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Proofing paper for Eboni 6 on Epson 1400 and Arches Bright White

Re: [Digital BW] Proofing paper for Eboni 6 on Epson 1400 and Arches Bright White

2015-03-17 by Jacques Caron

Hi

I don't know if you can exchange papers making tests; working on a 1430 with Eboni 6, I've found that the best way is to buy the size that you want as output and at the same time, buy the smallest size available for the same paper. Much more economical and, at least, your tests will be on the same paper as the final result.

Good luck

Jacques

Le 2015-03-17 à 13:41, "brubaker_family@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> a écrit :

> 
> Is there an inexpensive proofing paper anyone has found to help get an image set up to print Eboni 6 on Arches Bright White watercolor paper?  The Arches BW is pretty expensive to make mistakes on.
> 
> 
> 
> Mike Brubaker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Jacques Caron
Photographe
jacques.caron@...

RE: [Digital BW] Proofing paper for Eboni 6 on Epson 1400 and Arches Bright White

2015-03-17 by Edward Wiseman

I’d try Red River 60lb polar matte 2-sided..Prints on both sides.. like 100 letter size sheets for about as cheap as it gets..also a very nice matte paper  for around $35… I’m using it with UT-14 inks!

 

Good luck with what you choose!

Eddie
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 1:42 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Proofing paper for Eboni 6 on Epson 1400 and Arches Bright White

 

  

Is there an inexpensive proofing paper anyone has found to help get an image set up to print Eboni 6 on Arches Bright White watercolor paper?  The Arches BW is pretty expensive to make mistakes on.

 

Mike Brubaker

Re: Proofing paper for Eboni 6 on Epson 1400 and Arches Bright White

2015-03-17 by richard@...

I could try to be funny and say, "printing on uncoated arches is an expensive mistake no matter how you do it..."

Are you attempting to create a profile for the uncoated arches by using a different, less expensive uncoated paper? Just using the inexpensive paper to create a profile to use on the arches won't work at all (nor will using an inexpensive coated paper). The way the dots spread on the uncoated surface makes the profiling process different than when using normal coated papers, and the dots spread differently on different uncoated surfaces.

You could perfect the profiling process with some other uncoated paper, and then switch to the arches when you are comfortable with the process, but like I said, you wont know if any problems with the inexpensive paper are problems with the paper or problems with the method.

If you are careful (and if you are using a mac with print tool) you can create a profile with one sheet of 11x15 paper. You can get 4 11x15 sheets from a full 22x30 sheet, so I just use one of those 11x15 sheets to profile, and one 11x15 for the test print, and still have two printable sheets for real prints.

My process goes something like this, First print the ink separation page at 100 (which fits on just over a 1/3 sheet of 11x15 -- or you could just use and ink limit of 25 for shades 2-6 and and ink limit of 75 for shade 1) then print the ink sep page again at your ink limits on the second 1/3 of that sheet to set your cross over points. Then you have the rest of the sheet for printing the 21 step targets (one or two to linearize, and then the 51 step target to make an icc profile and a bullseye gradient to check your work.

Richard Boutwell



Re: Proofing paper for Eboni 6 on Epson 1400 and Arches Bright White

2015-03-17 by brian_downunda@...

The OP said proofing paper, not profiling paper. I assume he wants to perfect an image by printing iterations on a cheaper paper before using an expensive paper to print a final. I can relate to this. I use EEM as a proofing paper at 60 cents an A4 sheet, rather than HPR or CRP at nearly $2 per A4 sheet and $4.50 per 13"x19" sheet ($AUD prices).

However the problem comes when you switch from the proofing paper to the final paper. It's going to be hard to find a paper that's a close match. Even if you do, you need to have a very good handle on soft-proofing both papers in order to make the switch fairly seamlessly. I'm using Piezography rather than Ebony, and if you have piezo curves that are exactly linear for both papers then you'd go close, although even then you'd get differences. For example, HPR has a higher dmax and so you'd typically get blacker blacks. So having accurate soft-proofs and a screen that can simulate the printing environment (e.g. Eizo CG) and being able to reliably interpret the soft-proof is essential IMHO.

If you use your ICC profiles for conversion rather than soft-proofing and printing in GG2.2 then it becomes easier, but the problem then is dealing with the shadow compression that converting to the ICC causes.

Re: Proofing paper for Eboni 6 on Epson 1400 and Arches Bright White

2015-03-18 by richard@...

The final "perfected" print on one paper might need subtly different final edits to make them work on another paper, especially if it is an uncoated paper or something like kozo—which can vary quite a lot too. I was going through some old boxes of negatives and other stuff that had been in storage and found a hand made book mock-up I made on some cheap Staples double sided matte paper in 2007. The prints still look good considering how it was printed, but I remember they needed a lot of extra work that a print on good paper might not have. I don't even bother with a different "proofing" paper anymore because it becomes just another piece to clutter up my work area until it gets throw away, where a "work" print on good paper can be saved and used for other purposes.

Aside from making jokes about how uncoated papers print, things like shadow detail and midtone separation is where it will mush up compared to coated papers. That can be compensated for by handling the final file differently for printing on it, but, if you proof on coated paper, expect to make additional edits for printing on the uncoated paper.

There was so much talk about printing on uncoated arches that I thought it was worth exploring, but I didn't find it worth investing in heavily—it might lend itself well to certain kinds of subjects, but not my own work. The overall point is, you won't know until you try it and them compare it to other prints, and you can't do that by first printing on proofing paper.

Richard Boutwell

Re: Proofing paper for Eboni 6 on Epson 1400 and Arches Bright White

2015-03-18 by brian_downunda@...

Agreed. Even on similar papers expect differences. Perhaps less so if your piezo curves are both dead linear, or if you're converting to ICC profiles. I wouldn't use an coated proofing paper to proof for an uncoated final paper.

---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <richard@...> wrote :

The final "perfected" print on one paper might need subtly different final edits to make them work on another paper, especially if it is an uncoated paper ...<snip>... things like shadow detail and midtone separation is where it will mush up compared to coated papers. That can be compensated for by handling the final file differently for printing on it, but, if you proof on coated paper, expect to make additional edits for printing on the uncoated paper.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Proofing paper for Eboni 6 on Epson 1400 and Arches Bright White

2015-03-19 by Brubaker family

Thanks to all for their responses.

Brian is right about what I want to do with "proofing."

Since the 1400 is a 13 X 19 printer, I can get two 13 X 19 (starts out at 13 X 22 but I will then trim to 13 X 19) sheets  and three 4 X 6 and one 4 X 4 out of a 22 X 30 sheet of Arches BW.  I can use the 4 X 6s for post cards or proofing and the 4 X 4 for proofing.  For proofing I can use both sides.

That may be enough, but I was seeking an alternative in case I needed one.

Mike Brubaker

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 3/17/15, brian_downunda@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Proofing paper for Eboni 6 on Epson 1400 and Arches Bright White
 To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2015, 7:42 PM
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
     
       
       
       The OP said proofing paper, not profiling paper. 
 I assume he wants to perfect an image by printing iterations
 on a cheaper paper before using an expensive paper to print
 a final.  I can relate to this.  I use EEM as a proofing
 paper at 60 cents an A4 sheet, rather than HPR or CRP at
 nearly $2 per A4 sheet and $4.50 per 13"x19" sheet
 ($AUD prices).
 
 However the
 problem comes when you switch from the proofing paper to the
 final paper.  It's going to be hard to find a paper
 that's a close match.  Even if you do, you need to have
 a very good handle on soft-proofing both papers in order to
 make the switch fairly seamlessly.  I'm using
 Piezography rather than Ebony, and if you have piezo curves
 that are exactly linear for both papers then you'd go
 close, although even then you'd get differences.  For
 example, HPR has a higher dmax and so you'd typically
 get blacker blacks.  So having accurate soft-proofs and a
 screen that can simulate the printing environment (e.g. Eizo
 CG) and being able to reliably interpret the soft-proof is
 essential IMHO.
 
 If you use
 your ICC profiles for conversion rather than soft-proofing
 and printing in GG2.2 then it becomes easier, but the
 problem then is dealing with the shadow compression that
 converting to the ICC causes.
 
     
      
 
     
     
 
 
 
 #yiv1176463202 #yiv1176463202 --

Re: Proofing paper for Eboni 6 on Epson 1400 and Arches Bright White

2015-03-19 by brian_downunda@...

Do you have the capacity to create ICC profiles for soft-proofing? This would require an i1 Photo or Colour Munki or similar. If you do then you can try a few things to see if you can soft-proof on other papers sufficiently well. If you don't then it's going to be hard. Perhaps someone here can recommend a cheaper uncoated paper. Not my area of interest TBH.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Proofing paper for Eboni 6 on Epson 1400 and Arches Bright White

2015-03-19 by Mike Johnston

Chart Throb works well too.

 

Mike J.

 

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 4:34 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Proofing paper for Eboni 6 on Epson 1400 and Arches Bright White

 

  

Do you have the capacity to create ICC profiles for soft-proofing?  This would require an i1 Photo or Colour Munki or similar.  If you do then you can try a few things to see if you can soft-proof on other papers sufficiently well.  If you don't then it's going to be hard.  Perhaps someone here can recommend a cheaper uncoated paper.  Not my area of interest TBH.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Proofing paper for Eboni 6 on Epson 1400 and Arches Bright White

2015-03-20 by Brubaker family

I do have a Datacolor Print Fix Pro and the software, so I can create ICC profiles.

Mike Brubaker

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 3/19/15, brian_downunda@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Proofing paper for Eboni 6 on Epson 1400 and Arches Bright White
 To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Thursday, March 19, 2015, 6:33 PM
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
     
       
       
       Do you have the capacity to create ICC profiles for
 soft-proofing?  This would require an i1 Photo or Colour
 Munki or similar.  If you do then you can try a few things
 to see if you can soft-proof on other papers sufficiently
 well.  If you don't then it's going to be hard. 
 Perhaps someone here can recommend a cheaper uncoated
 paper.  Not my area of interest TBH.
 
     
      
 
     
     
 
 
 
 #yiv0631557957 #yiv0631557957 --

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