Digital BW, The Print

Hi CD,
Respectfully ... I think you didn't do or accomplish what you've stated in your first line of your post.. Specifically "show" the color capabilities of the Canon 5d Marklll and the Nikon D800. All the images have been massaged.. which is ok to a degree...but their all clipped as they are displayed in the sRGB space.. so it's impossible for a viewer to see what either camera actually delivered. It is also impossible for the viewer to really see the actual image progress thru the steps..

Constructively.. the as shot raw images or a tiff variant from each should have been available for download.. as a true base for the viewer and each incremental step also.. The sRGB images are ok as posted but not having credible images to back them up I think is missing.. 

The premise of the article is that by calibrating two dissimilar camera's or but a single camera one can obtain results that are closer to being the same or correct to a known target.. That is a benefit typically achieved from any calibration process. But I think we never really got to see the color capabilities of either camera...... only how Datacolors tool set adjusted each cameras color towards a common target but we really didn't get to see that either. Anyway I think to make this work several download links need to be available.. Then it would be credible..

As a last note this was not intended as a slam dunk...just a it's missing...ok? .. 


jimbo

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: C D Tobie 
  To: EPSON_Printers@yahoogroups.com ; EpsonWideFormat@yahoogroups.com ; digital-photography@yahoogroups.com ; DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com ; Digital_Photography_Forum@yahoogroups.com ; digital-fineart@yahoogroups.com ; Photo Critiques Group Members ; Photo_Chat 
  Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 1:52 PM
  Subject: [EpsonWideFormat] Article on Canon 5D Mark lll and Nikon D800 color


    
  If you are interested in seeing the color capabilities of the Canon 5D Mark lll and Nikon D800 compared, I've finally gotten a chance to make that comparison, and write it up.

  http://cdtobie.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/color-comparison-canon-5d-mark-lll-and-nikon-d800/

  C. David Tobie
  Global Product Technology Manager

  Datacolor
  5 Princess Road
  Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
  609.924.2189
  www.datacolor.com

  Phone: 207.685.9248
  Mobile: 207.312.0448
  Fax: 207.685.4455
  Email: cdtobie@...
  Skype: cdtobie

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  
  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5227 - Release Date: 08/27/12


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Jimbo,

>>Constructively.. the as shot raw images or a tiff variant from each should have been available for download.

Do you realize how large a D800 raw file is? I don't have the bandwidth to offer such samples to thousands of viewers. I made sure the sample images I selected showed clear color variations on an sRGB display before using them. The visual comparisons are valid. Thats about all I can offer in a blog article. Perfection will have to occur somewhere else. Thanks for taking a look.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Imaging Color Solutions
Datacolor inc. 
cdtobie@...
www.datacolor.com

On Aug 27, 2012, at 10:19 PM, "jimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:

> Constructively.. the as shot raw images or a tiff variant from each should have been available for download.

Hi CD... Sadly yes I do .. I just imported (2) 16GB cards from a 3 day shoot ....only 800 images.. again constructively .. I know how hard you work at this.. It's more about evidence and proof to help bring credibility to support all your efforts, ok.?. Our camera's go well beyond sRGB ... Possibly.. a solution might look like taking the raw image and convert it to a tiff then down sample it to something more manageable for your band width and tag it Prophoto or even adobe98 ... That should not affect  the colors.. I understand the complexity of it all ..I just feel, particularly in this case,  I could get something more meaningful out of it with the added material.. 
Anyway nuf said.. I meant it constructively.. and I always enjoy seeing the things you toss out there for us.. Thanks...


jimbo

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: CDTobie 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 9:10 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: [EpsonWideFormat] Article on Canon 5D Mark lll and Nikon D800 color


    
  Hi Jimbo,

  >>Constructively.. the as shot raw images or a tiff variant from each should have been available for download.

  Do you realize how large a D800 raw file is? I don't have the bandwidth to offer such samples to thousands of viewers. I made sure the sample images I selected showed clear color variations on an sRGB display before using them. The visual comparisons are valid. Thats about all I can offer in a blog article. Perfection will have to occur somewhere else. Thanks for taking a look.

  C. David Tobie
  Global Product Technology Manager
  Imaging Color Solutions
  Datacolor inc. 
  cdtobie@...
  www.datacolor.com

  On Aug 27, 2012, at 10:19 PM, "jimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:

  > Constructively.. the as shot raw images or a tiff variant from each should have been available for download.


  
  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5227 - Release Date: 08/27/12


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Camera color capabilities are a slippery area; capture devices don't have a gamut, per se, only a response range. So my goal here is not to map the gamut of these devices (a non-sensical task), but rather to show their response on practical colors. Both the red shirt and the cyan sky are within sRGB. If the classic "flavors" of Canon and Nikon cameras can be shown with these "web friendly" colors, then chasing fluorescent greens isn't really needed to make my case. 

AdobeRGB does nothing to change this, as it shares both the red and the blue primaries of sRGB; and ProPhoto is not going to fly with eight-bit-per-channel samples, as it is so big posterization occurs. So the solution I chose was in-gamut color samples that retained the same visible effect in sRGB that they showed in Lightroom's linear ProPhoto space with both a wide gamut display, and a standard gamut display. I can live with those examples. Clearly you are looking for something else, but my goals of comparison and correction are met nicely by the examples in the article. 

When all is said and done, the points I hope people will remember is that Canon and Nikon color aren't really from different planets, and that a bit of capture calibration can match them nicely.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Imaging Color Solutions
Datacolor inc. 
cdtobie@datacolor.com
www.datacolor.com

On Aug 28, 2012, at 12:50 AM, "jimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:

> Hi CD... Sadly yes I do .. I just imported (2) 16GB cards from a 3 day shoot ....only 800 images.. again constructively .. I know how hard you work at this.. It's more about evidence and proof to help bring credibility to support all your efforts, ok.?. Our camera's go well beyond sRGB ... Possibly.. a solution might look like taking the raw image and convert it to a tiff then down sample it to something more manageable for your band width and tag it Prophoto or even adobe98 ... That should not affect the colors.. I understand the complexity of it all ..I just feel, particularly in this case, I could get something more meaningful out of it with the added material.. 
> Anyway nuf said.. I meant it constructively.. and I always enjoy seeing the things you toss out there for us.. Thanks...
> 
> jimbo
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: CDTobie 
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 9:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: [EpsonWideFormat] Article on Canon 5D Mark lll and Nikon D800 color
> 
> Hi Jimbo,
> 
> >>Constructively.. the as shot raw images or a tiff variant from each should have been available for download.
> 
> Do you realize how large a D800 raw file is? I don't have the bandwidth to offer such samples to thousands of viewers. I made sure the sample images I selected showed clear color variations on an sRGB display before using them. The visual comparisons are valid. Thats about all I can offer in a blog article. Perfection will have to occur somewhere else. Thanks for taking a look.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Imaging Color Solutions
> Datacolor inc. 
> cdtobie@...
> www.datacolor.com
> 
> On Aug 27, 2012, at 10:19 PM, "jimbo" <mrjimbo@wispwest.net> wrote:
> 
> > Constructively.. the as shot raw images or a tiff variant from each should have been available for download.
> 
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5227 - Release Date: 08/27/12
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Aug 28, 2012, at 12:50 AM, jimbo <mrjimbo@...> wrote:

> Hi CD... Sadly yes I do .. I just imported (2) 16GB cards from a 3 day shoot ....only 800 images.. 

I've invested in 32 and 64GB cards� just couldn't get though a shoot without stopping to swap with my previous 16s. It all adds up...

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager

Datacolor
5 Princess Road
Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
609.924.2189
www.datacolor.com

Phone: 207.685.9248
Mobile: 207.312.0448
Fax: 207.685.4455
Email:  cdtobie@datacolor.com
Skype: cdtobie



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have been using a D800 now for around 4 months and have to say there is a great improvement in color fidelity and dynamic range compare to my D700 and D3 and is now my workhorse for product work. The most striking thing for me when creating a camera profile for the D800 is the appearance when applied is subtle compared to the change when applying a custom profiles to files from the D3 and D700. 

 

Wonder what improvements the next generation of Canon’s and Nikon’s will bring?

 

Mike

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of CDTobie
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 5:30 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: [EpsonWideFormat] Article on Canon 5D Mark lll and Nikon D800 color

 

  

Camera color capabilities are a slippery area; capture devices don't have a gamut, per se, only a response range. So my goal here is not to map the gamut of these devices (a non-sensical task), but rather to show their response on practical colors. Both the red shirt and the cyan sky are within sRGB. If the classic "flavors" of Canon and Nikon cameras can be shown with these "web friendly" colors, then chasing fluorescent greens isn't really needed to make my case. 

AdobeRGB does nothing to change this, as it shares both the red and the blue primaries of sRGB; and ProPhoto is not going to fly with eight-bit-per-channel samples, as it is so big posterization occurs. So the solution I chose was in-gamut color samples that retained the same visible effect in sRGB that they showed in Lightroom's linear ProPhoto space with both a wide gamut display, and a standard gamut display. I can live with those examples. Clearly you are looking for something else, but my goals of comparison and correction are met nicely by the examples in the article. 

When all is said and done, the points I hope people will remember is that Canon and Nikon color aren't really from different planets, and that a bit of capture calibration can match them nicely.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Imaging Color Solutions
Datacolor inc. 
cdtobie@... <mailto:cdtobie%40datacolor.com> 
www.datacolor.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Aug 28, 2012, at 10:44 AM, "Mike Kirwan" <mkirwan@...> wrote:

> I have been using a D800 now for around 4 months and have to say there is a great improvement in color fidelity and dynamic range compare to my D700 and D3 and is now my workhorse for product work. The most striking thing for me when creating a camera profile for the D800 is the appearance when applied is subtle compared to the change when applying a custom profiles to files from the D3 and D700. 

Yes, in my experience the Canon 5D and 5D Mark ll already offered excellent color; while the quality of the D800 color is more novel in the Nikon line, which agrees with what you are saying here. The compatibility across brands is a god-send for many larger projects, where multiple photographers provide their own gear.
> 
> Wonder what improvements the next generation of Canon’s and Nikon’s will bring?

Easier to predict for Canon: Higher megapixel count. For Nikon? A few improvements to the video functions, faster, better autofocus? 

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager

Datacolor
5 Princess Road
Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
609.924.2189
www.datacolor.com

Phone: 207.685.9248
Mobile: 207.312.0448
Fax: 207.685.4455
Email:  cdtobie@...
Skype: cdtobie



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your right ..that's almost a necessity with these guys.. Do you shoot an 800 
yourself or was that just a test..I think your a Canon guy.. Anyway I added 
2700ma rechargables to the battery tray and that really has made a differnce 
to the frame rate ..

jimbo
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "C D Tobie" <CDTobie@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] [EpsonWideFormat] Article on Canon 5D Mark lll and 
Nikon D800 color

>
> On Aug 28, 2012, at 12:50 AM, jimbo <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
>
>> Hi CD... Sadly yes I do .. I just imported (2) 16GB cards from a 3 day 
>> shoot ....only 800 images..
>
> I've invested in 32 and 64GB cards. just couldn't get though a shoot 
> without stopping to swap with my previous 16s. It all adds up...
>
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
>
> Datacolor
> 5 Princess Road
> Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
> 609.924.2189
> www.datacolor.com
>
> Phone: 207.685.9248
> Mobile: 207.312.0448
> Fax: 207.685.4455
> Email:  cdtobie@...
> Skype: cdtobie
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5230 - Release Date: 08/28/12
>

While I still like and use my D700's the difference in image quality, color fidelity and noise at higher iso's is profound between the 700 & 800 in my opinion.. I was greatly suprised at the reduction in noise.. I have three profiles I'm using in the studio, depending on how I light, The fidelity & colors are just stunning.. I quite pleased with it.. 

jimbo

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mike Kirwan 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 8:44 AM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: [EpsonWideFormat] Article on Canon 5D Mark lll and Nikon D800 color


    
  I have been using a D800 now for around 4 months and have to say there is a great improvement in color fidelity and dynamic range compare to my D700 and D3 and is now my workhorse for product work. The most striking thing for me when creating a camera profile for the D800 is the appearance when applied is subtle compared to the change when applying a custom profiles to files from the D3 and D700. 

  Wonder what improvements the next generation of Canon’s and Nikon’s will bring?

  Mike

  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of CDTobie
  Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 5:30 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: [EpsonWideFormat] Article on Canon 5D Mark lll and Nikon D800 color

  Camera color capabilities are a slippery area; capture devices don't have a gamut, per se, only a response range. So my goal here is not to map the gamut of these devices (a non-sensical task), but rather to show their response on practical colors. Both the red shirt and the cyan sky are within sRGB. If the classic "flavors" of Canon and Nikon cameras can be shown with these "web friendly" colors, then chasing fluorescent greens isn't really needed to make my case. 

  AdobeRGB does nothing to change this, as it shares both the red and the blue primaries of sRGB; and ProPhoto is not going to fly with eight-bit-per-channel samples, as it is so big posterization occurs. So the solution I chose was in-gamut color samples that retained the same visible effect in sRGB that they showed in Lightroom's linear ProPhoto space with both a wide gamut display, and a standard gamut display. I can live with those examples. Clearly you are looking for something else, but my goals of comparison and correction are met nicely by the examples in the article. 

  When all is said and done, the points I hope people will remember is that Canon and Nikon color aren't really from different planets, and that a bit of capture calibration can match them nicely.

  C. David Tobie
  Global Product Technology Manager
  Imaging Color Solutions
  Datacolor inc. 
  cdtobie@... <mailto:cdtobie%40datacolor.com> 
  www.datacolor.com

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  
  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5230 - Release Date: 08/28/12


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Aug 28, 2012, at 12:54 PM, "jimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:

> While I still like and use my D700's the difference in image quality, color fidelity and noise at higher iso's is profound between the 700 & 800 in my opinion.. I was greatly suprised at the reduction in noise.. I have three profiles I'm using in the studio, depending on how I light, The fidelity & colors are just stunning.. I quite pleased with it.. 

Yes, it was the low noise that amazed me; I assumed that Canon would have the superior low noise capabilities, by not reducing the size of the individual sensors or increasing the resolution, while Nikon would pick up resolution, at the cost of not really reducing noise. The D800 appears to have its cake, and eat it too, with the increased resolution, and similar reductions in noise and increases in low light capabilities to the 5D Mark lll. The improvements in color are a welcome addition too.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager

Datacolor
5 Princess Road
Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
609.924.2189
www.datacolor.com

Phone: 207.685.9248
Mobile: 207.312.0448
Fax: 207.685.4455
Email:  cdtobie@...
Skype: cdtobie



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul, if I understand you well, 6K+ is your preferred choice at the time 
being for glossy?

I still have a totally unused 2100/2200 which I would like to put into 
work. The 1400 came too fast after I got it, so I now have a 1400 for 
matte B&W (Ebony 6) and another one for color (OEM Claria). I want to 
set up a third printer for glossy B&W, to be used mainly on the 
beautiful baryta papers we now have.

Would the 2100/2200 be appropriate for this task? Could I use the 6K+ 
formula as a 5K+, removing MK since it would only be for glossy papers? 
(Or should the 1400 be used for glossy and the 2100/2200 for matte?)
Has anybody else been doing this?

Many thanks for any tips!

Louis

Louis de Stoutz <loudest@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Paul, if I understand you well, 6K+ is your preferred choice at the time
> being for glossy?
>

For pigments and at least arguably "fine art" quality, yes.

(I still really like the Claria (or Noritsu) dyes the best and use them not
only for cards but for killer 13" x whatever panoramics on Red River
metallic paper, dry mounted to Foam-core and displayed without glazing.  I
just use an OEM color setup on my 1400 with QTR and a half-black-only
profile to minimize the color problems.  I use the same setup for color --
including to make the 13" pans, like of St. Chapelle (scroll down in
http://www.paulroark.com/Paris-Boston.html ), but this is not up to "fine
art" standards.)


> I still have a totally unused 2100/2200 which I would like to put into
> work. The 1400 came too fast after I got it, so I now have a 1400 for
> matte B&W (Ebony 6) and another one for color (OEM Claria).
>

> I want to set up a third printer for glossy B&W, to be used mainly on
the beautiful baryta papers we now have.

>
> Would the 2100/2200 be appropriate for this task? Could I use the 6K+
> formula as a 5K+, removing MK since it would only be for glossy papers?
>

Yes, it ought to work fine.


(Or should the 1400 be used for glossy and the 2100/2200 for matte?)
>
I at one time had a 2200 printing with Carbon-6.  The larger drops of the
2200 v. the 1400 make for slightly more neutral prints Eboni/Carbon-6.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> **
>
> http://www.paulroark.com/Paris-Boston.html )
>

For some reason I missed seeing these before.  I enjoyed them very much!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, Paul. By the way, your pictures are beautiful. You sure master 
the stitching and multi-focus techniques, I would love to see your 
prints one day (any exhibition plans in Europe?).

> I at one time had a 2200 printing with Carbon-6.  The larger drops of the
> 2200 v. the 1400 make for slightly more neutral prints Eboni/Carbon-6.

Is the drop size difference such that you can see it in terms of 
resolution? What are other (dis)advantages of big vs small drops?

Louis

Louis de Stoutz <loudest@...> wrote:
...
>> I at one time had a 2200 printing with Carbon-6.  The larger drops of the
>> 2200 v. the 1400 make for slightly more neutral prints Eboni/Carbon-6.
>
> Is the drop size difference such that you can see it in terms of
> resolution? What are other (dis)advantages of big vs small drops?

The larger drops of the 2200/2100 require that you run an ink lighter
than LK, but you'd do that with an Eboni/Carbon-6 setup.  I like the
1.5 pl drops of the 1400 mostly for the ability to run 100% MK (or any
K) all the way into the highlights if needed.  I don't think a 1400
Black Only is smooth enough for many if not most uses, but is it a
more realistic option than with a 3.5 - 4 pl printer.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com