Digital BW, The Print

Paul,
I recently picked up an Epson R260 at a thrift store, got it cleaned out and want to try your 2K2-LK in it.
I am not ready to commit to $187.00 for a Noritsu cart yet. I would like to use a cheaper ink for experimentation, practice, playing around etc 8~).
The $64.00 question is:
Is your clear base for the Noritsu ink compatible with the MIS Claria replacement ink?
Thanks,
Cliff

I don't know if the generic dye base I made for the Nortisu/Claria dyes is
compatible with MIS's dyes or not.  They may have tried it; I have not.  I
would think MIS (Inksupply.com) might be able to come up with a pre-mixed
LK for their dyes.  For those who want to have fun for less than the
Noritsu or Claria prices, that might be a nice product.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 11:43 AM, f_56_f <f_5.6@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Paul,
> I recently picked up an Epson R260 at a thrift store, got it cleaned out
> and want to try your 2K2-LK in it.
> I am not ready to commit to $187.00 for a Noritsu cart yet. I would like
> to use a cheaper ink for experimentation, practice, playing around etc 8~).
> The $64.00 question is:
> Is your clear base for the Noritsu ink compatible with the MIS Claria
> replacement ink?
> Thanks,
> Cliff
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> I don't know if the generic dye base I made for the Nortisu/Claria dyes is
> compatible with MIS's dyes or not.  They may have tried it; I have not.  I
> would think MIS (Inksupply.com) might be able to come up with a pre-mixed
> LK for their dyes.  For those who want to have fun for less than the
> Noritsu or Claria prices, that might be a nice product.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 11:43 AM, f_56_f <f_5.6@...> wrote:
> 
> > **
Thanks Paul, I'll drop MIS an email and see what light they can shed.
Cliff

> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Clif:

Last year I set up Paul's 2K-2LK ink using MIS D2 ink(standard cheap dye ink) and printed with it on Red River Metallic paper. The images were stunning initially. However, after about three months they started to develop some pinkness to deep black areas. By six months they were totally screwed up with strange red coloration in many places. 

Obviously, you couldn't make gallery images using this combination, but for trying it out 'on the cheap', I think it is worthwhile. It is really cheap; the D2 and dye base cost less than $20 from www.inksupply.com. You'll pay more just for the empty cartridges. If you really like it, you can go all out for the Noritsu ink and refill your cartridges with the good stuff. 

Homer Shannon



 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "f_56_f" <f_5.6@...> wrote:

>
> Paul,
> I recently picked up an Epson R260 at a thrift store, got it cleaned out and want to try your 2K2-LK in it.
> I am not ready to commit to $187.00 for a Noritsu cart yet. I would like to use a cheaper ink for experimentation, practice, playing around etc 8~).
> The $64.00 question is:
> Is your clear base for the Noritsu ink compatible with the MIS Claria replacement ink?
> Thanks,
> Cliff
>

My information is that MIS is working on a new dye set that might give us a
good, less expensive route to B&W dye prints.  The current one (D2)
exhibits the typical problems that we ran into with the old style dyes and
B&W.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 6:17 AM, remononaz1 <homershannon@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Clif:
>
> Last year I set up Paul's 2K-2LK ink using MIS D2 ink(standard cheap dye
> ink) and printed with it on Red River Metallic paper. The images were
> stunning initially. However, after about three months they started to
> develop some pinkness to deep black areas. By six months they were totally
> screwed up with strange red coloration in many places.
>
> Obviously, you couldn't make gallery images using this combination, but
> for trying it out 'on the cheap', I think it is worthwhile. It is really
> cheap; the D2 and dye base cost less than $20 from www.inksupply.com.
> You'll pay more just for the empty cartridges. If you really like it, you
> can go all out for the Noritsu ink and refill your cartridges with the good
> stuff.
>
> Homer Shannon
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "f_56_f" <f_5.6@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Paul,
> > I recently picked up an Epson R260 at a thrift store, got it cleaned out
> and want to try your 2K2-LK in it.
> > I am not ready to commit to $187.00 for a Noritsu cart yet. I would like
> to use a cheaper ink for experimentation, practice, playing around etc 8~).
> > The $64.00 question is:
> > Is your clear base for the Noritsu ink compatible with the MIS Claria
> replacement ink?
> > Thanks,
> > Cliff
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Homer,
That's the info I was looking for. I have also sent an email to MIS, waiting for a reply.
I'm new to the digital B&W world and have a long climb up the learning curve,GIMP, QTR, workflows etc. I know I will be creating a lot of waste paper in the process and the MIS ink and COSTCO paper should allow the lowest cost.
By the time I'm up to speed maybe MIS or InkJetMall will have their new dye inks available and there is always the Noritsu ink.
Of coarse once I have a good handle on the process I will also want to try Ebony6.
I think I'll just go ahead and place an order with MIS and get started.

Paul,
Thanks for the heads up on the new MIS dye ink. I hope they won't announce it until it's ready unlike InkThrift which has been "comming soon" for a year now.

Again,
Thanks to all
Cliff

Cliff:

There are three ways you can go with the 1400/1430 printer:

2K2LK with metallic or gloss paper, subject to the noted 'fade' issue. This is inexpensive with MIS inks, more costly if you purchase Epson or Noritsu black dye ink. 

Carbon 6 with matte papers. This is inexpensive and stable, but you cannot print glossy prints. 

UT-14 with any paper without fade issues. This is bit more expensive, about $130 for the UT-14 set, but it provides lots of latitude. It works very well on any matte paper. I have curves that will allow you to use it on glossy and satin paper in both warm and neutral tones. So far I've not seen any fade or tone change issues and I have images over two years old. (I even left some in a window and they are OK, too.)

I've posted some notes and links to the color curves necessary to print on gloss paper at remononaz.blogspot.com. 

Homer Shannon

remononaz1 <homershannon@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cliff:
>
> There are three ways you can go with the 1400/1430 printer:
>
> 2K2LK with metallic or gloss paper,  ... Carbon 6 with matte papers. This
> is inexpensive and stable, but you cannot print glossy prints.
>
> UT-14 ...
>

I would discourage the 2K2LK approach with cheap dyes.  First, the old
style dyes are what drove many of us crazy at the very beginning of the
inkjet era of printing.  The color shifting from dry down and different
lighting is rather extreme.  It was an exercise in frustration.

Second, the 2K2LK profiling is not standard QTR.  QTR's usual approaches
require that each ink in a partition be a different density.  If you are
just starting/learning digital printing, a simpler, more standard inkset
arrangement maybe preferable.

A monotone like Eboni/Carbon-6 is the easiest to profile.  This particular
inkset is compatible with the Epson driver as well as QTR.  So in terms of
learning the alternatives, it's hard to beat -- as long as matte paper is
your target.  The MIS prices for Eboni-6 are quite good as is, and you can
always move to mixing your own version ("Carbon-6" to avoid using MIS's TM)
to save even more if your situation calls for that.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I got a reply back from MIS. Mathew at MIS says that the ink and base will mix OK but also confirms what both Homer and Paul say about color shift and does not recommend using it.

Homer,thanks for the recommendations.I like semi gloss prints and would still like to use the R260 printer (same inks as 1400 but different carts). Will the UT-14 ink set work with it and QTR? or is it just for the 1400?

Paul, thanks for the heads up on 2K-2LK not being for beginners.
I read your PDF on mixing the Carbon-6. Are the percentages based on weight or volume? I still have my Ohaus beam balance from my darkroom days so mixing by weight might be more accurate for me.
Cost isn't a big issue at present but I will be retiring in a few months and expenses could become an issue in the future. Just need to keep all my options open.

Thanks to both of you for steering me in the right direction.

Cliff

Cliff  <f_5.6@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> ... I like semi gloss prints and would still like to use the R260 printer
> (same inks as 1400 but different carts).
>
Will the UT-14 ink set work with it and QTR? or is it just for the 1400?
>

If you know how to profile, it'll work.  The problem is that you will not
have pre-made profiles.  I mostly made ICCs for the UT14 and assumed users
would make the QTR profiles.  The ICCs often have Photoshop curves embedded
in them.  Those curves should be posted, but you'll have to make the ICCs,
using QTR's Create ICC-RGB.


>
> Paul, ... I read your PDF on mixing the Carbon-6.  Are the percentages
> based on weight or volume?
>
Weight, but you can assume all is close enough to specific gravity of 1
except glycerol, which is at 1.26.  So, if using volume just put in 80% of
the called for glycerol amount.  If you use the MIS pre-mixed base, of
course, there is no issue.  Volume and weight are essentially proportional.


> I still have my Ohaus beam balance from my darkroom days so mixing by
> weight might be more accurate for me.
>
Yes.  You can drive yourself crazy doing things to 3 place accuracy.  What
saves us is that the Epson piezo heads are rather forgiving.


> Cost isn't a big issue at present but ...
>

Those of us who are old darkroom mixers may simply find it more satisfying
to be more in control of our medium than the more commercial approaches.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> 
> If you know how to profile, it'll work.

One of the things I will have to learn. 8~)  

>The ICCs often have Photoshop curves embedded
> in them.

I have Photoshop Elements 6 and plan to download GIMP.

>.... you'll have to make the ICCs,
> using QTR's Create ICC-RGB.

More learning.
 

> Yes.  You can drive yourself crazy doing things to 3 place >accuracy. 

Guilty.

> Those of us who are old darkroom mixers may simply find it more >satisfying
> to be more in control of our medium than the more commercial >approaches.

Also guilty.

Back to studying more of your PDFs,
Cliff

Cliff:

This link will take you to a dilution table I developed for the Carbon-6 ink. http://sdrv.ms/UZje9D Basically, you keep cutting down the dilution and you don't have to worry about trying to measure impossibly small amounts of ink for the high dilutions (presumably you don't own fancy chemical measuring equipment; I use a 100mm syringe and a glass bowel.)

Also, on the How-To and Tools page of my blog, remononaz.blogspot.com , I have information and links for the UT-14 on glossy paper using color curves. When using the curves, you print using the printer settings, gamma 2.2, so there is no .icc involved. Applying the color curve is just a slight bit tricky, but easy once you understand it, or if you have good Photoshop experience anyway. 

The tonal quality of UT-14 on Red River Ultrapro Satin, with the warm or neutral curves, has to be seen to be believed. It is by far the best result I've gotten out of three sets of black and white inks and numerous papers. 

Homer

Thanks for the links.
After doing a search here on "r260" and reading most of the posts, I have decided to take the recommendation of those who are more experienced than I and use the MIS UT-RC ink set to start with. Since I prefer gloss and semi-gloss I will get one with the PK black ink. Now to make up my mind on warm or neutral.
Thanks to all of you for your advise.

Cliff