Digital BW, The Print

I'm about to go crazy here today...

After testing a whole bunch of different glossy/baryta papers during the last week here it turns out that all of them suffer from pizza wheel marks using Epson 1400 with MIS UT-14.

Ilford; GFS, Smooth Pearl
Epson Traditional Photo Paper (Exhibition F)
Canson; Photo Gloss, Photo Satin, Baryta
HP Advanced

Of course no problems with the matte paper, but all the above papers get the pizza wheel lines in different severeness grades.

I have started to experiment with removing some of the wheels, especially the singles, but in the end I still get marks no matter what I do.


Paul, if you read this, could this be resolved by proper profiling of papers making sure the amount of pigments sprayed on the papers are kept to a minimum, or is this just something I dream about and hope to be a proper solution?

What else can be done, anything at all? Or am I doomed to go to the bank and get a loan for another printer? In that case, which ones should I start to look out for?


As most of you who have or have had this problem already noticed, it takes a certain angle, light, and in some cases a magnifying glass to see the lines, but I'm the anal kind, and I will not sleep well until I know I can produce perfect prints... ;(


All ideas that have lead to resolutions are appreciated!


Thanks!


Cheers
J.F. Felinik

I don't have a good answer for you on how to get rid of pizza wheel marks.  Using the least amount of ink and glop in a profile no doubt helps.  I think the 1400 needs its exit rollers for good paper transport.

Yesterday I was printing glossy prints with the 1400-Claria/Noritsu dyes and the 4000 with MIS pigments.  I was using Red River Polar Pearl Metallic as well as Arctic Polar Gloss and Satin.  I cannot detect any pizza wheel marks today.  I think the dyes, because they go into the paper are probably the least subject to the problem.  

I have not seen a good comparison of different inks and printers to know which are the best or worst.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jffelinik" <felix.niklasson@...> wrote:

>
> I'm about to go crazy here today...
> 
> After testing a whole bunch of different glossy/baryta papers during the last week here it turns out that all of them suffer from pizza wheel marks using Epson 1400 with MIS UT-14.
> 
> Ilford; GFS, Smooth Pearl
> Epson Traditional Photo Paper (Exhibition F)
> Canson; Photo Gloss, Photo Satin, Baryta
> HP Advanced
> 
> Of course no problems with the matte paper, but all the above papers get the pizza wheel lines in different severeness grades.
> 
> I have started to experiment with removing some of the wheels, especially the singles, but in the end I still get marks no matter what I do.
> 
> 
> Paul, if you read this, could this be resolved by proper profiling of papers making sure the amount of pigments sprayed on the papers are kept to a minimum, or is this just something I dream about and hope to be a proper solution?
> 
> What else can be done, anything at all? Or am I doomed to go to the bank and get a loan for another printer? In that case, which ones should I start to look out for?
> 
> 
> As most of you who have or have had this problem already noticed, it takes a certain angle, light, and in some cases a magnifying glass to see the lines, but I'm the anal kind, and I will not sleep well until I know I can produce perfect prints... ;(
> 
> 
> All ideas that have lead to resolutions are appreciated!
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> Cheers
> J.F. Felinik
>

Hmm,

The only problem using Red River papers is that I can't get them here in Europe, and shipping costs makes this a quite cumbersome alternative.

I have seen 7600 printers for 300-400 eur used, do these ones have the vacuum transport instead of the pizza rollers?


:o)


Cheers
J.F. Felinik

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> I don't have a good answer for you on how to get rid of pizza wheel marks.  Using the least amount of ink and glop in a profile no doubt helps.  I think the 1400 needs its exit rollers for good paper transport.
> 
> Yesterday I was printing glossy prints with the 1400-Claria/Noritsu dyes and the 4000 with MIS pigments.  I was using Red River Polar Pearl Metallic as well as Arctic Polar Gloss and Satin.  I cannot detect any pizza wheel marks today.  I think the dyes, because they go into the paper are probably the least subject to the problem.  
> 
> I have not seen a good comparison of different inks and printers to know which are the best or worst.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

> I don't have a good answer for you on how to get rid of pizza wheel marks.  Using the least amount of ink and glop in a profile no doubt helps.  I think the 1400 needs its exit rollers for good paper transport.

Looks like the transport works well after removing all of the single wheel rollers, at least it makes things a bit less bad, still the double rollers are affecting the prints. I even tried with Epson Premium Glossy, and lots of trails on those too.


> Yesterday I was printing glossy prints with the 1400-Claria/Noritsu dyes and the 4000 with MIS pigments.  I was using Red River Polar Pearl Metallic as well as Arctic Polar Gloss and Satin.  I cannot detect any pizza wheel marks today.  I think the dyes, because they go into the paper are probably the least subject to the problem.  

Do you print any glossy at all with 1400/UT-14 or alikes?


> I have not seen a good comparison of different inks and printers to know which are the best or worst.

But for Epson printers without pizza rollers? Which one(s) of them do you recommend for both carbon/matte and glossy with MIS inks?


I need to try to get up to speed with how to create my own profiles here in order to see if I can decrease the amount of pigments sprayed onto the papers I can get a hold of here.

Anyone else have any advice or experience with 1400 and MIS UT-14 printing glossy without pizza wheel trails?



Cheers
/J.F. Felinik

> I don't have a good answer for you on how to get rid of pizza wheel marks.  Using the least amount of ink and glop in a profile no doubt helps.  I think the 1400 needs its exit rollers for good paper transport.

I did some more experimentation yesterday keeping all the double wheels seems to have no affect the paper transport at all.  So what I did was:

- Removed all the "single" wheels
- Shimmed the "bar" that holds all the pizza roller carriers using masking tape (5-6 layers)

And with the "Heavy paper and envelopes" settings to "on" in the driver, it really seem to improve the situation.

I have a bunch of prints that I did this morning on drying here now, and tomorrow I'll see if this actually works out, if not, I'll try to increase the layers of masking tape under the paper feeding bar to see how it works out. Already the non dry prints looks much better than before the shimming, almost no pizza trails at all, so I have good hope of them vanishing completely when the prints are dry.



I'll be back....



/J.F. Felinik

I need to modify my previous post.  Today I do detect pizza wheel marks in a print made with the 4000, MIS carbon inks and Red River Actic Polar Satin.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com  

> Yesterday I was printing glossy prints with the 1400-Claria/Noritsu dyes and the 4000 with MIS pigments.  I was using Red River Polar Pearl Metallic as well as Arctic Polar Gloss and Satin.  I cannot detect any pizza wheel marks today.  I think the dyes, because they go into the paper are probably the least subject to the problem.  
> 
> I have not seen a good comparison of different inks and printers to know which are the best or worst.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
>

Regarding my shimming of the 1400, it seems to work!!

Finally I ended up with ten layers of painters masking tape (like this one: http://www.artdiscount.co.uk/images/product/Scotch_Masking_Tape1206701930_312.jpg ).

On 7 layers, I still had occasional trails, not full rows, but every here and there, so I went direct with 3 more layers, and that seem to have done the job!

Tested with glossy/semi-gloss/pearl type papers from 260-310 g, and in-between, just for testing, I ran a few prints of Epson Archival Matte, that is 192 g, and that print made it through the transport just fine, so did my ordinary 80 g sheets that I use for office/text and nozzle head check prints.

So, now all I have left to do is to test different size/format papers in order to make sure even smaller (10x15 etc.) papers make their way through.


Apart from the shimming, I've done the following:


- Driver set to "Heavy papers and Envelopes - ON"

- Removed all the "single" pizza roller wheels (which I think probably would no be necessary to do after the shimming, I just don't feel like putting them back, as long as everything works well etc.).

- Cleaned out the transport lane feeding a 210 g aquarel paper 3-4 times through the printer (which I probably should keep doing every now and then anyway, quite a bit of old ink and junk got stuck on that paper!).


I will keep on testing, now I need to do an ink refill this afternoon, and then I'll go for some more printing tests tomorrow. When I feel I'm done testing, I'll post a new thread dedicated to 1400 pizza mods.


:)



Cheers
J.F. Felinik, Now an all over happy camper!



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> I need to modify my previous post.  Today I do detect pizza wheel marks in a print made with the 4000, MIS carbon inks and Red River Actic Polar Satin.  
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

"jffelinik" <jf@...> wrote:
>
> Regarding my shimming of the 1400, it seems to work!!

Very good.  Keep an eye out for microbanding.  If you could take some pictures that show what you did and how you did this, others might be also give it a try.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

> 
> Finally I ended up with ten layers of painters masking tape (like this one: http://www.artdiscount.co.uk/images/product/Scotch_Masking_Tape1206701930_312.jpg ).
> 
> On 7 layers, I still had occasional trails, not full rows, but every here and there, so I went direct with 3 more layers, and that seem to have done the job!
> 
> Tested with glossy/semi-gloss/pearl type papers from 260-310 g, and in-between, just for testing, I ran a few prints of Epson Archival Matte, that is 192 g, and that print made it through the transport just fine, so did my ordinary 80 g sheets that I use for office/text and nozzle head check prints.
> 
> So, now all I have left to do is to test different size/format papers in order to make sure even smaller (10x15 etc.) papers make their way through.
> 
> 
> Apart from the shimming, I've done the following:
> 
> 
> - Driver set to "Heavy papers and Envelopes - ON"
> 
> - Removed all the "single" pizza roller wheels (which I think probably would no be necessary to do after the shimming, I just don't feel like putting them back, as long as everything works well etc.).
> 
> - Cleaned out the transport lane feeding a 210 g aquarel paper 3-4 times through the printer (which I probably should keep doing every now and then anyway, quite a bit of old ink and junk got stuck on that paper!).
> 
> 
> I will keep on testing, now I need to do an ink refill this afternoon, and then I'll go for some more printing tests tomorrow. When I feel I'm done testing, I'll post a new thread dedicated to 1400 pizza mods.
> 
> 
> :)
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> J.F. Felinik, Now an all over happy camper!
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> >
> > I need to modify my previous post.  Today I do detect pizza wheel marks in a print made with the 4000, MIS carbon inks and Red River Actic Polar Satin.  
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
>

Thanks!

Yeah, tomorrow I'll try printing with more papers. So far the Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl tested, and show's no signs of banding. I printed on a cpl of Epson Premium Glossy papers, and I have a hard time deciding if it's in fact binding or just the fibres of the paper, as I look at older prints I notice this too, prints made before I manipulated the pizza roller metal bar, so probably it's just the paper (the suspected artifacts are only visible through magnifying glass, so probably it's the paper).

I have 4-5 more papers to test, and compare to old prints (that have pizza trails, but no signs of banding etc.), and then if everything looks perfect, I'll start a new thread about the shimming and add some photos too.


Nite.


Cheers,
/J.F. Felinik

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "jffelinik" <jf@> wrote:
> >
> > Regarding my shimming of the 1400, it seems to work!!
> 
> Very good.  Keep an eye out for microbanding.  If you could take some pictures that show what you did and how you did this, others might be also give it a try.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Okay,

Things took another turn here as I decided to go more scientific with my "project".

After finding out that, yes, there was some banding at the last portion of the papers after a certain level of shimming, obviously, as that is when the feeding is done by the pizza's that I had been manipulating with.

So in order to have a clue about when this started to happen, I decided to:

- Put back ALL wheels again
- Remove the current scotch-shims

And start all over again.

Now this is where my brain for some reason rebooted, thank gods, and I decided to have a look at how the 1400 handles different paper weights.... The EPSON documentation about this is to the least said P*SS-poor, so I googled, and found that apparently on this model, it sets the platen gab automatically. Apparently in another/older driver, or maybe on windows only (I am on OS X) this should be possible to set, but not in my system. So I googled up all the paper selections I have, and came to this list:


Ultra Glossy Photo Paper:			305 		gsm
Premium Glossy Photo Paper:		250-255	gsm
Premium Semi Gloss Photo Paper:	251		gsm
Glossy Photo Paper:				225		gsm	
Archival Matte:					192		gsm
Matte:						102		gsm
Photo Quality Inkjet Paper:		102		gsm
Photo Stickers:					180		gsm
Envelopes:					75-90	gsm


And in my case, everything should be just fine using the 305 gsm paper setting, Ultra Glossy etc.

So I printed a sheet this morning, and it was of course the best so far... It does exhibit a tiny bunch of pizza trails, but not even close to what I've had before, and I can't wait until tomorrow when the print is dry to see if they're still around...

Anyway, should tomorrow show some trails, now at least I know that I only need to shim a tiny bit, based on information found here:

http://www.paper-paper.com/weight.html

So I have some transparent film which is 0,1 mm thick, and this gives me a clue about how much I actually shim should I decide to do so tomorrow.


Hopefully end of journey, I'll be back!



Cheers
J.F. Felinik, still on my way to get a used 7600 anyway (as I've found one dirt cheap)...

Clarification:


> apparently on this model, it sets the platen gab automatically.


Based on what kind of paper you select...


> So I googled up all the paper selections I have, and came to this list:
> 
> 
> Ultra Glossy Photo Paper:			305 		gsm
> Premium Glossy Photo Paper:		250-255	gsm
> Premium Semi Gloss Photo Paper:	251		gsm
> Glossy Photo Paper:				225		gsm	
> Archival Matte:					192		gsm
> Matte:						102		gsm
> Photo Quality Inkjet Paper:		102		gsm
> Photo Stickers:					180		gsm
> Envelopes:					75-90	gsm
> 
> 
> And in my case, everything should be just fine using the 305 gsm paper setting, Ultra Glossy etc.


Cheers
/J.F. Felinik