Digital BW, The Print

I started writing to Paul Roark, but realized that many
on this list might be able to help me, and many might
value the responses.


Paul,

I'm a regular reader of DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint, 
and wonder if you have an easy answer for me.

I have 3 unused printers, 1160, 3000, and 7000.

Also a 9600 w/Ultrachromes + Matte Black, and love it 
for color work. It's semi-OK for B&W, but I want 
something better.

The 1160 has original Piezo inks that I've never been 
very pleased with, mostly because of the ink color.

The 7000 has Generations' outdoor inks that I used 
prior to my 9600. It now mostly sits idle.

The 3000 sits idle.

I want a dedicated B&W system, but I'm confused about 
where to start - which inks: MIS, Piezo, Lyson... and 
which printer: 7000, 3000, or 1160....?

My first thought is Selenium Piezotones, since I 
already have Piezo, but I feel a little gun shy about 
Piezo.

I fear the only thing that will satisfy me, is to try 
EVERYthing, but I'd sure like some guidance by someone 
with more experience.

I wish there was a single site to read all the pros and 
cons of each system, and see them all.

Priorities, in rough order:
    satisfying tonalities & detail
    long print life
    90% matte, but occasional gloss?
    some ability to vary the hue

I feel lame to be asking such a broad question, but I 
would sure appreciate some help outta this place I'm 
stuck in.

Many thanks, Clark Thomas

www.simplephotographs.com

Clark,

You wrote, in part:

Paul [and other list members],

>I have 3 unused printers, 1160, 3000, and 7000.

>Also a 9600 w/UltraChromes + Matte Black, and love it
>for color work. It's semi-OK for B&W, but I want
>something better.

I have only seen samples of 7600 & 2200 prints, but, while the tones they
can achieve are fine, especially with a good RIP, the highlights show some
dots.  Overall, I think the best "quads" (B&W inksets) can do better and
will probably stay stable longer.

Of course, being closely associated with the variable-tone approach, I no
doubt have a bias in that direction, but I'll be happy to give you my
opinions, for what they are worth.

>The 1160 has original Piezo inks that I've never been
>very pleased with, mostly because of the ink color.

Changing that color is how the variable-tone approach started.  The two
early pigmented quad inksets from Cone and MIS were warm. So, I decided to
try cooling them down with cyan and magenta (blue) color pigments. I started
with the PiezoBW inkset, and then moved over to the MIS Archival inkset for
base inks.

I felt it would be easier and more flexible to cool-down the warm inksets
with a toner ink and software (free & readily-modifiable Photoshop image
adjustment curves) rather than try to mix a single ink color and put that
one ink tone in all the color spots.  I think it is easier to modify
"software" than "hardware."  For those who want total control of the tone,
being able to change the tones as needed for each paper or printer is a plus
factor.

The variable-toner approach also allows one to use the most stable, pure
carbon pigments as a base and when maximum longevity is needed.  The less
toner that is used, the less color pigment you'll have in the mix.  The
color pigments are the relative weaklings that one might want to minimize
when doing work that has to last the longest.  Having an essentially pure
carbon inkset available on demand is a definite plus factor for my old photo
reproduction/archival printing.

I just copied and cleaned-up a badly-torn WW II photo of three, then-happy
young guys going off to war (in fact, the Battle of the Bulge where they
really had a traumatic time).  It was a silver print that, at least at this
point in time, almost exactly matched the pure carbon print I made for the
relatives of one of the previously-unknown (to us) young soldiers whose
family my wife was able to track down through internet genealogy forums.  I
think the carbon pigment on Epson UltraSmooth cotton paper, sprayed with an
archival fixative for better physical protection, will last for many years
in that family's scrapbook or in any reasonable display situation.

>I want a dedicated B&W system, but I'm confused about
>where to start - which inks:

>MIS,

Inexpensive but good inks -- the latest Ultra Tone B&W (UT) inkset is state
of the art.

> Piezo,

The PiezoTones are state of the art.  If MIS didn't have the UT inks I might
be using the PiezoTone Selenium with Museum black.

>Lyson...

I avoid dyes.  Also the small gamut inkset on a quad has dots.

>which printer: 7000, 3000, or 1160....?

I have the 7500, 3000 and 1160.  I still use the 1160 for daily, routine
printing.  It's excellent for ink mixing experiments also.  However, quads
will show slight dots on variable-tone inksets (although I never notice them
in actual photos), and the RC papers that we are starting to get into really
show all the defects more clearly than the matte papers.

My 3000 simply sits idle now that I have the 7500 with Ultra Tones in it.  I
may use the 3000 as a dedicated vm-s (variable-tone sepia) machine.  The
current UT inks can print very warm, but it's not a true sepia.  The 3000
has done excellent vm-s prints for me for more than a year.  I have now
mixed a sepia toner for the Ultra Tone (warm) grays that makes very nice and
very lightfast prints, but only from the range of warm to sepia.  I'm
keeping the UT pure-carbon midtones as is for this inkset to maximize
longevity.  (This sepia UT toner is actually aimed at the Bowhaus RIP, but
it works very well with the Epson driver also.)

The 7500 is great for display prints, but it's a hassle for small prints.
With a roll of EEM on it and MIS Ultra Tone inks in it, printing virtually
perfect display prints is almost too easy and cheap.

>My first thought is Selenium Piezotones, since I
>already have Piezo, but I feel a little gun shy about
>Piezo.

If I had to have a single tone, the selenium-neutral tone would be it.  The
PiezoTone Selenium and Ultra Tone neutral tone ("nc" curve) give an
excellent selenium tone.

>I fear the only thing that will satisfy me, is to try
>EVERYthing, but I'd sure like some guidance by someone
>with more experience.

True.

>Priorities, in rough order:
    >satisfying tonalities & detail

Detail will be excellent in all these machines and with any of the inksets.

As noted above, for me the most important tone is "selenium" toned neutrals
to match my lightly-selenium-toned silver prints, and the PiezoTone Selenium
and the MIS UT inksets accomplish this very nicely.  (This tone is
characterized by spectrophotometer mid-tone readings that have the cyan and
yellow channels equal and the magenta channel up 0.01 unit.  This varies
slightly among different papers.)

Second, on my list would be a true but light sepia tone. (I find a
spectrophotometer reading that has the cyan channel about 0.20 units less
than the yellow channel is about right.)  I have been printing this tone
with the MIS VM-S inkset, and the new UT with sepia toner can do it.  I have
not used the PiezoTone Sepia, but my impression is that it may not be as
"sepia" as the MIS inkset can go.


    >long print life

Stick with 100% pigment inksets, and the less color pigment that is added,
the better.  The PiezoTone NW/Museum black and Ultra Tone/Eboni black
combinations appear to be about the same in my informal and relatively
short-term fade testing.  These two inkset are, in my tests, more stable
than the Epson Archival inkset -- which is still claimed to exceed "200
years" on some papers according to Epson testing (mostly displayed in
non-U.S. websites).

Stick with the cotton papers for the final print.  Epson UltraSmooth (no
optical brighteners) looked good in my sample batch.  EEM is better looking,
but yellowing in 30 years (or less?) is not acceptable for many uses.


    >90% matte, but occasional gloss?

The MIS Ultra Tone B&W can do this.  I'm not sure if any other pigment-based
B&W inkset is RC paper compatible. Some spray the other pigmented inksets to
help them stick to RC paper.

    >some ability to vary the hue

The MIS VM & Ultra Tone inksets are variable-tone.

Of course, many get great results with Piezo and the more flexible RIPs that
are out there.  I do not have any experience with the newer RIPs.  I would
like individual ink cart control and might well gravitate that direction
when the software is ready and up to Epson driver quality.

I hope this is helpful.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

>Clark,
>
>You wrote, in part:
>
>Paul [and other list members],
>
> >I have 3 unused printers, 1160, 3000, and 7000.

[big snip]

> >I want a dedicated B&W system, but I'm confused about
> >where to start - which inks:

[another big snip]

>I hope this is helpful.
>
>Paul
>http://www.PaulRoark.com

Well, it certainly is helpful to me to have Paul's survey of the 
scene, and I appreciate Paul providing it. There are enough options 
now that "roundups" like this one are very useful.

Sam

Sam McCandless     samcc@...

Paul,

Was afraid I'd be slammed, but instead
you wrote a very useful and thought
provoking response.

I've read it three times already, and I am
encouraged. Thank you!

For my 7000, I see MIS Ultra Tones and EEM as 
a good answer. Do you like ESFA as well?

For my 1160, which has the original Piezo 
ink, it makes sense that I should simply try 
the PiezoTone Selenium... Are you suggesting 
a modified software approach over the 
standard Piezo driver?? Wasn't sure as I read 
your note, now for the 4th time...?

Maybe I'll let the 3000 sit idle a little 
longer, then use it as a Sepia machine.

Thank you for giving me the nudge in a 
direction I can feel good about.

Regards,

Clark Thomas
www.simplephotographs.com

P.S. One friend wrote the following offline, 
and I too wish all this was easier to grasp,
and to execute. It will be in time, I guess...

>> ...i honestly think that that whole 
>> quadtone approach is a bunch of 
>> hassle, due to no way to softproof it. 
>> it's too rubegoldberg for me....the 
>> more i mess with this crap, the less 
>> messin' with it, the less riggin', the 
>> less BS, the better. honestly, i'm not 
>> happy with ANY output i've seen, from 
>> ANY of the printers. really. honestly. 
>> down deep.

On 5/1/03 8:32 AM, "simplephotographs" <clark@...> wrote:

> For my 1160, which has the original Piezo
> ink, it makes sense that I should simply try
> the PiezoTone Selenium... Are you suggesting
> a modified software approach over the
> standard Piezo driver?? Wasn't sure as I read
> your note, now for the 4th time...?
> 
Many of us have found that the Piezotones do not work well with the original
piezo driver, because the profiles are not good given the slightly different
densities of the Piezotones.  Not sure what OS you are running, but
Openprintmaker/Ink Jet Control is currently the best option for a 1160 with
the Piezotones using a Mac.

> 
> P.S. One friend wrote the following offline,
> and I too wish all this was easier to grasp,
> and to execute. It will be in time, I guess...
>>>  ...i honestly think that that whole
>>> quadtone approach is a bunch of
>>> hassle, due to no way to softproof it.
>>> it's too rubegoldberg for me....the
>>> more i mess with this crap, the less
>>>  messin' with it, the less riggin', the
>>> less BS, the better. honestly, i'm not
>>> happy with ANY output i've seen, from
>>> ANY of the printers. really. honestly.
>>> down deep.

I think that the fact that he/she is happy with any output that he/she has
seen is great for that person, but is certainly not the case for many on
this list.  There are many more options for good BW digital printing than
there were a year ago...and probably many more yet to come...but they are
certainly not all equivalent...as Paul has hilighted.

Robert

Clark,

>... Do you like ESFA as well?

No.  It prints blotchy for me. Perhaps it's an ink load problem, but
whatever it is, I find it and Crane Museo to be way down my list of paper's
I'd use.

>For my 1160, which has the original Piezo
>ink, it makes sense that I should simply try
>the PiezoTone Selenium... Are you suggesting
>a modified software approach over the
>standard Piezo driver?

One of the many nice things about the old quad printers like the 1160 is
that you can use either the Piezo driver or the Epson driver with the same
ink setup (not true for hextone printers).  There are curves in the Files
section of this forum (and also that several of us have) that allow the
Piezo inks to print with the Epson driver.  This results in a better black
dmax, among other things.

>P.S. One friend wrote the following offline,
>and I too wish all this was easier to grasp,
>and to execute. It will be in time, I guess...
>>>\ufffd...i honestly think that that whole
>>> quadtone approach is a bunch of
>>> hassle, due to no way to softproof it.

You can calibrate your monitor.

>>> it's too rubegoldberg for me....the
>>> more i mess with this crap, the less
>>>\ufffdmessin' with it, the less riggin', the
>>> less BS, the better.

Easier would be better, but at what cost in terms of image quality?  I
wonder if this person ever does high-quality wet darkroom printing.  I
frankly don't expect a simple procedure to produce the best prints.

>>> honestly, i'm not
>>> happy with ANY output i've seen, from
>>> ANY of the printers. really. honestly.
>>> down deep.

Well, to me, the matte finish does give a non-photo impression at first.
You'll see a lot of people trying to achieve the "air-dried, fiber-based
silver-print" look here, and we're not there yet.  I'd guess that is a part
of the reaction of your friend.

On the other hand, under glass my quad prints generally look superior to my
silver prints.  Also, having become accustomed to the matte look, I now find
the reflections off most simple glossy photos to be worse than the flat
matte look.  (I really dislike reflections interfering with the photo and
lowering the dmax.  One of my projects has been to perfect the polyurethane
(or other) coating system so that I can get rid of the glass.)

At any rate, I guess we all have different tolerances for the negatives of
the quad printing systems.  I tried all sorts of ways to get good B&W output
from my digital files (Imagesetter, LVT, and Fujix Pictograph internegatives
to silver, dye and color pigment inks, among others) and the inkjet quad is
the only approach I've been satisfied with.

(Frankly, I'm not sure I want a simple push-button system to be able to
match the work I do.  Like I said, the 7500 with Ultra Tones and an EEM roll
is almost too cheap and easy now.)

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

hello Paul,
i'm most interested to know what product you use, and might recommend,
for protecting your prints. I remember an extensive discussion many months ago
about coatings with the Mayer rod, but I never experimented with one because the
consensus, if I remember correctly, was that the headache and time did not justify
the results. is that true?
do you -- or anyone else who may be reading -- know the relative merits of the several
companies who manufacture the so-called fixative "archival" aerosal sprays for digital
prints?

thanks.

Peter

Paul Roark wrote:

> Clark,
>
> >... Do you like ESFA as well?
>
> No.  It prints blotchy for me. Perhaps it's an ink load problem, but
> whatever it is, I find it and Crane Museo to be way down my list of paper's
> I'd use.
>
> >For my 1160, which has the original Piezo
> >ink, it makes sense that I should simply try
> >the PiezoTone Selenium... Are you suggesting
> >a modified software approach over the
> >standard Piezo driver?
>
> One of the many nice things about the old quad printers like the 1160 is
> that you can use either the Piezo driver or the Epson driver with the same
> ink setup (not true for hextone printers).  There are curves in the Files
> section of this forum (and also that several of us have) that allow the
> Piezo inks to print with the Epson driver.  This results in a better black
> dmax, among other things.
>
> >P.S. One friend wrote the following offline,
> >and I too wish all this was easier to grasp,
> >and to execute. It will be in time, I guess...
> >>>\ufffd...i honestly think that that whole
> >>> quadtone approach is a bunch of
> >>> hassle, due to no way to softproof it.
>
> You can calibrate your monitor.
>
> >>> it's too rubegoldberg for me....the
> >>> more i mess with this crap, the less
> >>>\ufffdmessin' with it, the less riggin', the
> >>> less BS, the better.
>
> Easier would be better, but at what cost in terms of image quality?  I
> wonder if this person ever does high-quality wet darkroom printing.  I
> frankly don't expect a simple procedure to produce the best prints.
>
> >>> honestly, i'm not
> >>> happy with ANY output i've seen, from
> >>> ANY of the printers. really. honestly.
> >>> down deep.
>
> Well, to me, the matte finish does give a non-photo impression at first.
> You'll see a lot of people trying to achieve the "air-dried, fiber-based
> silver-print" look here, and we're not there yet.  I'd guess that is a part
> of the reaction of your friend.
>
> On the other hand, under glass my quad prints generally look superior to my
> silver prints.  Also, having become accustomed to the matte look, I now find
> the reflections off most simple glossy photos to be worse than the flat
> matte look.  (I really dislike reflections interfering with the photo and
> lowering the dmax.  One of my projects has been to perfect the polyurethane
> (or other) coating system so that I can get rid of the glass.)
>
> At any rate, I guess we all have different tolerances for the negatives of
> the quad printing systems.  I tried all sorts of ways to get good B&W output
> from my digital files (Imagesetter, LVT, and Fujix Pictograph internegatives
> to silver, dye and color pigment inks, among others) and the inkjet quad is
> the only approach I've been satisfied with.
>
> (Frankly, I'm not sure I want a simple push-button system to be able to
> match the work I do.  Like I said, the 7500 with Ultra Tones and an EEM roll
> is almost too cheap and easy now.)
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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I am a long time BW wet printer and lurking here as I am interested in the possibilities of piezo. I am finding this thread very interesting - although the abbreviations are a touch difficult to follow for a would be piezo newbie.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: simplephotographs 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 4:32 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Which B&W system/too broad I know


  Paul,

  Was afraid I'd be slammed, but instead
  you wrote a very useful and thought
  provoking response.

  I've read it three times already, and I am
  encouraged. Thank you!

  For my 7000, I see MIS Ultra Tones and EEM as 
  a good answer. Do you like ESFA as well?

  For my 1160, which has the original Piezo 
  ink, it makes sense that I should simply try 
  the PiezoTone Selenium... Are you suggesting 
  a modified software approach over the 
  standard Piezo driver?? Wasn't sure as I read 
  your note, now for the 4th time...?

  Maybe I'll let the 3000 sit idle a little 
  longer, then use it as a Sepia machine.

  Thank you for giving me the nudge in a 
  direction I can feel good about.

  Regards,

  Clark Thomas
  www.simplephotographs.com

  P.S. One friend wrote the following offline, 
  and I too wish all this was easier to grasp,
  and to execute. It will be in time, I guess...
  >> ...i honestly think that that whole 
  >> quadtone approach is a bunch of 
  >> hassle, due to no way to softproof it. 
  >> it's too rubegoldberg for me....the 
  >> more i mess with this crap, the less 
  >> messin' with it, the less riggin', the 
  >> less BS, the better. honestly, i'm not 
  >> happy with ANY output i've seen, from 
  >> ANY of the printers. really. honestly. 
  >> down deep.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

THE Tim Rudman as in "The Photographer's Toning Book", "The Master 
Photographer's Lith Printing Course" et al?

If you are (and you fess up) perhaps we can engage you in some talk about 
the confluence of the alt and digital photo worlds?

David



At 07:49 PM 5/1/03 +0100, you wrote:
>I am a long time BW wet printer and lurking here as I am interested in the 
>possibilities of piezo. I am finding this thread very interesting - 
>although the abbreviations are a touch difficult to follow for a would be 
>piezo newbie.

David Jackson
First Year Experience Program
Tulane University

Voice: (504) 865-5264
Fax:    (504) 862-8455
Email: lagniap@...

Peter, I use a 22" rod and Hydrocote and I really really like the result!
The finish is not like luster or semi-gloss both of which do not really
appeal to me.  It's a smooth finish that reminds me of a fine silver print.
The problem tho, is that you have to fuss a bit learning exactly how much
pressure to allow on the rod, how fast or slowly you move the rod, and how
not to change speeds as the draw the rod across your print.  Even with care,
you won't--in my experience-- always get a perfect coat. But when you get it
right, it's very nice.  If you have any questions don't hesitate to email me
off the list or on it. (I'm not familiar with exact forum protocol).
Joe

Joe,

I think there are a number of us who would like to perfect the rod coating
process.  So, it might be useful to keep that discussion on the forum.

When I had to go to other issues, I was trying several things to try to get
a more even coating.

I think a half inch glass, perhaps "floating" on a towel that is one as flat
a surface as you can find might help.

Also, the rods are sometimes used with soft surfaces.  Diversified has a pad
they put on top of the glass.  I think this also may help with evenness. I
was seeing if cloth helped (no luck yet).  With 8x10s even a couple of
pieces of plain paper under the print seemed to help the rod coating
evenness.  It may be worth buying one of Diversified's pads to see what they
are.

Some paper-ink combinations may need the Hydrocote to be diluted slightly.

I bought some of the "satin" Hydrocote to see how it does.  A few seem to
prefer it.

Several people think the HVLP sprayers are the way to go.  I've seen some
good samples of such work, but the rod is much easier if it can be mastered.

I do think the polyurethane (PUR) coating is worth putting some effort into
to perfect.  It may give the nicest surface, and one that is washable and
needs no glazing.  The 1.90+ dmax really looks good with no glass over it.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
_______________________

-----Original Message-----
From: joe davajon [mailto:davajon@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 1:30 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Which B&W system/too broad I know


 Peter, I use a 22" rod and Hydrocote and I really really like the result!
The finish is not like luster or semi-gloss both of which do not really
appeal to me.  It's a smooth finish that reminds me of a fine silver print.
The problem tho, is that you have to fuss a bit learning exactly how much
pressure to allow on the rod, how fast or slowly you move the rod, and how
not to change speeds as the draw the rod across your print.  Even with care,
you won't--in my experience-- always get a perfect coat. But when you get it
right, it's very nice.  If you have any questions don't hesitate to email me
off the list or on it. (I'm not familiar with exact forum protocol).
Joe



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Today I've been reading the archive about 
OpenPrintMaker and have been attempting to 
hold and organize all the relevant details 
and variations in my head at once.

My head is not suited to such a challenge.

But I can, especially thanks to Paul Roark's 
generous post, feel pretty confident about 
the first steps of choosing a particular 
printer to work with, and a particular ink. 
Actually 'achieving it' will probably take a 
week or so to get those two things 
functioning on a spare table in my work 
room. Then, I believe my head will be ready 
to SEE some initial output, and then be 
ready to consider whether Antonis's 
OpenPrintMaker and InkjetControl will make 
sense for the following week's focus.

A week or two isn't long - though it may be 
even longer if my regular work keeps me busy 
cranking color prints out of my 9600.

But... I have a VISION of something that 
would help. Help all of us maybe, but at 
least me - 52 year old guy with 37 years 
experience in wet darkrooms (and three sons 
ages 2, 4 and 6, which I'm certain has SOME 
effect on my limited brain power of late).

A detailed chart (of some kind), or maybe a 
web site of individual pages dedicated to 
the description and presentation of various 
list members' methods, materials, and 
evaluations. It could be set up like a 
database, so you could select those who use 
7000's or 2200's, or those who use MIS Ultra 
Tones or Selenium Piezotones.

This might not include just anybody who 
wanted to be included (like a print exchange 
might) - but this could be intended to 
describe the 'more successful' or more 
'satisfactory' solutions that people have 
come up with for producing great black & 
white prints. Each 'solution' would have 
'Pros' and 'Cons' and maybe be written 
somewhat like 'reviews' of each system. Some 
might just describe incomplete 'experiments 
in progress'...

Exactly how it's set up would require more 
thinking, and some work - but it could be 
immensely useful. We could say things about 
how things work together that aren't being 
said anywhere else.

The physical structure of an eGroup doesn't 
make "grasping the big picture" of someone's 
setup so easy to grasp -- but some OTHER 
KIND of structure could somehow be created
for our members.

My vision is that each description would be 
designed to function as a mini-visit to 
someone's HOME with an overview of how they 
do their printing. Certain people would have 
multiple listings, if they have more than 
one way of making their prints.

Maybe everybody (who wants to) SHOULD be 
part of it, because some people who do many 
things wrong, like those who've not yet 
calibrated their monitors (like me!) yet 
somehow still manage to make wonderful 
prints on a regular basis.

I'll stop with this, for now. It's late and 
I'm bleary eyed. Maybe it couldn't work. 
Maybe I should hop in a car or plane and 
just visit everyone in person and write it 
up in a book, or maybe Tim Rudman will. But 
that's a ways off at best. Unlikely at the 
least.

But I'd be willing to set up a dedicated web 
site - if there was sufficient interest. 
Yes? No?

I may regret this in the morning, but I hope not.

Clark Thomas
www.simplephotographs.com

Clark Thomas wrote:
> But... I have a VISION of something that
> would help. Help all of us maybe, but at
> least me - 52 year old guy with 37 years
> experience in wet darkrooms (and three sons
> ages 2, 4 and 6, which I'm certain has SOME
> effect on my limited brain power of late).

Clark, let me applaud your vision and encourage 
you to take this further. (Let me also express
solidarity with your mental condition: I'm 54, 
developed my first film 41 years back, and my
daughters are aged 4 and 6.)
 
> A detailed chart (of some kind), or maybe a
> web site of individual pages dedicated to
> the description and presentation of various
> list members' methods, materials, and
> evaluations. It could be set up like a
> database, so you could select those who use
> 7000's or 2200's, or those who use MIS Ultra
> Tones or Selenium Piezotones.

A very useful project. There are lots of people on
this list who could contribute short illustrated
accounts of what they do. While I am keen on
databases for some tasks, this project might work
better in a simpler, less structured form. Just
offering a text search of the site might make the
information accessible.

I just looked at your website, and liked its clarity
and simplicity. < www.simplephotographs.com >
Something similarly clear and straightforward
would do for this project too...

I like encouraging other people to do things...


Peter Marquis-Kyle
www.marquis-kyle.com.au

On fredag, maj 2, 2003, at 06:25 Europe/Stockholm, Paul Roark wrote:

> Joe,
>
> I think there are a number of us who would like to perfect the rod 
> coating
> process.  So, it might be useful to keep that discussion on the forum.

As I'm a newbie in these matters I would like to know more about 
coating. With or without a rod. :-)

Are there any websites that would be enlighting?

cheers,
henrik

Didn't we do a Meyer Rod thread last year? Isn't this stuff in the
archives? 

-----Original Message-----
From: Henrik Frejborg [mailto:henrik.frejborg@...] 
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 7:30 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Rod coating, was Which B&W system/too broad I
know


On fredag, maj 2, 2003, at 06:25 Europe/Stockholm, Paul Roark wrote:

> Joe,
>
> I think there are a number of us who would like to perfect the rod 
> coating
> process.  So, it might be useful to keep that discussion on the forum.

As I'm a newbie in these matters I would like to know more about 
coating. With or without a rod. :-)

Are there any websites that would be enlighting?

cheers,
henrik



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>Didn't we do a Meyer Rod thread last year? Isn't this stuff in the
>archives?

Yes, but I don't think anyone ever perfected the technique to the point
where they can consistently get a good coating on a print larger than 8x10
with a rod.

I had to put my experiments on hold due to other priorities, but I do intend
to re-visit the process when time permits.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Henrik Frejborg [mailto:henrik.frejborg@...]
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 7:30 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Rod coating, was Which B&W system/too broad I
know


On fredag, maj 2, 2003, at 06:25 Europe/Stockholm, Paul Roark wrote:

> Joe,
>
> I think there are a number of us who would like to perfect the rod
> coating
> process.  So, it might be useful to keep that discussion on the forum.

As I'm a newbie in these matters I would like to know more about
coating. With or without a rod. :-)

Are there any websites that would be enlighting?

cheers,
henrik



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

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I'm addressing the frustrated person who wrote to say that he or 
she found quadtone printing too complex.

1.  In the Feb-Mar issue of Camera Arts, George De Wolfe said 
that the Epson RIP software for the 2200 produces results very 
close to quadtone.  This is a cheap alternative to more advanced 
RIP systems. I tried it & found that it produces interesting prints 
that are not neutral, but look as if they were richly selenium 
toned.  

2.  A more neutral result can be obtained by using the 
Photo-Enhanced setting for the regular 2200 driver.  When I first 
read about this, I dismissed it as it as a crackpot idea - use a 
distorted color setting to make neutral BW prints?  But it does 
indeed work, & produces prints that look as if they were printed 
on cold-tone paper & toned in a dilute selenium solution for 
archival preservation (i.e., a very slight warming of the upper 
zones).  

These are two options for those who don't choose a quadtone 
system.  While quadtone prints might achieve another increment 
of excellence, these options look better than all but the best 
printers can produce in a darkroom.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Kirk Thompson" 
<thompsonkirk@h...> wrote:
> I'm addressing the frustrated person who wrote to say that he or 
> she found quadtone printing too complex.
  

> 2.  A more neutral result can be obtained by using the 
> Photo-Enhanced setting for the regular 2200 driver.  When I first 
> read about this, I dismissed it as it as a crackpot idea - use a 
> distorted color setting to make neutral BW prints?  But it does 
> indeed work, & produces prints that look as if they were printed 
> on cold-tone paper & toned in a dilute selenium solution for 
> archival preservation (i.e., a very slight warming of the upper 
> zones).

The Epson RIP addresses the metamerism problem, not mere 
neutrality.   You can achieve neutrality with the regular in-box 
drivers that ship with the printer but the catch is that they have 
metamerism, i.e., they are only neutral for your intended light 
source.

Kirk,
Just tried your suggestion for neutral B&W with the Epson 2200 driver 
(your option 2 below). As you said, to expect that using the driver's 
'PhotoEnhance' setting could result in prints "that look as if they were 
done on cold-tone paper & toned in a dilute selenium solution for archival 
preservation i.e., a very slight warming of the upper zones)" seems 
pretty crazy. But like you, this is just what I found. I like these prints
as well as the best prints of the same images that I've been able to get 
from my 1160 with FSN ink and Randall method.
I used Eclipse paper and converted the image to RGB before printing (no 
additional changes to the image).
Other settings used:
  - main driver panel: paper='EEM', ink='Color', mode='Custom'
  - driver 'custom' panel: print quality='1440', high-speed='off',
       color mgmt='PhotoEnhance4', tone='monochrome', sharpness='none'
  - print panel: space='RGB', PrinterColorMgmt-switch='on'

Thanks very much for this very useful tip.
John 
                        

Original Message ----- 

  From: Kirk Thompson 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 6:36 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Which B&W system/too broad I know


  I'm addressing the frustrated person who wrote to say that he or 
  she found quadtone printing too complex.

  1.  In the Feb-Mar issue of Camera Arts, George De Wolfe said 
  that the Epson RIP software for the 2200 produces results very 
  close to quadtone.  This is a cheap alternative to more advanced 
  RIP systems. I tried it & found that it produces interesting prints 
  that are not neutral, but look as if they were richly selenium 
  toned.  

  2.  A more neutral result can be obtained by using the 
  Photo-Enhanced setting for the regular 2200 driver.  When I first 
  read about this, I dismissed it as it as a crackpot idea - use a 
  distorted color setting to make neutral BW prints?  But it does 
  indeed work, & produces prints that look as if they were printed 
  on cold-tone paper & toned in a dilute selenium solution for 
  archival preservation (i.e., a very slight warming of the upper 
  zones).  

  These are two options for those who don't choose a quadtone 
  system.  While quadtone prints might achieve another increment 
  of excellence, these options look better than all but the best 
  printers can produce in a darkroom.   




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  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

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  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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