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Fade test -- Eboni v. 1.1 & blue toner

Fade test -- Eboni v. 1.1 & blue toner

2015-04-22 by roark.paul@...

I have posted a "first look" at a fade test that just completed its first 8-week run. A PDF discussing the test is at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Fade-Test-8-week.pdf . A scan of the tested and control (dark storage) print samples is at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/8Wk-fade-4-20-2015-100ppi-8bit.jpg .


My initial and basic conclusions at this point are that the new Eboni v. 1.1 is as solid a carbon ink as the old Eboni. The blue toner I mix using Epson Cyan and Canon Blue performed essentially as expected. So, I intend to continue to develop primarily carbon inksets along the lines of the 1400/1430 http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-Variable-Tone.pdf and 7800 http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/7800-Carbon-Variable-Tone-2015.pdf . The 3880 is the next in line for a variant of this inkset approach.


The print samples will start their second 8-week session in the near future.


All feedback welcomed.


As flawed as the fade test may be, it's at least a data point where I had no other.


Paul

http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Fade test -- Eboni v. 1.1 & blue toner

2015-04-24 by paulmwhiting@...

Hello Paul,

Glad you're still at it! I've studied most of your links, some of it being a bit more advanced than my background allows but still of great interest. Just curious, and by now this is a rather moot question, but would this have worked with the "old" Eboni? In other words, did the "new" Eboni precipitate this new mix? Perhaps you've addressed this, sorry if I missed it.

I've still got some Eboni 1.0 on hand, plus I'm amazed how little Eboni ink the 1400 with Carbon6 uses compared with the 3MK/1800 setup. But inevitably I'll be using Eboni 1.1 at some future point, and I was glad to hear it compares favorably with the earlier version.

Cheers,

Paul

PS Glad to see the Eboni on PA 205 is still a reference worth our attention.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Fade test -- Eboni v. 1.1 & blue toner

2015-04-24 by Paul Roark

Hi Paul W.,

The short answer is that I don't know if Eboni v.1 would react exactly the same as v. 1.1 or not. However, I suspect it would be very similar.

The longer answer: I';m satisfied, after my 8-week test, that the "new" Eboni is a solid carbon pigment, as was the old. While I have been told they are the same, there were clearly some differences. So, I needed to check it out in a fade test.

While most of the differences were positive -- like better dmax and less settling -- the Eboni v. 1.1 is slightly warmer. That was the incentive I needed to take on the problem of making a toned print that would meet the quality standards I wanted.

While I don't want to make over the top, "apples and oranges" comparisons, and it's still early in my testing, I think with the new toner I am testing we might have a neutral inkjet print that can take on the silver print. Your 100% Eboni on Premier Art 205 sample, tested by Mark at http://aardenburg-imaging.com/, proved that for warm prints we can do it. Now I9;m trying to take that success to neutral prints as well.

For better of worse, comparisons to AaI&A tests are going to be inevitable. (I'll try to improve the ability to do that with the next phase of my testing by putting in some ink-paper samples that are exactly the same as what Mark tested.) For now, my best estimate is that the 8-week test is, I hope conservatively, close to AaI&A's 20 MLux-Hours level, though the variables will always be such that it's chancy. At any rate, FWIW, you might be interested in the Eboni Variable Tone neutral print on Premier Art 325 test compared to the selenium toned silver print, screen grabs reproduced here:
Your eyes can be the judge.

The key to the "new" Eboni "Variable Tone" (aka old/original UT1) approach is the single, very dilute blue toner. That allows both different carbons to be use, different toners to be used, and it avoids some of the ink separation issues we experienced with the carbon + color pigment neutralized inksets. I think the carbon + separate toner gives a flexibility in both print tones and ink setups that is missing in the neutralized carbon ink approaches. It won't be quite as "EZ" as the blended, neutral monotone approach, but for many of us, the flexibility is well worth the trade-off.

While I9;m currently focused on the Epson C & Canon Blue toner mix, you can be sure I'll be testing other combinations that look promising, and I';ve encouraged MIS to make a toner from its new color pigments, where they appear to have done a very good job of matching the C and M fade rates to avoid the green shift we experienced with the older third party color pigments.

I have no idea if MIS will commercialize my current approach. I think what is most important to the B&W field is a viable, independent "photographers' darkroom/inkroom" approach that frees us from the control of any one company. We should have competitive component suppliers. The success of the generic dilution base in dealing with pigments from MIS, Epson and Canon in my current approach will hopefully further demonstrate the extent to which we "darkroom/inkroom" practitioners can mix and match our inputs.

I might add that the approaches for the 1400 family (http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-Variable-Tone.pdf) and the 3880 will be Epson driver compatible. While I doubt I or most on this forum think all that highly of the Epson driver, there is a large group of photographers who want that compatibility. The Eboni VT approach will, hopefully soon, allow photographers to knock out 16x20 inch, neutral or warm B&W prints easily with a desktop printer that has a mere 27x15 inch footprint (3800/3880 -- soon to be readily available on the used market as the color folks move to the new Epson P800 due to its better pigs and roll paper adapter), using QTR or simply an ICC with their standard Epson driver workflow, from either Mac or PC platform. While they can currently make reasonably good ABW prints, we'll be able to make better ones far less expensively.

Paul
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On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 4:53 AM, paulmwhiting@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hello Paul,

Glad you're still at it! I've studied most of your links, some of it being a bit more advanced than my background allows but still of great interest. Just curious, and by now this is a rather moot question, but would this have worked with the "old" Eboni? In other words, did the "new" Eboni precipitate this new mix? Perhaps you've addressed this, sorry if I missed it.

I've still got some Eboni 1.0 on hand, plus I'm amazed how little Eboni ink the 1400 with Carbon6 uses compared with the 3MK/1800 setup. But inevitably I'll be using Eboni 1.1 at some future point, and I was glad to hear it compares favorably with the earlier version.

Cheers,

Paul

PS Glad to see the Eboni on PA 205 is still a reference worth our attention.


Re: [Digital BW] Re: Fade test -- Eboni v. 1.1 & blue toner

2015-04-24 by paulmwhiting@...

Excellent reply, Paul, complete and detailed. Although I'd gotten used to the warmish black of diluted Eboni, it brought back fond memories of Agfa MCC 111. But I'd welcome a cooler option, it adds to the repertoire.

Won't the blue lessen the archival qualities of a strictly diluted Eboni approach? Probably not enough to sneeze at. And I'm sure you've considered that issue,

BTW, I'm well stocked on PA 205, in case you need some sheets for apples and apples let me know. Seems to be in short supply, you may be out. So is Mark now accepting new candidates for testing? I know he had to pause there for a while, he was having trouble keeping up.

I"ve reworked my upload to the Files folder, the one on linearizing a QTR curve with a flatbed scanner. For one thing, my title was misleading, I had said something like "Creating a Curve... etc". But it's only for the final step of creating a curve, ie the linearizing. Didn't exactly go viral, did it! Printing with the Epson driver is probably more familiar and I note you are addressing that issue for some users. I'll upload the revised version soon.

"Enjoy the journey", to borrow your phrase,

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Fade test -- Eboni v. 1.1 & blue toner

2015-04-24 by Paul Roark


.

​..​
Although I'd gotten used to the warmish black of diluted Eboni,
​...
I'd welcome a cooler option, it adds to the repertoire.

​I totally agree.

Won't the blue lessen the archival qualities of a strictly diluted Eboni approach?

​Yes, but with a relatively neutral carbon and the best pigments, the amount ought to be small.​ The color pigments only account for about 5% of the density of a neutral print with my approach. Some of the blended "neutral" inks have huge amounts of color pigments in them.

Although I wish there were a perfect single blue pigment that would do the job, such is not available to us. The second best situation is the cyan that is closest to blue (Epson among those I've tested) and a blue pigment instead of magenta. Canon has one that is available in large carts. By keeping the cooling pigments as close to the ideal blue that offsets the carbon yellow, it takes less color in the mix. The less color and higher percentage of carbon, the better in terms of longevity. "Carbon is king" with our current B&W printing technology.

The problem is not only the Lab L fade. The harder issue is the tendency to swing into greenish as the color pigments fade deferentially. The cyan is usually stronger than the magenta that is used to offset the carbon. As best I can tell from the AaI&A tests, the Canon Lucia EX blue is our best bet in terms of finding a pigment that can stand up to the cyan. There is a detectable Lab A reduction in the neutral test strips, but it's very small and expected. It may also be from the individual pigments having a bias to have some Lab A fade. How far it will go remains to be seen. The information I could glean from AaI&A is limited by, among other things, the test patches that were used not being such that the pure cyan and pure blue would be the only inks used. I took my best shot with the current toner, but the general approach is open to changes and improvements. If Mark's tests of the new P600 pigs shows they are a quantum leap (not likely, I think Canon already implemented the next generation coating with the EX version of Lucia), I'll test a version of a toner made from them.

I appreciate the contributions you've made in submitting samples to Mark as well as trying to make scanner based linearization more accessible to people. If people can just linearize a profile -- QTR or ICC -- it opens up a lot of printing flexibility and power to them.

Paul

Re: Fade test -- Eboni v. 1.1 & blue toner

2015-05-09 by paulmwhiting@...

Thanks for that support, Paul,

For those who missed that file I'm posting a revised version. I wanted to re-word some of the explanations to make it clearer. This is a procedure I learned about from a kind member off-group and it enables linearizing a QTR curve. That's the last step in creating a curve and perhaps the most difficult. It does not require a densitometer, only a Kodak gray scale and a flatbed scanner.

I'm going to make it available here via DropBox... if you click on this link you should be able to go directly to the pdf file. It's only three pages. Let me know if there are any points that are not clear and I can revise it.

linearizing QTR curve.pdf


Regards,


Paul

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