Digital BW, The Print

Martin,
I have mixed Generations with VM inks, no problem. I use the enhanced
black with the MIS VM quads now. (I'm patiently waiting for another pint
of enhanced black from Media Street).  I have colored the Original Piezo
inks and the MIS VM inkset with Enhanced black, and in the case of the
piezo inks, I mixed MIS Archival Cyan and Magenta inks in with the Piezo
inks to cool them down.  Epson, MIS and Generations 3 and 4 are
compatible, as is the original piezo quads. I Don't know about piezotone
inks though, and I KNOW that Generations 4 and  5 are NOT compatible.

jerry

On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 01:13:41PM -0500, Jerry Olson wrote:
> Martin,
> I have mixed Generations with VM inks, no problem. I use the enhanced
> black with the MIS VM quads now. (I'm patiently waiting for another pint
> of enhanced black from Media Street).  I have colored the Original Piezo
> inks and the MIS VM inkset with Enhanced black, and in the case of the
> piezo inks, I mixed MIS Archival Cyan and Magenta inks in with the Piezo
> inks to cool them down.  Epson, MIS and Generations 3 and 4 are
> compatible, as is the original piezo quads. I Don't know about piezotone
> inks though, and I KNOW that Generations 4 and  5 are NOT compatible.
> 

Jerry,

What about warming/fading of the Generations black? It may be great right out of
the printer but I've heard it fades more than any of the other blacks, I
presume because of the dye content.

Are you not, after a period of time, ending up with about the same dmax as 
the standard MIS black? 

Are there test results showing the various comparisons? I can't remember
seeing any but I may have blinked!

-- 
Tony Terlecki
ajt@...

----- Original Message -----

From: "Tony Terlecki" <ajt@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Gen 4 Black was Ink decisions


> On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 01:13:41PM -0500, Jerry Olson wrote:
> > Martin,
> > I have mixed Generations with VM inks, no problem. I use the enhanced
> > black with the MIS VM quads now. (I'm patiently waiting for another pint
> > of enhanced black from Media Street).  I have colored the Original Piezo
> > inks and the MIS VM inkset with Enhanced black, and in the case of the
> > piezo inks, I mixed MIS Archival Cyan and Magenta inks in with the Piezo
> > inks to cool them down.  Epson, MIS and Generations 3 and 4 are
> > compatible, as is the original piezo quads. I Don't know about piezotone
> > inks though, and I KNOW that Generations 4 and  5 are NOT compatible.
> >
>
> Jerry,
>
> What about warming/fading of the Generations black? It may be great right
out of
> the printer but I've heard it fades more than any of the other blacks, I
> presume because of the dye content.
>
> Are you not, after a period of time, ending up with about the same dmax as
> the standard MIS black?
>
> Are there test results showing the various comparisons? I can't remember
> seeing any but I may have blinked!
>

Tony,

Go to this folder in the groups Files section to see a comparison between
PiezoTone and MIS-FS black inks:

Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones > PiezoTone vs MIS-FS

Then go to this folder to see a comparison between Indelible, Generations
and MIS-FS Black:

Files > Ink Sets > MIS

It looks like the Generations black might be significantly better than the
PT black in terms of warm//fade but as you say not as good as MIS black.

Martin Wesley

Jerry,

I really like the Selenium-PiezoTones but from Paul's tests the black
doesn't hold up as well as the Generations black. So I was thinking of
replacing the blacks but the Selenium-PT black is pretty warm and I suspect
that the Generations is more neutral. I was considering using the MIS
concentrated tinting inks to warm it up, a bit of M and Y. Don't really feel
like tinkering around but it never seems to end.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Gen 4 Black was Ink decisions


> Martin,
> I have mixed Generations with VM inks, no problem. I use the enhanced
> black with the MIS VM quads now. (I'm patiently waiting for another pint
> of enhanced black from Media Street).  I have colored the Original Piezo
> inks and the MIS VM inkset with Enhanced black, and in the case of the
> piezo inks, I mixed MIS Archival Cyan and Magenta inks in with the Piezo
> inks to cool them down.  Epson, MIS and Generations 3 and 4 are
> compatible, as is the original piezo quads. I Don't know about piezotone
> inks though, and I KNOW that Generations 4 and  5 are NOT compatible.
>
> jerry
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
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&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

There is no warming after 300 hours in Paul Roars torture chamber.  I have
had an image in a south window without change in 3 months. Kodak said it was
good to 35-40 years. That's good enough for me.

I would much rather have 35 years with great blacks than weak prints that
last 400 years. 

Jerry

> 
> What about warming/fading of the Generations black? It may be great right out
> of
> the printer but I've heard it fades more than any of the other blacks, I
> presume because of the dye content.
> 
> Are you not, after a period of time, ending up with about the same dmax as
> the standard MIS black?
> 
> Are there test results showing the various comparisons? I can't remember
> seeing any but I may have blinked!

Tony, it doesn't warm if you use Paul Roark's COOL or COLD curves, which I
do.

>> What about warming/fading of the Generations black? It may be great right
> out of
>> the printer but I've heard it fades more than any of the other blacks, I
>> presume because of the dye content.

>> Are you not, after a period of time, ending up with about the same dmax as
>> the standard MIS black?

I've never seen enhanced black ink fade in normal viewing conditions in the
4 years I've been using it.

Jerry

Hi Martin,

I've never heard of "Tinting inks" and I don't think I'll go there.

Yes, Enhanced Generations is quite neutral, and VERY dense. Its just a tiny
little bit cool, compared to most black inks.

Jerry

Jerry and others,

Just over two years ago before buying a CIS/Inkset for my 1170 I recieved 3
Generations/EAM test swatches from NoMoreCarts.  I taped two on my monitors,
one in my home, one at my beach place.  These were subjected to normal
indirect sunlight, incandescent light and normal household atmosphere, the
beach swatch got a constant Atlantic exposure.  The last I left in the
envelope in a drawer.
A recent scan is at:  http://www.pbase.com/image/4527519
The top is the drawer, middle the beach, bottom the house.  I don't know if
the results, (or almost non-results) have any meaning.

Phil Morse

Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Gen 4 Black was Ink decisions


> There is no warming after 300 hours in Paul Roars torture chamber.  I have
> had an image in a south window without change in 3 months. Kodak said it
was
> good to 35-40 years. That's good enough for me.
> Jerry
> >
> > What about warming/fading of the Generations black? It may be great
right out

> > of
> > the printer but I've heard it fades more than any of the other blacks, I
> > presume because of the dye content.

On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 11:45:32AM -0700, Martin Wesley wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tony Terlecki" <ajt@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 11:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Gen 4 Black was Ink decisions
> 
> 
> > On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 01:13:41PM -0500, Jerry Olson wrote:
> > > Martin,
> > > I have mixed Generations with VM inks, no problem. I use the enhanced
> > > black with the MIS VM quads now. (I'm patiently waiting for another pint
> > > of enhanced black from Media Street).  I have colored the Original Piezo
> > > inks and the MIS VM inkset with Enhanced black, and in the case of the
> > > piezo inks, I mixed MIS Archival Cyan and Magenta inks in with the Piezo
> > > inks to cool them down.  Epson, MIS and Generations 3 and 4 are
> > > compatible, as is the original piezo quads. I Don't know about piezotone
> > > inks though, and I KNOW that Generations 4 and  5 are NOT compatible.
> > >
> >
> > Jerry,
> >
> > What about warming/fading of the Generations black? It may be great right
> out of
> > the printer but I've heard it fades more than any of the other blacks, I
> > presume because of the dye content.
> >
> > Are you not, after a period of time, ending up with about the same dmax as
> > the standard MIS black?
> >
> > Are there test results showing the various comparisons? I can't remember
> > seeing any but I may have blinked!
> >
> 
> Tony,
> 
> Go to this folder in the groups Files section to see a comparison between
> PiezoTone and MIS-FS black inks:
> 
> Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones > PiezoTone vs MIS-FS
> 
> Then go to this folder to see a comparison between Indelible, Generations
> and MIS-FS Black:
> 
> Files > Ink Sets > MIS
> 
> It looks like the Generations black might be significantly better than the
> PT black in terms of warm//fade but as you say not as good as MIS black.
> 

Thanks for the pointers Martin. No clear winners then! Each seems to have
strengths and weaknesses although I am suprised a bit at the extent to which
the FS inks warmed and faded. I might give the FS inks a miss altogether
with my testing and just try the FSN and VM inks. 

Do you know if the black in the VM inkset is the same as that for the FS and
FSN inksets?

-- 
Tony Terlecki
ajt@...

Tony,

You wrote:



>... I am suprised a bit at the extent to which
>the FS inks warmed and faded. I might give the FS inks a miss altogether
>with my testing and just try the FSN and VM inks.

>Do you know if the black in the VM inkset is the same as that for
>the FS and FSN inksets?

The black ink in the FS and VM inksets is the same.  The warming
characteristics of the midtones are quite different among the various MIS
inksets, however.  The FS-N does not warm significantly on EAM.  That ink is
also the base for the vm-sepia inkset.  The standard MIS VM inkset uses the
original MIS quad gray inks and, as such, will warm.  It seems to warm more
when the warm curves are used than when the cool curves are used.  I think
the stability of the cyan pigment is probably behind this.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Seems to speak very well for the Generations Inks, I think.  I too
haven't noticed any fade worth talking about, when using Generations.

Jerry

Phil & Marilu Morse wrote:

> 
> Jerry and others,
> 
> Just over two years ago before buying a CIS/Inkset for my 1170 I recieved 3
> Generations/EAM test swatches from NoMoreCarts.  I taped two on my monitors,
> one in my home, one at my beach place.  These were subjected to normal
> indirect sunlight, incandescent light and normal household atmosphere, the
> beach swatch got a constant Atlantic exposure.  The last I left in the
> envelope in a drawer.
> A recent scan is at:  http://www.pbase.com/image/4527519
> The top is the drawer, middle the beach, bottom the house.  I don't know if
> the results, (or almost non-results) have any meaning.
> 
> Phil Morse
> 
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Gen 4 Black was Ink decisions
> 
> > There is no warming after 300 hours in Paul Roars torture chamber.  I have
> > had an image in a south window without change in 3 months. Kodak said it
> was
> > good to 35-40 years. That's good enough for me.
> > Jerry
> > >
> > > What about warming/fading of the Generations black? It may be great
> right out
> > > of
> > > the printer but I've heard it fades more than any of the other blacks, I
> > > presume because of the dye content.
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Jerry,

So, if I'm going to go with the MIS FS inks, do you think it would be a
good idea to go with the Generations Enhanced Black ink with it? And is
that the same as Generations 4? 

thanks,
Barbara

Jerry Olson wrote:
> 
> There is no warming after 300 hours in Paul Roars torture chamber.  I have
> had an image in a south window without change in 3 months. Kodak said it was
> good to 35-40 years. That's good enough for me.
> 
> I would much rather have 35 years with great blacks than weak prints that
> last 400 years.
> 
Barbara White Architectural Photography
http://www.barbarawhitephoto.com

Yes. I'm using the MIS VM inks, because I like the idea of being able to
make any color toned print you want from blue to brown, or dead on
neutral in the same inkset. I haven't used the FS inks, so I'm not
absolutely certain they are compatible with Generations Enhanced Black,
but I would assume they are, as all MIS inks are all compatible with one
another as far as I know.  You might ask Paul Roark about compatibility.
Generations (Media Street) sells many different black inks. I think that
the enhanced black is now standard with Generations 4. Generations 5
inks are different, and not compatible with Gen. 4 inks.

> Jerry,
>

Jerry,

If you want to change from MIS-VM black to the Enhanced Generations 
black in a CIS system can you simply pour the new ink into the black 
bottle and gradually wait for the old black to be replaced, or do 
you have to make an elaborate cartridge replacement and tube 
cleaning?  

Andy Unger 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Yes. I'm using the MIS VM inks, because I like the idea of being 
able to
> make any color toned print you want from blue to brown, or dead on
> neutral in the same inkset. I haven't used the FS inks, so I'm not
> absolutely certain they are compatible with Generations Enhanced 
Black,
> but I would assume they are, as all MIS inks are all compatible 
with one
> another as far as I know.  You might ask Paul Roark about 
compatibility.
> Generations (Media Street) sells many different black inks. I 
think that
> the enhanced black is now standard with Generations 4. Generations 
5

> inks are different, and not compatible with Gen. 4 inks.
> 
> > Jerry,
> >