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no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-28 by Paul

I'm very fond of my carbon prints on Premier Art FineArt paper, even to the point where I now have some 11x14 prints at a gallery with no glass or plexi, simply matted and in Nielsen matte black frames.

I've coated the prints with Premier Art PrintShield, which I suppose affords some protection. It just seems the blacks are richer with nothing else interfering with their appearance. But I'm a little nervous about their being vulnerable to dust, wayward fingers, etc.

Over the years, with my darkroom prints, I've used ordinary glass from a local glass shop... I've heard window glass has a greenish tint. I've not noticed it previously, maybe I haven't paid enough attention. And some brands of plexi seem clearer than others, from what few plexi framed prints I've seen.

Thoughts, anyone? (I did check previous threads, have seen some mention of this, sorry if this subject has been beaten to death but I didn't quite find my answers.)

Thanks!

Re: [Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-28 by pdesmidt tds.net

You might try some of the anti reflection coated glass, such as tru view,
http://www.tru-vue.com/, or Water White Glass,
http://www.waterwhiteglass.com/.  Some of their glass has coatings just like
a camera lens.  In other words, there's no nasty texture like with
anti-glare glass that lowers sharpness and contrast. It's hard to see clear
AR glass. The downside to using AR glass is the cost, and it's more delicate
to clean.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-28 by mrjimbo

Paul,
What we typically call regular glass is not optically clear.. may have a slight tint to it. The issue with not covering the prints is that typically after being up a while they get dusty and when you attempt to brush them off add skuffs to the darker densities or if the paper has some tooth to it will just start to look weird. 
We provide framing services here among other things.. My suggestion to you would be to go to a good frame shop and just ask them to show you glass options and examples.. up to and including the coated materials.. most frame shops don't stock it due to cost.. Some of this material is quite expensive but on the right piece a good investiment. True view has optical materials that are clear but the high end materials that have no glare or reflectance are specialty items.. It would be worth your effort to check them out.. just so you can see thenm and get familiar for just that right piece. The really good stuff appears to add visual density and also has no glare or reflectance...but of course for a price..They do have different levels of it..

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 1:49 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?


    
  I'm very fond of my carbon prints on Premier Art FineArt paper, even to the point where I now have some 11x14 prints at a gallery with no glass or plexi, simply matted and in Nielsen matte black frames.

  I've coated the prints with Premier Art PrintShield, which I suppose affords some protection. It just seems the blacks are richer with nothing else interfering with their appearance. But I'm a little nervous about their being vulnerable to dust, wayward fingers, etc.

  Over the years, with my darkroom prints, I've used ordinary glass from a local glass shop... I've heard window glass has a greenish tint. I've not noticed it previously, maybe I haven't paid enough attention. And some brands of plexi seem clearer than others, from what few plexi framed prints I've seen.

  Thoughts, anyone? (I did check previous threads, have seen some mention of this, sorry if this subject has been beaten to death but I didn't quite find my answers.)

  Thanks!



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-28 by Paul

Thanks Jimbo, and to the previous poster also... I hear you and will consider those non-glare glass options ... but what do you think of Plexi?

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mrjimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Paul,
> What we typically call regular glass is not optically clear.. may have a slight tint to it. The issue with not covering the prints is that typically after being up a while they get dusty and when you attempt to brush them off add skuffs to the darker densities or if the paper has some tooth to it will just start to look weird. 
> We provide framing services here among other things.. My suggestion to you would be to go to a good frame shop and just ask them to show you glass options and examples.. up to and including the coated materials.. most frame shops don't stock it due to cost.. Some of this material is quite expensive but on the right piece a good investiment. True view has optical materials that are clear but the high end materials that have no glare or reflectance are specialty items.. It would be worth your effort to check them out.. just so you can see thenm and get familiar for just that right piece. The really good stuff appears to add visual density and also has no glare or reflectance...but of course for a price..They do have different levels of it..
> 
> jimbo
>  
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Paul 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 1:49 PM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?
> 
> 
>     
>   I'm very fond of my carbon prints on Premier Art FineArt paper, even to the point where I now have some 11x14 prints at a gallery with no glass or plexi, simply matted and in Nielsen matte black frames.
> 
>   I've coated the prints with Premier Art PrintShield, which I suppose affords some protection. It just seems the blacks are richer with nothing else interfering with their appearance. But I'm a little nervous about their being vulnerable to dust, wayward fingers, etc.
> 
>   Over the years, with my darkroom prints, I've used ordinary glass from a local glass shop... I've heard window glass has a greenish tint. I've not noticed it previously, maybe I haven't paid enough attention. And some brands of plexi seem clearer than others, from what few plexi framed prints I've seen.
> 
>   Thoughts, anyone? (I did check previous threads, have seen some mention of this, sorry if this subject has been beaten to death but I didn't quite find my answers.)
> 
>   Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-28 by mrjimbo

Plexi is ok , much lighter then glass. Good plexi is spendy also but it's not available in the same coating options as glass. Typically plexi is used for larger pieces to hold the weight down.

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 3:39 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?


    
  Thanks Jimbo, and to the previous poster also... I hear you and will consider those non-glare glass options ... but what do you think of Plexi?

  Paul

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mrjimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
  >
  > Paul,
  > What we typically call regular glass is not optically clear.. may have a slight tint to it. The issue with not covering the prints is that typically after being up a while they get dusty and when you attempt to brush them off add skuffs to the darker densities or if the paper has some tooth to it will just start to look weird. 
  > We provide framing services here among other things.. My suggestion to you would be to go to a good frame shop and just ask them to show you glass options and examples.. up to and including the coated materials.. most frame shops don't stock it due to cost.. Some of this material is quite expensive but on the right piece a good investiment. True view has optical materials that are clear but the high end materials that have no glare or reflectance are specialty items.. It would be worth your effort to check them out.. just so you can see thenm and get familiar for just that right piece. The really good stuff appears to add visual density and also has no glare or reflectance...but of course for a price..They do have different levels of it..
  > 
  > jimbo
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: Paul 
  > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 1:49 PM
  > Subject: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > I'm very fond of my carbon prints on Premier Art FineArt paper, even to the point where I now have some 11x14 prints at a gallery with no glass or plexi, simply matted and in Nielsen matte black frames.
  > 
  > I've coated the prints with Premier Art PrintShield, which I suppose affords some protection. It just seems the blacks are richer with nothing else interfering with their appearance. But I'm a little nervous about their being vulnerable to dust, wayward fingers, etc.
  > 
  > Over the years, with my darkroom prints, I've used ordinary glass from a local glass shop... I've heard window glass has a greenish tint. I've not noticed it previously, maybe I haven't paid enough attention. And some brands of plexi seem clearer than others, from what few plexi framed prints I've seen.
  > 
  > Thoughts, anyone? (I did check previous threads, have seen some mention of this, sorry if this subject has been beaten to death but I didn't quite find my answers.)
  > 
  > Thanks!
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-29 by Paul

Jimbo,

I found a variety of plexi types here:

http://www.documounts.com/categories/display_description/6

and the following site lists "acrylite" ... is that the same as plexi?

http://www.archivalmethods.com/Product.cfm?categoryid=3&Productid=150

Finally, a newbie question ... why is filtering UV important? What does that do to prints, exactly?

Thanks,

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mrjimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Plexi is ok , much lighter then glass. Good plexi is spendy also but it's not available in the same coating options as glass. Typically plexi is used for larger pieces to hold the weight down.
> 
> jimbo
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Paul 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 3:39 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?
> 
> 
>     
>   Thanks Jimbo, and to the previous poster also... I hear you and will consider those non-glare glass options ... but what do you think of Plexi?
> 
>   Paul
> 
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mrjimbo" <mrjimbo@> wrote:
>   >
>   > Paul,
>   > What we typically call regular glass is not optically clear.. may have a slight tint to it. The issue with not covering the prints is that typically after being up a while they get dusty and when you attempt to brush them off add skuffs to the darker densities or if the paper has some tooth to it will just start to look weird. 
>   > We provide framing services here among other things.. My suggestion to you would be to go to a good frame shop and just ask them to show you glass options and examples.. up to and including the coated materials.. most frame shops don't stock it due to cost.. Some of this material is quite expensive but on the right piece a good investiment. True view has optical materials that are clear but the high end materials that have no glare or reflectance are specialty items.. It would be worth your effort to check them out.. just so you can see thenm and get familiar for just that right piece. The really good stuff appears to add visual density and also has no glare or reflectance...but of course for a price..They do have different levels of it..
>   > 
>   > jimbo
>   > 
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
>   > From: Paul 
>   > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 1:49 PM
>   > Subject: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > I'm very fond of my carbon prints on Premier Art FineArt paper, even to the point where I now have some 11x14 prints at a gallery with no glass or plexi, simply matted and in Nielsen matte black frames.
>   > 
>   > I've coated the prints with Premier Art PrintShield, which I suppose affords some protection. It just seems the blacks are richer with nothing else interfering with their appearance. But I'm a little nervous about their being vulnerable to dust, wayward fingers, etc.
>   > 
>   > Over the years, with my darkroom prints, I've used ordinary glass from a local glass shop... I've heard window glass has a greenish tint. I've not noticed it previously, maybe I haven't paid enough attention. And some brands of plexi seem clearer than others, from what few plexi framed prints I've seen.
>   > 
>   > Thoughts, anyone? (I did check previous threads, have seen some mention of this, sorry if this subject has been beaten to death but I didn't quite find my answers.)
>   > 
>   > Thanks!
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-29 by mrjimbo

Paul,
Acrylite would just be a brand or type of plexi.. The UV resistance is a plus as it will stop the image from getting faded due to exposure to light.. 
Typical non glare material  in acrylic or glass has an etched surface.  Typically this way of dealing with glare .... while lesser expensive the other methods usually does so at a viewing penalty. I'm not a fan of it myself as I don't care for how the images look with it. Many do find it an ok option however so I'd again recommend going to a frame shop or gallery that can show you the differences..  You really want to see them visually.. Words here just won't do it justice. It boils down to the image and how much you want to spend on it. Their is Museum Glass , Reflection Control Glass, Conservation Glass their is also Reflection Control Plexiglas.. 
In all cases as long as your going to put glass or plexi on an image you might as well use a UV material as it will make the image last longer.. Images fade notably faster then most think when displayed in certain environments.. If your doing fine art print son emight as well do what's necessary.. to a degree..
Here's a link to true views goodies.. both Glass and Acrylic ..
http://www.tru-vue.com/Tru-Vue/Products/33/
I only use Acrylic on larger pieces primarilky for a weight savings.. The practical down side to it is that it has a softer surface then glass and is easier to mark the surface when cleaning it. Also over long periods of time it looses some clarity....glass doesn't..
You may get sticker shock at teh pricing of Conservation or Museum materials.

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 6:26 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?


    
  Jimbo,

  I found a variety of plexi types here:

  http://www.documounts.com/categories/display_description/6

  and the following site lists "acrylite" ... is that the same as plexi?

  http://www.archivalmethods.com/Product.cfm?categoryid=3&Productid=150

  Finally, a newbie question ... why is filtering UV important? What does that do to prints, exactly?

  Thanks,

  Paul

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mrjimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
  >
  > Plexi is ok , much lighter then glass. Good plexi is spendy also but it's not available in the same coating options as glass. Typically plexi is used for larger pieces to hold the weight down.
  > 
  > jimbo
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: Paul 
  > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 3:39 PM
  > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Thanks Jimbo, and to the previous poster also... I hear you and will consider those non-glare glass options ... but what do you think of Plexi?
  > 
  > Paul
  > 
  > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mrjimbo" <mrjimbo@> wrote:
  > >
  > > Paul,
  > > What we typically call regular glass is not optically clear.. may have a slight tint to it. The issue with not covering the prints is that typically after being up a while they get dusty and when you attempt to brush them off add skuffs to the darker densities or if the paper has some tooth to it will just start to look weird. 
  > > We provide framing services here among other things.. My suggestion to you would be to go to a good frame shop and just ask them to show you glass options and examples.. up to and including the coated materials.. most frame shops don't stock it due to cost.. Some of this material is quite expensive but on the right piece a good investiment. True view has optical materials that are clear but the high end materials that have no glare or reflectance are specialty items.. It would be worth your effort to check them out.. just so you can see thenm and get familiar for just that right piece. The really good stuff appears to add visual density and also has no glare or reflectance...but of course for a price..They do have different levels of it..
  > > 
  > > jimbo
  > > 
  > > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > > From: Paul 
  > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  > > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 1:49 PM
  > > Subject: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > I'm very fond of my carbon prints on Premier Art FineArt paper, even to the point where I now have some 11x14 prints at a gallery with no glass or plexi, simply matted and in Nielsen matte black frames.
  > > 
  > > I've coated the prints with Premier Art PrintShield, which I suppose affords some protection. It just seems the blacks are richer with nothing else interfering with their appearance. But I'm a little nervous about their being vulnerable to dust, wayward fingers, etc.
  > > 
  > > Over the years, with my darkroom prints, I've used ordinary glass from a local glass shop... I've heard window glass has a greenish tint. I've not noticed it previously, maybe I haven't paid enough attention. And some brands of plexi seem clearer than others, from what few plexi framed prints I've seen.
  > > 
  > > Thoughts, anyone? (I did check previous threads, have seen some mention of this, sorry if this subject has been beaten to death but I didn't quite find my answers.)
  > > 
  > > Thanks!
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > >
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-29 by Ernst Dinkla

mrjimbo schreef:
> Paul,
> Acrylite would just be a brand or type of plexi.. The UV resistance is a plus as it will stop the image from getting faded due to exposure to light.. 
> Typical non glare material  in acrylic or glass has an etched surface.  
> 

Plexiglas is the (German) R\ufffdhm (und Haas) brand name for PMMA, 
PolyMethylMetaAcrylate. The common brand name in the English speaking 
world was Perspex as coined by ICI, UK, the inventor of that plastic. 
More brand names exist.

For glass etching is a way to achieve non glare, for both glass and PMMA 
the other choice is a coating layer, either on teh outside or on both 
sides.

Colorant fading indoors happens in more ways than by UV light, visible 
light is probably the main cause for framed prints whether behind UV 
cutting glass or normal glass, Other factors are humidity, gas fading 
and the combination of them all. You will find sufficient information at 
the Aardenburg site.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Re: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-29 by mrjimbo

Ernst,
Now your bringing back memories......Rohm and Hass.... In my younger days I was involved in automotive prototype..  We would use Roman and Hass materieals to make all the glass used for the non functional prototypes.. 

If I'm not mistaken today they are considered the best or biggest business partner to Acrylic type material manufacturing facilities in China.
You are correct other influences besides UV cause images fade.. This post started out notably more basic..  To cover or not to cover a print with glass or acrylic..

jimbo 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ernst Dinkla 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 3:46 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?


    
  mrjimbo schreef:
  > Paul,
  > Acrylite would just be a brand or type of plexi.. The UV resistance is a plus as it will stop the image from getting faded due to exposure to light.. 
  > Typical non glare material in acrylic or glass has an etched surface. 
  > 

  Plexiglas is the (German) Röhm (und Haas) brand name for PMMA, 
  PolyMethylMetaAcrylate. The common brand name in the English speaking 
  world was Perspex as coined by ICI, UK, the inventor of that plastic. 
  More brand names exist.

  For glass etching is a way to achieve non glare, for both glass and PMMA 
  the other choice is a coating layer, either on teh outside or on both 
  sides.

  Colorant fading indoors happens in more ways than by UV light, visible 
  light is probably the main cause for framed prints whether behind UV 
  cutting glass or normal glass, Other factors are humidity, gas fading 
  and the combination of them all. You will find sufficient information at 
  the Aardenburg site.

  -- 
  Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

  spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
  http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

  | Dinkla Grafische Techniek |
  | www.pigment-print.com |
  | ( unvollendet ) |



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-29 by Paul

Thank you, Ernst.

Actually, I have some carbon prints now under review at Aardenburg. My test run began last February and so far results are looking good. Mark (Aardenburg's director) points out in one of his documents that he uses a Philips light source and that the print is under "ordinary glass picture framing". He says this spectral response is similar to daylight passing through "standard acrylic glazing". I wonder if this "ordinary glass" and "standard acrylic" do not filter UV. Perhaps if Mark is following this thread he'll jump in and help us clarify.

Full disclosure! I have no financial connection with Aardenburg but I do want to put in a plug for this service... it is well worth the modest membership fee.

Regards,

Paul

I submitted samples last 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Colorant fading indoors happens in more ways than by UV light, visible 
> light is probably the main cause for framed prints whether behind UV 
> cutting glass or normal glass, Other factors are humidity, gas fading 
> and the combination of them all. You will find sufficient information at 
> the Aardenburg site.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
> http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
> 
> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
> |         www.pigment-print.com        |
> |                 ( unvollendet )                 |
>

Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-29 by mrgs1001

Regular glass and acrylic both provide some UV-filtration. I have not seen hard numbers but I have heard around 50%. If the glass or acrylic has UV filter then it will block 98%-99% but the coating causes a slight yellow tint that has a warming effect. Even the Truvue museum glass will have a slight warming effect due to the UV filter. I have found that good regular acrylic such as Cyro Acrylite is very optically pure and no green or yellow tint but it is susceptible to glare and as mentioned, the non-glare is etched and reduces sharpness. TruVue also puts the anti-reflection coating on Cryo Acrylite acrylic and sells it as Optium but it is even more expensive than the Museum glass. 

Personally I prefer standard acrylic with good lighting. It is inexpensive, light, no green tint, and I don't have to worry about it breaking. Decent framing glass is even less expensive than say Acrylite acrylic and although it has a green tint, cheaper glass at say a typical hardware store or on some import frames can have even more green tint. Some of our customers that do not have control over lighting will go for non-glare etched surface. The Cryo non-glare is not too bad but I have seen some non-glare surfaces that are just horrible. For etched surfaces you have to be concerned about the distance between the image and the glazing so you cant use it on things like shadow boxes. 

On our website we have a page that discusses some of the trade-offs between glass and acrylic and another that talks about regular vs non-glare acrylic:
http://www.framedestination.com/picture_frame_info.html


Cheers,
Mark
Frame Destination, Inc.
http://www.framedestination.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Thank you, Ernst.
> 
> Actually, I have some carbon prints now under review at Aardenburg. My test run began last February and so far results are looking good. Mark (Aardenburg's director) points out in one of his documents that he uses a Philips light source and that the print is under "ordinary glass picture framing". He says this spectral response is similar to daylight passing through "standard acrylic glazing". I wonder if this "ordinary glass" and "standard acrylic" do not filter UV. Perhaps if Mark is following this thread he'll jump in and help us clarify.
> 
> Full disclosure! I have no financial connection with Aardenburg but I do want to put in a plug for this service... it is well worth the modest membership fee.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Paul
>

Re: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-29 by R Craig Blackman

Very interesting commentary. I have wanted to try the Premier FA. I think I will 
and will also use the PrintShield. I also dislike using glass;however, it's a 
must in most cases.\
Craig



________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Paul <paulmwhiting@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, August 28, 2010 2:49:07 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at 
its best?

  
I'm very fond of my carbon prints on Premier Art FineArt paper, even to the 
point where I now have some 11x14 prints at a gallery with no glass or plexi, 
simply matted and in Nielsen matte black frames.

I've coated the prints with Premier Art PrintShield, which I suppose affords 
some protection. It just seems the blacks are richer with nothing else 
interfering with their appearance. But I'm a little nervous about their being 
vulnerable to dust, wayward fingers, etc.

Over the years, with my darkroom prints, I've used ordinary glass from a local 
glass shop... I've heard window glass has a greenish tint. I've not noticed it 
previously, maybe I haven't paid enough attention. And some brands of plexi seem 
clearer than others, from what few plexi framed prints I've seen.

Thoughts, anyone? (I did check previous threads, have seen some mention of this, 
sorry if this subject has been beaten to death but I didn't quite find my 
answers.)

Thanks!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-29 by Paul

"Paul" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
>
> I'm very fond of my carbon prints on Premier Art FineArt paper, even to the point where I now have some 11x14 prints at a gallery with no glass or plexi, simply matted and in Nielsen matte black frames.

I've tried to get away from glass or acrylic (often referred to generically also as "plexiglass"), but fear that the matte surface is just too fragile, even with a spray.  I used glass for a long time due to the ease with which acrylic scratches.  However, for safety and to avoid breakage in shipping and handling, I gave up on glass. (Oddly, I lost a sale the other day when the purchaser learned the large piece used acrylic instead of glass.)

For those close to West Los Angeles, my supplier -- Solter Plastics at 12016 W. Pico -- has the best retail prices I've found.  He also claims to supply the Getty Museum with the anti-reflection coated acrylic they use.  He quoted some prices that were out of my league, but the materials I've seen at the Getty do appear to be the best.  I don't see, for example, the greenish reflections in the dark areas of the prints that I see with Tru-View's coated glass.

I'm not sure the UV absorption is that important for the carbon you're using.  I'm sure you're following the Aardenburg tests.  The fade rate of the carbon is so low I would not worry about it.

One thing I've been curious about, however, is whether the UV glazing would stop the dyes in brightened paper from fading and causing the print to warm up.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-29 by Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> I'm not sure the UV absorption is that important for the carbon you're using.  I'm sure you're following the Aardenburg tests.  The fade rate of the carbon is so low I would not worry about it.

That's pretty much what I suspected - and - the comment I hoped to hear! Thanks very much. In one of Mark's pdfs he mentions using "ordinary glass picture frame glazing" and that it simulates "standard acrylic glazing" - these terms imply to me these materials have no UV filtering.

Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-30 by mrgs1001

Glass and acrylic both have some decent filtering and protection including UV that is why any time you see quotes about paper and ink longevity they are always quoted for images that are behind glass.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <
> That's pretty much what I suspected - and - the comment I hoped to hear! Thanks very much. In one of Mark's pdfs he mentions using "ordinary glass picture frame glazing" and that it simulates "standard acrylic glazing" - these terms imply to me these materials have no UV filtering.
>

Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-30 by Paul

Thank you! By that you mean just "ordinary" glass or acrylic, not the more expensive variety that is advertised as having special UV filtering?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mrgs1001" <mrgs1001@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Glass and acrylic both have some decent filtering and protection including UV that is why any time you see quotes about paper and ink longevity they are always quoted for images that are behind glass.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <
> > That's pretty much what I suspected - and - the comment I hoped to hear! Thanks very much. In one of Mark's pdfs he mentions using "ordinary glass picture frame glazing" and that it simulates "standard acrylic glazing" - these terms imply to me these materials have no UV filtering.
> >
>

Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-30 by mrgs1001

Yes, just plain old glass has some uv filter, just not 98% like the filter stuff has, but I have not seen hard numbers as to how much.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Thank you! By that you mean just "ordinary" glass or acrylic, not the more expensive variety that is advertised as having special UV filtering?
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-30 by Ernst Dinkla

mrgs1001 schreef:
> Yes, just plain old glass has some uv filter, just not 98% like the filter stuff has, but I have not seen hard numbers as to how much.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
>> Thank you! By that you mean just "ordinary" glass or acrylic, not the more expensive variety that is advertised as having special UV filtering?

The UV cutting of plain window glass is at about 380 Nm where typical UV 
blocking glass tries to get that done at 400 Nm.

There is a PDF here about the spectral transmission of several grades of 
framing glass, acrylics and foils.

http://www.icn.nl/getasset.aspx?id=2604

In Dutch but with the spectral plots for each type


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Re: [Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-30 by john castronovo

The dirty little secret I heard is that ALL plastics have some u.v. 
filtering, more so to protect the plastic itself from breaking down than 
to protect what's behind it. Acrylite (and I suppose Plexi and others) 
in the normal grades filter a good deal of u.v., possibly over 80%, but 
the more exotic museum grades filter as much as 98% but for a high price 
differential that puts it out of range for anything but museum use.

What people have asked me recently is which products are more 
environmentally friendly, glass or acrylic?
 I'd assume glass, but I'm not so sure.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "mrgs1001" <mrgs1001@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 8:27 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows 
carbon print at its best?


Glass and acrylic both have some decent filtering and protection 
including UV that is why any time you see quotes about paper and ink 
longevity they are always quoted for images that are behind glass.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> That's pretty much what I suspected - and - the comment I hoped to 
> hear! Thanks very much. In one of Mark's pdfs he mentions using 
> "ordinary glass picture frame glazing" and that it simulates "standard 
> acrylic glazing" - these terms imply to me these materials have no UV 
> filtering.

[Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-30 by jerryhadam

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john castronovo" <jc@...> wrote:
>
> The dirty little secret I heard is that ALL plastics have some u.v. 
> filtering, more so to protect the plastic itself from breaking down than 
> to protect what's behind it. Acrylite (and I suppose Plexi and others) 
> in the normal grades filter a good deal of u.v., possibly over 80%, but 
> the more exotic museum grades filter as much as 98% but for a high price 


Some good info in here. I am not up on NMs Ernst and didn't actually go into that article. What my glass reps have told me ( I am a custom framer, gallery and photographer- http://saddletreegallery.com/ ) since I carry mostly Tru View I will reference that: 
Premium Clear is "regular" glass and filters about 35% of UVA UVB from hitting your artwork. 

Conservation Clear is available in regular and Non Glare finishes and filters at about 98.5 % rate. 

Museum Glass is around 99 percent. 

Jimbo - acrylic also comes in the "museum" coatings, and is known as Optium. It is easier to clean than the glass but nearly twice as expensive. Full sheets at wholesale are over a $1,000. So jimbo is right be prepared for sticker shock if you are looking into that. 

One misnomer is that Museum coating eliminate reflections. They do not. They minimize to the point on not being easily seen. I have framed hundreds of pieces with museum glass and Optium. To prevent customer disappointment, I have a framed sample that I encourage them to take home and hang to show how well it works, but also to show that it will reflect some and to make sure that is acceptable. 

Rule of thumb in framing is paper goes under glass. I have been using a Bienfang UV rated laminating product on a lot of my own photography and people really seem to like not having to deal with glass and reflections. 

If you have your print coated with ArtShield or similar, I would think the degradation and dirtying of the mat would be as big of issue as the print. If I have coated a print I don't have any trouble dusting it. And it will need it. Once a white mat has dust on it, it's almost impossible to clean. Almost all mats that I have seen that aren't under glass will warp over time. Less so in the 8 ply. 

That's all I have.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-30 by mrjimbo

Hey Jerry ,
Good Post! 
John is correct that plastics have UV in them and they need it.. A further thought on this .. Plastics over time degrade and the UV additive in it along with it.. That is not the case with glass. I'm sure over a totally different time element it also deteriorates. The issue I have with spraying a print directly is that will certainly be the minimal life span of a UV potential..
The comment regarding the mats is oh so true..  The will loose their whiteness or color typically quicker then a print and also without the glass over them will change shape or warp. Possibly no mats are used in the original posters scenario.. I typically use them.. for me as soon as dust would start to settle on the job it would be over as the cut edge of the mat would be subject to it also.. I like using glass and occasionally acrylic if the job is large. Admittedly I'm probably more traditional in my logic.. In the gallery area of the studio we have quite a few image on display.. The studio is quite tight but they all still get dusty.. 
I still contend that a great experience is simply to go to a place that one can visually experience the various coatings on art.. It is truly worth the effort.. The higher end material sare options here and are typically used to solve a display issue with reflectance but at a substantial price.. 

I am curious about laminating to accomplish this .. might be worth a try. Still doesn't deal with the mat though.

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: jerryhadam 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:55 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?


    


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john castronovo" <jc@...> wrote:
  >
  > The dirty little secret I heard is that ALL plastics have some u.v. 
  > filtering, more so to protect the plastic itself from breaking down than 
  > to protect what's behind it. Acrylite (and I suppose Plexi and others) 
  > in the normal grades filter a good deal of u.v., possibly over 80%, but 
  > the more exotic museum grades filter as much as 98% but for a high price 

  Some good info in here. I am not up on NMs Ernst and didn't actually go into that article. What my glass reps have told me ( I am a custom framer, gallery and photographer- http://saddletreegallery.com/ ) since I carry mostly Tru View I will reference that: 
  Premium Clear is "regular" glass and filters about 35% of UVA UVB from hitting your artwork. 

  Conservation Clear is available in regular and Non Glare finishes and filters at about 98.5 % rate. 

  Museum Glass is around 99 percent. 

  Jimbo - acrylic also comes in the "museum" coatings, and is known as Optium. It is easier to clean than the glass but nearly twice as expensive. Full sheets at wholesale are over a $1,000. So jimbo is right be prepared for sticker shock if you are looking into that. 

  One misnomer is that Museum coating eliminate reflections. They do not. They minimize to the point on not being easily seen. I have framed hundreds of pieces with museum glass and Optium. To prevent customer disappointment, I have a framed sample that I encourage them to take home and hang to show how well it works, but also to show that it will reflect some and to make sure that is acceptable. 

  Rule of thumb in framing is paper goes under glass. I have been using a Bienfang UV rated laminating product on a lot of my own photography and people really seem to like not having to deal with glass and reflections. 

  If you have your print coated with ArtShield or similar, I would think the degradation and dirtying of the mat would be as big of issue as the print. If I have coated a print I don't have any trouble dusting it. And it will need it. Once a white mat has dust on it, it's almost impossible to clean. Almost all mats that I have seen that aren't under glass will warp over time. Less so in the 8 ply. 

  That's all I have. 



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-30 by Mark

From the literature I've gathered in and experiments I have done during the course of my research on the light fading of artwork, my personal take on the UV filtering issue is that it's a complex issue, but we can indeed make some generalizations:

1) Outdoor sunlight is rich in UV content with what scientists call UVC energy in the 260-280nm wavelength range, UVB energy in the 280 to 315nm wavelength range (which is the primary cause of skin sunburn), and UVA energy from 315-390nm band.  Ordinary glass used for picture glazing and house windows is a soda lime composition. The degree of greenish tint in it comes from other trace level impurities in the glass so better quality picture frame glass is often selected to have less green tint than typical window glass, but nevertheless the bulk soda lime composition acts as a strong cut-off filter for UV energy below 340 nm wavelength. Hence, ordinary glass effectively filters UVC and UVB energy which is why we don't get sunburned sitting behind glass but most of the UVA energy gets transmitted.  Standard acrylic becomes sharply cutting at about 360 nm, enough to block about 90% of the UV  energy if you count all the UVC, UVB and UVC energy in the calculation. All of the "UV blocking" types of glazing such as OP3 plexiglass, or AR coated "museum" glass cut sharply at 390-400 nm, hence achieving 98-99% UV blocking efficiency.  To cut off so strongly right at the UVA-visible transition of 400nm, UVA blocking acrylic like OP3 plexi also begins to lose its highest visible energy transmission characteristics at slightly longer wavelenghs such as 420-450nm. Hence, this type of acrylic starts to impart a slight yellow tint to the artwork (because it's also absorbing proportionately more blue light than green or red). Many find the slight yellow tint unsatisfactory. The AR coated glass and AR coated acrylic (very expensive as others have noted but it is available) can be fine tuned to do better on this UV-Vis transmission issue, but even so, when you view the artwork off angle, these thin AR films start to impart various tints as well.  Which brings us back to standard acrylic as arguably the best UV-visible wavelength transmission compromise in terms of eliminating UV energy without imparting a visual tint.

2). The UV or no UV issue gets more complicated for framers due to the widespread use of optical brighteners (OBAs) in modern papers. OBAs generally have peak absorptions at 370nm, Thus if that peak wavelength region is fully blocked by the cover glazing, the OBAs won't fluoresce well at all, and images made on "bright-white" papers will lose their bright white appearance under the glazing. Standard acrylic which still allows a significant part of the 370nm energy to get through will enable the OBAs to still perform their function albeit not as well as ordinary glass which transmits more 370nm radiation than acrylic. Fully UV filtered glazing will essentially shut down the functional fluorescence of the OBAs (yet ironically help to preserve its fluorescing properties longer should the artwork later be removed from that framing package).

3). Now for the pragmatic part of the debate: What is the total practical benefit of filtering or not filtering UV on the actual fade rate of the artwork? 

In numerous technical studies, it has been found that full UV filtering can under the most UV-rich indoor display conditions like direct sunlight streaming through a window typically help to reduce the fade rate by a factor of two to three. Some people wrongly believe that if you filter the UV completely, the artwork won't ever show any light-induced fading.  However, visible energy (what we call light), especially the blue wavelength region, is still potent enough photon per photon and abundant enough in indoor display situations to cause light-induced fading of pigments and dyes.  
 
A factor of two to three is indeed significant which is why most museum conservators and picture framers consider UV filtered glazing a worthy endeavor, but here's the big fallacy in the UV blocking argument.  If you don't also pay attention to the total illumination level, the benefit of conservation framing can very quickly be squandered!   For example, a homeowner can move a print on the wall a few feet closer to a window and unknowingly increase the average illumination level ten or one hundred fold, thus increasing the fade rate proportionately and thus overwhelming the practical benefit of the UV filtered glazing. Take a light meter and walk around your indoor environment and you will quickly see what I mean. The bottom line is that if you took two identical prints, one framed with the best UV blocking glazing and the other under ordinary glass, and place them a few feet apart on an interior wall, you might find accidentally in time that the one with ordinary glass is fading less than the one that received all the first-class conservation framing techniques.  It is simply because average indoor illumination levels can easily vary by three orders of magnitude throughout the interior of a typical building.  It is the choice of  total illumination level that the end-user should therefore be most concerned about. The UV filtering benefit is no where near as important as the choice of illumination level on the print, but unfortunately the typical consumer usually has no first-hand knowledge of this fact and has often been lulled into a false sense of security by purchasing the conservation framing.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> mrgs1001 schreef:
> > Yes, just plain old glass has some uv filter, just not 98% like the filter stuff has, but I have not seen hard numbers as to how much.
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <paulmwhiting@> wrote:
> >> Thank you! By that you mean just "ordinary" glass or acrylic, not the more expensive variety that is advertised as having special UV filtering?
> 
> The UV cutting of plain window glass is at about 380 Nm where typical UV 
> blocking glass tries to get that done at 400 Nm.
> 
> There is a PDF here about the spectral transmission of several grades of 
> framing glass, acrylics and foils.
> 
> http://www.icn.nl/getasset.aspx?id=2604
> 
> In Dutch but with the spectral plots for each type
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
> 
> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
> |         www.pigment-print.com        |
> |                 ( unvollendet )                 |
>

[Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-30 by Paul

"Mark" <mark@...> wrote:

Thanks for the great post, Mark.

> ... standard acrylic as arguably the best UV-visible wavelength transmission compromise in terms of eliminating UV energy without imparting a visual tint.

That's been my conclusion also.  

 
> 2). ... Standard acrylic which still allows a significant part of the 370nm energy to get through will enable the OBAs to still perform their function albeit not as well as ordinary glass which transmits more 370nm radiation than acrylic. ...

In practice, the "Bright White" version of Premier's Smooth Fine Art paper, under acrylic, still retains its very neutral if not cool look with dilute carbon mixes.  But, I fear that the rate of the OBA fade is still inconsistent with the assumptions of "fine art."  I sure do like the look of the combination, however, and that combo is still what hangs in my home.

 
> 3). ...Some people wrongly believe that if you filter the UV completely, the artwork won't ever show any light-induced fading.

This is not helped by some companies that sell UV coating doing tests of their UV coating done with UV light.  So, the shielding cuts out essentially all the light -- but it's totally irrelevant and a bogus test.


>  However, visible energy (what we call light), especially the blue wavelength region, is still potent enough photon per photon and abundant enough in indoor display situations to cause light-induced fading of pigments and dyes. 

Medical researchers have also found eye damage from visible blue light.

  
> ... If you don't also pay attention to the total illumination level, the benefit of conservation framing can very quickly be squandered!   For example, a homeowner can move a print on the wall a few feet closer to a window and unknowingly increase the average illumination level ten or one hundred fold, ...


I think an additional note would be that the artificial light we usually us is rather low in UV content.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-30 by pdesmidt tds.net

To sum up then, we have good reason to believe:

1) UV filtering can significantly minimize the fading of a print.
2) UV filtering is not the only display level variable that effects print
fading.
3) The overall light level and length of exposure is very important with
regard to image fading.
4)  Each type of framing glazing has unique visual properties.  For example,
regular glass has a green tint, and maximum UV filtering materials often
have a yellowish tint.
5)  If a paper and mat have optical brighteners, the spectrum of light
hitting the print, a combination of the light source and glazing material,
will effect how effective the optical brighteners will be, and how long they
last.
6) Reflections on the framing glazing can greatly hinder the enjoyment of
the print.
7) Reflections are effected by lighting, light sources in the display area,
and type of glazing.
8) Some types of glazing are much more durable to surface defects and easier
to clean than others, with regular glass being easy to clean and resistant
to scratches.
9) Some types of glazing, such as acrylic, are much more resistent to impact
or shock damage, important when shipping for example, than others.
10) The costs of glazing materials varies widely.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-30 by Mark

Well said! Thank you.

Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pdesmidt tds.net" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> To sum up then, we have good reason to believe:
> 
> 1) UV filtering can significantly minimize the fading of a print.
> 2) UV filtering is not the only display level variable that effects print
> fading.
> 3) The overall light level and length of exposure is very important with
> regard to image fading.
> 4)  Each type of framing glazing has unique visual properties.  For example,
> regular glass has a green tint, and maximum UV filtering materials often
> have a yellowish tint.
> 5)  If a paper and mat have optical brighteners, the spectrum of light
> hitting the print, a combination of the light source and glazing material,
> will effect how effective the optical brighteners will be, and how long they
> last.
> 6) Reflections on the framing glazing can greatly hinder the enjoyment of
> the print.
> 7) Reflections are effected by lighting, light sources in the display area,
> and type of glazing.
> 8) Some types of glazing are much more durable to surface defects and easier
> to clean than others, with regular glass being easy to clean and resistant
> to scratches.
> 9) Some types of glazing, such as acrylic, are much more resistent to impact
> or shock damage, important when shipping for example, than others.
> 10) The costs of glazing materials varies widely.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-30 by HarryB

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> I think an additional note would be that the artificial light we usually use is rather low in UV content.
> 

A couple of years ago the only printer I had working was a Canon 9000.  I printed a B/W 8x10 of a dancer that I had photographed with 35mm TriX years before and stuck it in a bookshelf.  It's out of direct light altogether.  As far as I can tell, it hasn't faded at all.  And it's on Dell glossy paper no less, which is all I had available when the notion struck me.  Go figure!  I loved to photograph that dancer and I'm thrilled each time I look at that print.  Harry

[Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-31 by mrgs1001

I have been told a different version. Since the UV filter is built into the acrylic it is permanent but since it is just a coating on the glass it can be worn off over time depending on how aggressive the cleaning is. I suspect both are true, but I dont know which happens quicker.

Cheers,
Mark
http://www.framedestination.com/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mrjimbo" 
> JPlastics over time degrade and the UV additive in it along with it.. That is not the case with glass.

[Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-31 by mrgs1001

This is a good summary. I have more detail info about the different versions of acrylic, tips on dealing with static charge, easy way to remove the protective paper, and pros and cons of framing glass vs acylic on this page:
http://www.framedestination.com/acrylic_selection.html

Cheers,
Mark
Frame Destination, Inc.
http://www.framedestination.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pdesmidt tds.net" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> To sum up then, we have good reason to believe:
> 
> 1) UV filtering can significantly minimize the fading of a print.
> 2) UV filtering is not the only display level variable that effects print
> fading.
> 3) The overall light level and length of exposure is very important with
> regard to image fading.
> 4)  Each type of framing glazing has unique visual properties.  For example,
> regular glass has a green tint, and maximum UV filtering materials often
> have a yellowish tint.
> 5)  If a paper and mat have optical brighteners, the spectrum of light
> hitting the print, a combination of the light source and glazing material,
> will effect how effective the optical brighteners will be, and how long they
> last.
> 6) Reflections on the framing glazing can greatly hinder the enjoyment of
> the print.
> 7) Reflections are effected by lighting, light sources in the display area,
> and type of glazing.
> 8) Some types of glazing are much more durable to surface defects and easier
> to clean than others, with regular glass being easy to clean and resistant
> to scratches.
> 9) Some types of glazing, such as acrylic, are much more resistent to impact
> or shock damage, important when shipping for example, than others.
> 10) The costs of glazing materials varies widely.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-31 by mrjimbo

You may have something there..
I am not really sure how it ends up shaking out.. The acrylic material itself changes over time.. I was of the understanding that acrylic over time becomes harder and more brittle and in that change process looses some amount of it properties of which UV protection is one of.  I can say that exposure to direct sunlight for extended periods actually change plastics very very quickly. 
This has been an interesting thread.. in that what has shown up is that basically all radiation is inherently harmful.. The solar system has three types.. UV, Visible light and infrared.. The shorter wave length radiation ( UV) does the most damage.. I for one didn't realize that regular light is also harmful.. 

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mrgs1001 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 7:49 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?


    
  I have been told a different version. Since the UV filter is built into the acrylic it is permanent but since it is just a coating on the glass it can be worn off over time depending on how aggressive the cleaning is. I suspect both are true, but I dont know which happens quicker.

  Cheers,
  Mark
  http://www.framedestination.com/

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mrjimbo" 
  > JPlastics over time degrade and the UV additive in it along with it.. That is not the case with glass.



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-31 by Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mrjimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:

> The comment regarding the mats is oh so true..  The will loose their whiteness or color typically quicker then a print and also without the glass over them will change shape or warp. Possibly no mats are used in the original posters scenario. I typically use them.. for me as soon as dust would start to settle on the job it would be over as the cut edge of the mat would be subject to it also.

Well, I'm the OP... and my carbon prints do have a window matte. And, I'd like to add a big thank you to all of you. This thread has answered my questions and even answered questions I didn't know I had! As a result, I plan to go to the gallery where I have my prints and quickly put some covering, glass or acrylic, over them. I had not thought of the matte getting dusty, warped, whatever.

A great thread... thanks again.

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-31 by Ernst Dinkla

mrjimbo schreef:
> You may have something there.. I am not really sure how it ends up 
> shaking out.. The acrylic material itself changes over time.. I was 
> of the understanding that acrylic over time becomes harder and more 
> brittle and in that change process looses some amount of it 
> properties of which UV protection is one of.  I can say that exposure
>  to direct sunlight for extended periods actually change plastics
> very very quickly. 
> 
> jimbo

Pure PMMA is one of most stable plastics around regarding sunlight
exposure (UV included). It is more brittle than PC, PET or PVC when new
and later on. In practice PC gets UV blocking surface layers
(coextrusion) for outdoor use but PMMA not. Where PVC gets plasticisers
added to give more flexibility that isn't done with PMMA. Transparent
PMMA withstands some decades of outdoor exposure. It becomes a bit more
brittle in time and the material stress created in the production
process (vacuumforming, extrusion) may show cracks later on due to
temperature changes and mechanical impact. Indoors and produced as a
flat  sheet/panel in the casting process, there is little change in the
structural strength over time. It shows like many plastics electrostatic
behaviour so it can get filthy. It scratches faster than glass but less
than PC. There are varieties with a more scratch resistant coating.



-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

[Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-31 by Paul

"Paul" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
>
> ... I plan to go to the gallery where I have my prints and quickly put some covering, glass or acrylic, over them...


Every time I've tried to get away from the traditional B&W display -- matted under glazing -- I have given up due to negative feedback.  I think our medium is, in fact, a very conservative one.  On the other hand, the traditional formula works.

Good luck with the gallery.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-31 by Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> Every time I've tried to get away from the traditional B&W display -- matted under glazing -- I have given up due to negative feedback.  I think our medium is, in fact, a very conservative one.

By "our medium", I assume you mean carbon prints?

> On the other hand, the traditional formula works.

Thanks for the reinforcement, Paul. Guess I had to run all the ideas by me, till I ended up where I started!

> Good luck with the gallery.

Thanks! It's only one of two galleries in Montana dedicated to photography - here's their website: http://www.mtphotoarts.com/

My work is not online at them moment, it's just at the physical gallery.

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-31 by R Craig Blackman

John, this may be "all you have," but for me, it's a lot. You answered two 
questions that I have been concerned about: how to handle dust on white, and I 
know that all poster, mats, etc will eventally warp. At least I thought so.
Thanks, Craig




________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: jerryhadam <jerry@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m
Sent: Mon, August 30, 2010 7:55:58 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print 
at its best?

  


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john castronovo" <jc@...> 
wrote:
>
> The dirty little secret I heard is that ALL plastics have some u.v. 
> filtering, more so to protect the plastic itself from breaking down than 
> to protect what's behind it. Acrylite (and I suppose Plexi and others) 
> in the normal grades filter a good deal of u.v., possibly over 80%, but 
> the more exotic museum grades filter as much as 98% but for a high price 

Some good info in here. I am not up on NMs Ernst and didn't actually go into 
that article. What my glass reps have told me ( I am a custom framer, gallery 
and photographer- http://saddletreegallery.com/ ) since I carry mostly Tru View 
I will reference that: 

Premium Clear is "regular" glass and filters about 35% of UVA UVB from hitting 
your artwork. 


Conservation Clear is available in regular and Non Glare finishes and filters at 
about 98.5 % rate. 


Museum Glass is around 99 percent. 

Jimbo - acrylic also comes in the "museum" coatings, and is known as Optium. It 
is easier to clean than the glass but nearly twice as expensive. Full sheets at 
wholesale are over a $1,000. So jimbo is right be prepared for sticker shock if 
you are looking into that. 


One misnomer is that Museum coating eliminate reflections. They do not. They 
minimize to the point on not being easily seen. I have framed hundreds of pieces 
with museum glass and Optium. To prevent customer disappointment, I have a 
framed sample that I encourage them to take home and hang to show how well it 
works, but also to show that it will reflect some and to make sure that is 
acceptable. 


Rule of thumb in framing is paper goes under glass. I have been using a Bienfang 
UV rated laminating product on a lot of my own photography and people really 
seem to like not having to deal with glass and reflections. 


If you have your print coated with ArtShield or similar, I would think the 
degradation and dirtying of the mat would be as big of issue as the print. If I 
have coated a print I don't have any trouble dusting it. And it will need it. 
Once a white mat has dust on it, it's almost impossible to clean. Almost all 
mats that I have seen that aren't under glass will warp over time. Less so in 
the 8 ply. 


That's all I have. 




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Re: [Digital BW] Re: no glass vs. glass vs. plexi: which shows carbon print at its best?

2010-08-31 by Gary Brown

When my daughter was a toddler (20 years ago), I photographed her using Tri-X. The image was printed on Ilford Galleria. 
The print was mounted using a method called "Optimount" at a professional lab in Chicago called "Gamma".
The print was mounted on tempered masonite, then covered with an optically clear adhesive and covered with 1/4" clear acrylic.
The "Optimount" process is airtight. The print was large (18" x 54") made up of 3 images. I realize 20 years is not that long 
in the whole scheme of things, but that print looks as good today as the day it was picked it up.

Gamma is still in business:

http://gammaimaging.com/

Gary

baffin@...
http://www.garyallenbrownphoto.com


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