@o...> wrote:
> Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> > Stan writes:
> >> ... another (a 1270) dedicated to black and white
> >> (loaded with hextone gray inks) for just that
> >> reason.
> >
> > Do you need special driver software when you use special inks?
> 
> You can get excellent results with the standard Epson driver (by 
using
> Photoshop curves to 'partition' the image to the different grey
> channels). This procedure is not immediately intuitive, but it 
works.

It may work for the 1270/1280 mentioned in the original question, 
but they use dye based inks so they're not very archival.   Using 
the stock Epson inks and the stock Epson driver for pigment-ink 
printers like the 2200 will result in metamerism.    You need to buy 
a RIP with its own driver to get around that using the U/C inks.

Intuitively, I'd expect carbon-based inks to clog, since they must contain
solid carbon somewhere.  Dyes, on the other hand, might not present that
problem (?).  Fountain pens loaded with India ink clog eventually too.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Nelson" <peter@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 16:08
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ink-jet better than wet prints (was Digital stuff)


>
> >Do B&W inks cause any problem with clogging?
>
> It would certainly seem that way.   Hardly a day goes by on this
> forum where someone doesn't post about a clog.
>
> I've had an Epson 870, with the stock inks, since 2000 and I had one
> clog on it, which was a result of leaving it with the heads unparked
> for a MONTH.  It took 5 cleaning cycles to clear and I have never
> had a clog since then.
>
> I've had an Epson 2200 with the stock inks since January and I've
> never had a clog.
>
> The impression I get from people here is that clogs and frequent
> head cleanings, windexing, head removal for cleaning, etc, are par
> for the course with 3rd-party inks.   I've never received a straight
> answer here when I've asked why the 3rd-party ink makers can't get
> their stuff as clog-free as the Epson inks.
>
>
>
>
>
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----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Peter Nelson" <peter@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:08 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ink-jet better than wet prints (was Digital stuff)


>
> >Do B&W inks cause any problem with clogging?
>
> It would certainly seem that way.   Hardly a day goes by on this
> forum where someone doesn't post about a clog.
>
> I've had an Epson 870, with the stock inks, since 2000 and I had one
> clog on it, which was a result of leaving it with the heads unparked
> for a MONTH.  It took 5 cleaning cycles to clear and I have never
> had a clog since then.
>
> I've had an Epson 2200 with the stock inks since January and I've
> never had a clog.
>
> The impression I get from people here is that clogs and frequent
> head cleanings, windexing, head removal for cleaning, etc, are par
> for the course with 3rd-party inks.   I've never received a straight
> answer here when I've asked why the 3rd-party ink makers can't get
> their stuff as clog-free as the Epson inks.
>
Peter,

You have the wrong impression. No thing is perfect but the major clogging
issues were resolved with the latest generation of carbon pigment inks. At
the moment I have three 1280's. One with MIS inks, one with Piezotone inks
and one with Epson dye inks. The worst clogging one of the lot is the one
with the Epson inks. For some reason the black ink nozzle in this printer
clogs up about once every of weeks. I have had to switch in new cartridges
to get it going again. My wife's 1270 also has some clogging problems with
Epson inks from time to time.

In general people don't post, "This worked perfectly and I love it." They
tend to come to the list with their questions and their problems. People
starting out today should have a good experience with the B&W dedicated
systems. In the past, say 2+ years ago, this was not the case and the rate
of problems was extremely high. I certainly make no claim that any of the
systems are 100% perfect but the odds of failure are low.

Bottom line inkjet technology is prone to clogging. Epson didn't include
nozzle checks and cleaning utilities because they expected clog free
operation.

Martin

At 07:58 AM 5/21/2003, you wrote:
>It may work for the 1270/1280 mentioned in the original question,
>but they use dye based inks so they're not very archival.   Using
>the stock Epson inks and the stock Epson driver for pigment-ink
>printers like the 2200 will result in metamerism.    You need to buy
>a RIP with its own driver to get around that using the U/C inks.

The ink that comes with the 1270/1280 is dye-based, but I use third-party 
pigment inks from Mediastreet (color/1280) and MIS (b&w/1270). I use the 
1270 as a dedicated b&w printer precisely because of the metamerism issue 
with the colored inks in the 1280. I do not use a third-party driver for 
either printer. For color, I use printer profiles generated by Cone and by 
Mediastreet, depending on which paper I'm using. For b&w, I use the 
Photoshop curves from Paul Roark.

Stan

================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com

>Intuitively, I'd expect carbon-based inks to clog, since they must contain
>solid carbon somewhere.  Dyes, on the other hand, might not present that
>problem (?).  Fountain pens loaded with India ink clog eventually too.

I was once told the orifice of an inkjet printer is about 25 microns.  The
particle size of the pigments is about 0.1 to 0.25 microns (I think).  I
beleive the print heads and cartridges have screens in them that catch
anything larger than 1 micron.  So, the particles in and of themselves are
probably not going to clog the printer.  It's when the carrier dries out
that the problems come.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com