Digital BW, The Print

I have been printing with an Epson 870, printing BW in grayscale mostly to
glossy paper and have been satisfied with the most aspects of the process
except, of course, its not neutral Black & White.  It mostly goes green.
After following this group and talking to others, I purchased a new
old-stock 860 and ordered Lyson QB (neutral) carts from inkjetgoodies (who
have been very helpful).   Though Lyson suggested cleaning carts even with a
new printer, Greg at InkjetGoodies felt is was ok to just go with the Lyson
carts.   I did so.

The printing is horrible.  It is much, much too light.  After talking to
Greg, it was clear the color nozzles were clogged and the test patterns
confirmed this.   I ran 2 purge sheet tests through, then about 6 cleaning
cycles and turned it off for 8 hours.   Initially the purge sheet didn't
even show the 2 middle bars and the 3rd bar of the color cart was badly
banded horizontally.   Now it the test pattern is perfect and the purge test
pattern is even, though I still feel it is too light.   And the ink looks
more magenta/blue or a purple then black.

I set a monitor profile to match the light printing.   This forces me in
PHotoshop to really change the levels to what is obviously not correct -
large incursion into the black especially.   But this prints much closer to
what I see on the screen the the print quality is now getting in the
ballpark.   But it would be impossible to use this monitor profile as
everything is much too bright, its hard to look at the screen.

I have done tests on Epson photo paper, usually at 720 for the tests.   I
normally print on Epson Premium Glossy.   I've been printing from grayscale
files in PS 5.5; Color Controls on but no adjustments, space: grayscale,
pcm: on or off (doesn't seem to matter with grayscale).

I also tried converting the grayscale file, a BW scan using a Canon 2720,
to RGB and printing with space:rgb and space:grayscale with pcm: on
and off for each.  Didn't help.

Rick Schiller
www.rickschiller.com

I recently put Lyson QB straight into a new 1160 and although it took 3-4
cleaning cycles, the system settled down OK. Would I use a flushing
cartridge next time with a new printer? ...Have to think about that one, I
think I was lucky :-))

I've been trying various settings and even had a chat with someone from
Lyson, who clarified some settings info. Their 'preferred' method is to go
from Greyscale ->RGB and then print with your print space set at
GreyGamma1.8, no colour adjustment. The ink setting was for photo glossy
film. (I was using Lyson Premium satin paper, but others produced similarly
good results)

Having now tried quite a few variations, this simple set-up works for the
majority of images, although I do have an adjustment curve that I produced
which will improve deep shadows on -some- images.

The lightness problem you describe looks similar to when I imported a
greyscale wedge tagged with one space, to the Grey Gamma2.2 working space I
use for B/W. I found that it looked far too light, and the eye-dropper
showed that the 50% step was actually at ~35%.


The set-up I have now for PS6 (mac) is:
Monitor at Gamma1.8 and temp6500
Working space Grey Gamma2.2

The QB neutral set of inks is only really neutral with a bit of daylight
coming into the room :-)) It has however produced some very pleasing results
with my (mostly landscape) subjects.

Anyone else out there using Lyson QB who would like to comment? What
workflows are you using?


Keith Cooper
Leicester, England

Having seen a few posts lately regarding Lysonic inks,
I figure I should opine here with my experiences with
both Quad neutral and SG inks.

SG:  Clog, clog, clog!  Metamerism...and, left
unprotected exposed to indoor lighting (on EAM) a
significant amount of fading in less than a year.
Oh, and did I say metamerism?

Quad Black Neutral:  Clog, clog, clog!  Metamerism.
Purple prints in tungsten lighting, neutral in
daylight.

Both inks print nicely; however, I gave up on them
because I couldn't put up with the constant clogging
and the purple prints.  I purchased a CIS for my 1160
and switched to MIS FS inks and have been printing
happily ever after.  Oh, I actually use one of Paul's
curves for the VM inks which I found printed less
contrasty and exhibited finer transitions in the
shadow areas.

If someone needs the occasional RC print, I spray.

Thom

Hello Thom,
Sorry about your experience with the Lyson Small Gamut inks. I on the other hand, have not had your 
experience with these. The Small Gamut inksets have produced beautiful toned prints for me. I will admit that 
the neutral Quads do have fairly strong metamerism and as result it was one of the reasons I moved to the SG 
set. As for clogs, I haven't seen any with my 1200,  and really don't expect to as these are dye based inks. I 
will keep my eyes pealed
though.

As for light fastness I have'nt been using the inks long enough to notice (6 months with the quads, 2months 
with the SG) any real fading yet on the high end Lyson papers. But again, I will contiue to watch.

What I do like about the Small Gamut sets are the incredible tones I can produce. As I mentioned in one of my 
earlier posts, I come from a long tradition of wet darkroom work. In my fine art printing, I have made use of all 
kinds of toners to add depth and drama to some my images. This is the first set of inks to actually look as 
good as the work I have been producing in the darkroom... AND ... they are much more repeatable. I'm now 
going with a CIS system and using the bulk Small Gamuts that are now available for the 6 color printers.

At some point I may go carbon with another printer, but I will always want to have a systems to give me toned 
and tinted work like I get when I go into the darkroom. For me, at this point though, these SG inks have been a 
god sent.

Gregory Edwards/Toronto

On 4/27/02 10:42 PM, "Rick Schiller" <rschiller@...> wrote:

> Greg at InkjetGoodies felt is was ok to just go with the Lyson
> carts.

Lyson carts are incompatible with all other inks...not cleaning was a big
mistake.  You probably formed salt deposits in the head. You may have
destroyed the printer...but you will definitely need to use a cleaning cart
to try to clean out the head.  You may also want to look at previous posts
in the group on force cleaning the head with a syringe and plastic tube.
Alternatively, you could throw out the cheap printer (that's what I would
do) and get another and this time follow the Lyson directions about
cleaning.

Robert

Hi Gregory,

I certainly agree that the SG inks produce very  good
prints.  I just could not endure my lovely warm prints
turning green as soon as the sun shone through a
window.  And, I was buying cartridges back when they
cost over $70 a pair, so you can imagine how costly
multiple cleaning cycles were.

By the way, on which type of paper do you print?  When
I printed on matte paper (my personal preference) I
only used EAM, which, as I understand it, is not
considered lightfast with dye inks.

I have since reprinted my faded SG prints with MIS FS
inks.  They have warmed a bit, but I do like warm
prints - unlike that guy from Grand Forks <G>.

Thom

--- kdidhjhu <kdidhjhu@...> wrote:
> 
 I on the other hand, have not had your 

> experience with these. The Small Gamut inksets have
> produced beautiful toned prints for me. I will admit
> that 
> the neutral Quads do have fairly strong metamerism
> and as result it was one of the reasons I moved to
> the SG 
> set. As for clogs, I haven't seen any with my 1200, 
> and really don't expect to as these are dye based
> inks. I 
> will keep my eyes pealed
> though.
> 



> Gregory Edwards/Toronto

In a message dated 4/29/02 8:03:02 PM, thom@... writes:

>I have since reprinted my faded SG prints with MIS FS
>inks.  They have warmed a bit, but I do like warm
>prints - unlike that guy from Grand Forks <G>.

There once was a man from Grand Forks
Who liked to shoot pictures of storks
He printed a few
And made them quite blue
Then he claimed they were his master works

Apologies to Jerry, and possibly Garrison...

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

Wrong E-mail
--- Thom McGraw <thom@...> wrote:
> Hi Gregory,
> 
> I certainly agree that the SG inks produce very 
> good
> prints.  I just could not endure my lovely warm
> prints
> turning green as soon as the sun shone through a
> window.  And, I was buying cartridges back when they
> cost over $70 a pair, so you can imagine how costly
> multiple cleaning cycles were.
> 
> By the way, on which type of paper do you print? 
> When
> I printed on matte paper (my personal preference) I
> only used EAM, which, as I understand it, is not
> considered lightfast with dye inks.
> 
> I have since reprinted my faded SG prints with MIS
> FS
> inks.  They have warmed a bit, but I do like warm
> prints - unlike that guy from Grand Forks <G>.
> 
> Thom
> 
> --- kdidhjhu <kdidhjhu@...> wrote:
> > 
>  I on the other hand, have not had your 
> > experience with these. The Small Gamut inksets
> have
> > produced beautiful toned prints for me. I will
> admit
> > that 
> > the neutral Quads do have fairly strong metamerism
> > and as result it was one of the reasons I moved to
> > the SG 
> > set. As for clogs, I haven't seen any with my
> 1200, 
> > and really don't expect to as these are dye based
> > inks. I 
> > will keep my eyes pealed
> > though.
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> > Gregory Edwards/Toronto
> 
> 


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Heh!

Never shot a stork in me life. I like cold prints, not blue ones. They only looked blue when seen at the same time warm prints were viewed.
By themselves, they don't look blue. :).

Me (from Grand Forks)




CDTobie@... wrote:

> In a message dated 4/29/02 8:03:02 PM, thom@... writes:
>
> >I have since reprinted my faded SG prints with MIS FS
> >inks.  They have warmed a bit, but I do like warm
> >prints - unlike that guy from Grand Forks <G>.
>
> There once was a man from Grand Forks
> Who liked to shoot pictures of storks
> He printed a few
> And made them quite blue
> Then he claimed they were his master works
>
> Apologies to Jerry, and possibly Garrison...
>
> C. David Tobie
> Design Cooperative
> CDTobie@...
>
>
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Hi Thom,

What I've been doing is using the EAM to do my proofing with the Small Gamut inkset, then the final prints are  
printed onto Lyson Standard Fine Art, with a little bit of tweeking. I just made a couple of small prints using a 
new Lyson paper called Lyson Fine Art Photo Plus. It's a dual sided 316 gsm, with a fairly smooth surface. 
Probably a Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Duo. This is not cheap paper but for any prints that I'm selling, this is one 
heck of a great paper. With the SM Gamuts and this paper I've made some handsome looking prints but I will be 
keeping a close eye after hearing of your experiences with fading. 

Greg Edwards