Digital BW, The Print

I put my trust in someone on this list who it turns out, feels no need to keep his word. So here I am right back at zero, except for the fact that I bought a printer and cartridges based on that person's unkept promises.

I have a spanking new Epson 3800 and a set of refillable ink cartridges for it from Piezography. What I do not have is ink.

I make monochrome brown tone prints. Not sepia, not warm, not subtle but BROWN! At this point, I will take just about ANY monochrome brown inks anyone here is willing to sell me. Beggars can't be choosers.

dk

On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:47 AM, davidkachel wrote:

> I put my trust in someone on this list who it turns out, feels no  
> need to keep his word. So here I am right back at zero, except for  
> the fact that I bought a printer and cartridges based on that  
> person's unkept promises.
>
> I have a spanking new Epson 3800 and a set of refillable ink  
> cartridges for it from Piezography. What I do not have is ink.
>
> I make monochrome brown tone prints. Not sepia, not warm, not subtle  
> but BROWN! At this point, I will take just about ANY monochrome  
> brown inks anyone here is willing to sell me. Beggars can't be  
> choosers.

i suspect we've been around this loop before; but the Epson inks that  
came with your 3800 will make pretty nice brown prints... you may be  
making this more work than necessary.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You really need to explain in more detail. What do you want?

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:47 AM, davidkachel wrote:

> I put my trust in someone on this list who it turns out, feels no  
> need to keep his word. So here I am right back at zero, except for  
> the fact that I bought a printer and cartridges based on that  
> person's unkept promises.
>
> I have a spanking new Epson 3800 and a set of refillable ink  
> cartridges for it from Piezography. What I do not have is ink.
>
> I make monochrome brown tone prints. Not sepia, not warm, not subtle  
> but BROWN! At this point, I will take just about ANY monochrome  
> brown inks anyone here is willing to sell me. Beggars can't be  
> choosers.
>
> dk

Why don't you just use the Epson inks and print with ABW with strong brown
toning ?
If that's not brown enough then you need to use the color driver.

What are you trying to achieve that this doesn't give you ?

Mike

On 14 April 2010 15:47, davidkachel <david@...> wrote:

>
>
> I put my trust in someone on this list who it turns out, feels no need to
> keep his word. So here I am right back at zero, except for the fact that I
> bought a printer and cartridges based on that person's unkept promises.
>
> I have a spanking new Epson 3800 and a set of refillable ink cartridges for
> it from Piezography. What I do not have is ink.
>
> I make monochrome brown tone prints. Not sepia, not warm, not subtle but
> BROWN! At this point, I will take just about ANY monochrome brown inks
> anyone here is willing to sell me. Beggars can't be choosers.
>
> dk
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:55 AM, C D Tobie wrote:

> i suspect we've been around this loop before; but the Epson inks that 
> came with your 3800 will make pretty nice brown prints... you may be 
> making this more work than necessary.

Please don't skew this thread off in some other direction. If I wanted to use the Epson inks, I wouldn't be subjecting myself to this frustration and wouldn't have made the original post.

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:55 AM, Mark Savoia wrote:

> You really need to explain in more detail. What do you want?

What more detail would you want? Epson 3800, monochrome ink set. Brown. What did I leave out?

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What are you trying to end up with? Sepia (of some sorts) or some  
variation of the color brown? You could have gotten both of those from  
the EOM inks. Since you tried the Piezo carbon sepia I assume you did  
not like that tone, correct?

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:04 AM, David Kachel wrote:

>
> On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:55 AM, Mark Savoia wrote:
>
>> You really need to explain in more detail. What do you want?
>
> What more detail would you want? Epson 3800, monochrome ink set.  
> Brown. What did I leave out?
>
> David Kachel

probably has been mentioned, but in case not, there's Owens Valley which, last I knew, made custom ink sets.  Saw some beautiful warm prints made with them, which is not to say they were the same brown you're after, but if you can't find any other set to your liking, might be worth an inquiry.

James

On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:17 AM, James Irelan wrote:

> probably has been mentioned, but in case not, there's Owens Valley which, last I knew, made custom ink sets. Saw some beautiful warm prints made with them, which is not to say they were the same brown you're after, but if you can't find any other set to your liking, might be worth an inquiry.

Thanks for the suggestion. Let it suffice to say, there are no inks available to me there.

David Kachel



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David,

I have not looked at the archives for your definition "brown." However, I looked at the image posted on your website, and crude measurements using color info in PS, I see that your *b values range from approximately 8 in highlights rising to approximately 25 in mid tones, and then drop back down in the deepest shadows. I am not aware of any monotone inkset that can do that for you.

look at the *L*a*b curve posted here

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBW-PrintExchanges/photos/album/1054878117/pic/1161818358/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

Is that sufficient for you? This was achieved with using Image Specialist (IS) K3 compatible inks in the LK and LLK position, with Epson OEM PK. The paper was Epson Exhibition Fiber. If your interest is matte papers, you will not be able to achieve such "warmth" ot "brown." But other PK papers may be able to achieve slightly greater *b values, upto perhaps 15.

To push for greater *b values, you will need to add color inks in your set-up. If you not do want to use Epson color inks, that is just fine. You can instead use 3rd party K3 compatible inks and get the look you are after. If you are adept (or learn to do so) at QTR, this solution will give you the widest array of possibilities. The IS LK and LLK inks are warmer than OEM K3, and also reportedly warmer than ConeColor inks. You can get IS inks from www.inkjetcarts.us
They are less expnsive than getting them from MIS. Ross Hardy is the owner of inkjetcarts, and is usually available on the phone and helpful.

The look you want can be achieved, but you may currently be limited on how to get there.

Good luck.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "davidkachel" <david@...> wrote:

>
> I put my trust in someone on this list who it turns out, feels no need to keep his word. So here I am right back at zero, except for the fact that I bought a printer and cartridges based on that person's unkept promises.
> 
> I have a spanking new Epson 3800 and a set of refillable ink cartridges for it from Piezography. What I do not have is ink.
> 
> I make monochrome brown tone prints. Not sepia, not warm, not subtle but BROWN! At this point, I will take just about ANY monochrome brown inks anyone here is willing to sell me. Beggars can't be choosers.
> 
> dk
>

On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:02 AM, shileshjani wrote:

> I have not looked at the archives for your definition "brown." However, I looked at the image posted on your website, and crude measurements using color info in PS, I see that your *b values range from approximately 8 in highlights rising to approximately 25 in mid tones, and then drop back down in the deepest shadows. I am not aware of any monotone inkset that can do that for you.

In my original post I specifically said "ANY BROWN". Please stop steering this thread off course.

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, good luck with that.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:

>
> 
> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:02 AM, shileshjani wrote:
> 
> > I have not looked at the archives for your definition "brown." However, I looked at the image posted on your website, and crude measurements using color info in PS, I see that your *b values range from approximately 8 in highlights rising to approximately 25 in mid tones, and then drop back down in the deepest shadows. I am not aware of any monotone inkset that can do that for you.
> 
> In my original post I specifically said "ANY BROWN". Please stop steering this thread off course.
> 
> David Kachel
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

With that kind of attitude, your not going to get much help.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:

>
> 
> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:02 AM, shileshjani wrote:
> 
> > I have not looked at the archives for your definition "brown." However, I looked at the image posted on your website, and crude measurements using color info in PS, I see that your *b values range from approximately 8 in highlights rising to approximately 25 in mid tones, and then drop back down in the deepest shadows. I am not aware of any monotone inkset that can do that for you.
> 
> In my original post I specifically said "ANY BROWN". Please stop steering this thread off course.
> 
> David Kachel
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Was wondering how long this attitude would be endured. 
 
a

--- On Wed, 4/14/10, EdW <edwweaver@...> wrote:


With that kind of attitude, your not going to get much help.


> In my original post I specifically said "ANY BROWN". Please stop steering this thread off course.



      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"shileshjani" <janishilesh@...> wrote:
>
> ... using Image Specialist (IS) K3 compatible inks in the LK and LLK position, 

That's what I'm using -- MIS's retail versions.  My 7800 ink order for 2010 is at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/ (page 4 for the 7800).

I never set up a 3800, but all the K3s are going to be about the same.  At a very minimum, however, one would need to re-linearize.

While I publish my workflows and profiles -- for the printers and inks I use -- that's it.  People on this list who want to go into custom or semi-custom inksets and workflows learn to profile their own with QTR.

MIS has a full range of warm (brownish) carbon: K4 PK, LK, and LLK, UT7 C and LC, C88 EZ warm midtone.  So, size different, off the shelf, warm, glossy-compatible inks, in addition to the Eboni MK.  If one can use QTR and obtain good carts & CISs, there are many different combinations of monotone, 100%, glossy and matte, warm and medium warm, 100% carbon inkset arrangements one can make.  I use these and other inks in a "Photographers Formulary" type of approach to my B&W inkjet printing.  


> with Epson OEM PK.


It does have a higher dmax than MIS PK, but I was a bit worried about a subtle tone or texture (coated v. glop) change in the transitions. Do you see any?


> The paper was Epson Exhibition Fiber.

I have not tried that with the MIS inks.  It sounds like it might be a higher gamut paper than the Crane Museo Silver Rag I'm initially targeting. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

AMEN!  Sounds like he wants someone to wave a magic wand over his
printer!!!!

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of andy
bessette
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 02:22 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Last plea for help. I NEED INKS!

 

  

Was wondering how long this attitude would be endured. 
 
a

--- On Wed, 4/14/10, EdW <edwweaver@yahoo. <mailto:edwweaver%40yahoo.com>
com> wrote:

With that kind of attitude, your not going to get much help.

> In my original post I specifically said "ANY BROWN". Please stop steering
this thread off course.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cripes, with the dude's attitude even I had the perfect solution, I'd just assume leave him hung out to dry. 

Dude, where the *beep* is the gratitude for the people (particularly Shilesh) that *are* trying to offer you something?

Take your darn printer and go home.

> In my original post I specifically said "ANY BROWN". Please stop steering this thread off course.
> 
> David Kachel
> 
>

On Apr 14, 2010, at 2:00 PM, Tom Maugham wrote:

> AMEN! Sounds like he wants someone to wave a magic wand over his
> printer!!!!

No, I just need ink.
However, I apologize to the list for venting my frustration publicly and for my rudeness to those who were trying to be helpful. This whole process has been one snafu after another and I guess I finally just reached my boiling point.
On top of it all, it turns out there was a misunderstanding that has been rectified.


David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Apology accepted at least by me!  After all, photography wouldn't be as much
fun without the occasional frustrations!

 

Good luck David, I hope that your problem is solved.   :-)

 

Tom 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Kachel
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 04:20 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Last plea for help. I NEED INKS!

 

  


On Apr 14, 2010, at 2:00 PM, Tom Maugham wrote:

> AMEN! Sounds like he wants someone to wave a magic wand over his
> printer!!!!

No, I just need ink.
However, I apologize to the list for venting my frustration publicly and for
my rudeness to those who were trying to be helpful. This whole process has
been one snafu after another and I guess I finally just reached my boiling
point.
On top of it all, it turns out there was a misunderstanding that has been
rectified.

David Kachel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Apr 14, 2010, at 3:24 PM, Tom Maugham wrote:

> After all, photography wouldn't be as much
> fun without the occasional frustrations!


Ah! If only they were "occasional"! Tried dealing with HP lately?

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's very funny. I was an IT person for many years dealing with all sorts of
computer hardware and software companies and HP was the absolute best of the
bunch for quality of hardware, price, and quality of service. What happened
to them? I now refuse to have anything to do with HP equipment. I build my
own computers and use an Epson 1280 printer and have managed to reduce my
frustrations to those that I cause myself.

 

Again, good luck!

 

Tom 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Kachel
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 04:28 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Last plea for help. I NEED INKS!

 

  


On Apr 14, 2010, at 3:24 PM, Tom Maugham wrote:

> After all, photography wouldn't be as much
> fun without the occasional frustrations!

Ah! If only they were "occasional"! Tried dealing with HP lately?

David Kachel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Apr 14, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Tom Maugham wrote:

> It's very funny. I was an IT person for many years dealing with all sorts of
> computer hardware and software companies and HP was the absolute best of the
> bunch for quality of hardware, price, and quality of service. What happened
> to them? I now refuse to have anything to do with HP equipment. I build my
> own computers and use an Epson 1280 printer and have managed to reduce my
> frustrations to those that I cause myself.

Don't know what happened. Maybe the bean counters got control.
I told them (HP) this week that I currently own three HP printers and have never owned any other brand for 20 years. All true. Also true is that I won't buy any more HP printers.

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've been using Epsons (1200, 1280, 2000P) and like them very much despite
Epson's not-so-wonderful customer service. I've pretty much solved that
problem by downloading the service manuals and fixing myself what has needed
to be fixed which thankfully has been minimal. Canon has a nice line up now
so perhaps my next printer will be a Canon. Sure won't be an HP!!!

 

Tom 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Kachel
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 04:38 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Last plea for help. I NEED INKS!

 

  


On Apr 14, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Tom Maugham wrote:

> It's very funny. I was an IT person for many years dealing with all sorts
of
> computer hardware and software companies and HP was the absolute best of
the
> bunch for quality of hardware, price, and quality of service. What
happened
> to them? I now refuse to have anything to do with HP equipment. I build my
> own computers and use an Epson 1280 printer and have managed to reduce my
> frustrations to those that I cause myself.

Don't know what happened. Maybe the bean counters got control.
I told them (HP) this week that I currently own three HP printers and have
never owned any other brand for 20 years. All true. Also true is that I
won't buy any more HP printers.

David Kachel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was a Systems Engineer with HP's largest Canadian dealer in the late 80's. That was when HP brought Laserjet technology to the market and ended up owning the business segment. They were very big in the scientific, engineering and technology markets. In fact, that was their core business. HP lab instruments set the standard that others had to hit, as did their pen plotter and engineering workstation technology. 

HP then, was first and foremost a group of engineers and scientists that loved to innovate. That culture came from the two founders, Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard, who got their start building precision instrumentation in a garage. They strove for technical excellence. That was who they were. What they didn't do well was marketing. The running joke was that HP "built the best products that no on knew about". Not a surprise, given their personalities.

I continued to work with HP gear in the 90's, this time managing managing HP technical workstations and mid-range business systems in an oil and gas setting. They were the go-to provider for mission-critical UNIX systems. Their support was legendary, and they delivered.

Over time the founders moved more and more into background roles. Concurrently, HP acquired other businesses, which has the effect of diluting / changing the focus of the company. I recall there being a very serious fight over the decision to purchase Compaq. As I recall, one of the the company founders (I believe the other had passed on) was not in favour of the direction the company was going.

The heart / soul and vision of the HP I knew in the 80's and 90's was Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard. A couple of uber-geeks who made it big because of innovation and excellence. When they were active, that underpinned HP culture and all the company did. I think that today, HP is a big business. The heart / soul and vision of the organization is now "corporate". Not that that has to be bad, but it's almost certainly different.


Terry.

----- "Tom Maugham" <Thomas@...> wrote:

> From: "Tom Maugham" <Thomas@...>
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 14 April, 2010 14:34:20 GMT -06:00 Central America
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Last plea for help. I NEED INKS!
>
> It's very funny. I was an IT person for many years dealing with all
> sorts of
> computer hardware and software companies and HP was the absolute best
> of the
> bunch for quality of hardware, price, and quality of service. What
> happened
> to them? I now refuse to have anything to do with HP equipment.