Digital BW, The Print

So, you haven't tried to analyize 
the Epson inks  (or others)with a Spectrometer to see their make up?

Unless Epson has invented those coatings and their properties have 
never been published, the Spectrometer should be able to show the 
make up.

I'm under the impression that a Spectrometer will tell the contents 
of a sample and at what percentage they are.

Scott




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Scott,
> 
> >Are these inks anything more than carbon, glycerol, and water?
> 
> Yes.  The Epson pigs are coated and probably not available anywhere 
but from
> Epson.  In addition to the coating, the pigments themselves may be 
more
> proprietary pigment than carbon.  The base they use has some 
proprietary
> chemicals in it that are not disclosed in the MSDS.  But, at the 
dilution I
> used, the water and glycerol seems to work.  That mixture is the 
least
> likely to have negative interactions with the Epson base, since 
their base
> is that plus some other materials.
> 
> Even the un-coated pigs MIS uses are probably not pure carbon, even 
though
> the supplier says they are "carbon."  
> 
> >If I know the make up of the ink, I can make it myself.
> 
> I'm not so ambitious as to mill my own.  
> 
> >Your UT-7 clone do not need curves if you just want neutral 
through 
> >warm prints. Just use the Epson sliders in the driver. Correct?
> 
> Yes, the sliders give you some control, but curves give a lot 
more.  The UT7
> curves work reasonably well with the clone inkset described. 
> 
> >The "ink particles" are 0.19 microns. Epson nozzles are 
> >25 microns +- 5 microns.
> 
> Close.  The particles per se are not a problem.  Agglomerations 
are.  The
> quality of the dispersant and other parts of the base are part of 
the trick.
> 
> >Have you made inks from "Scratch"?
> 
> I don't have a mill.  But after that, it's wide open, and filters 
to be sure
> there are no clunkers are available.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> ______________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Scott,
> > 
> > >>I've published on this forum the formula
> > >>for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.
> > 
> > >Can you point me to that post?
> > 
> > I posted this on 7/19/04 with the Subject, "UltraChrome-based 
> variable-tone
> > inkset":  
> > 
> > 
> > "This is my 6-14 formula for the UC-VT (for the 2200) I recently 
> tested.  It
> > is very similar in its behavior to UT7, but the formulas are 
> different.
> > With sliders set to 0, the 50% patch of an EEM print had C,M,Y 
> = .60, .61,
> > .60.
> > 
> > "The base:  4 parts distilled water and 3 parts glycerol.  (I 
used 
> Kic
> > technical grade.)
> > 
> > "(In the past, I've had trouble finding a base that worked well 
> with the UC
> > inks.  The simple base I used for this inkset does the job and 
> anyone can
> > make it.)
> > 
> > "Blue used in mixing:  50% UC M, 50% UC C.
> > 
> > "K position:  I prefer Eboni.  Epson UC matte black would also 
work.
> > 
> > "LK position:  UC LK, no changes.
> > 
> > "C position:  70% UC PK, 30% UC LK.
> > 
> > "LC position:  52% UC LK, 48% base.
> > 
> > "M position:  30% blue, 40% LK, 30% PK.
> > 
> > "LM position:  30% LK, 10% blue, 60% base.
> > 
> > "Y position:  88% LC, 7% Y, 5% M.
> > 
> > "This is not necessarily a final formula, but it's close and 
> works.  I had
> > no clogging or other problems with these experimental inksets.  
> (Nor do I
> > have clogging problems with MIS inksets.)"
> > 
> > >And how did you come to a starting point?
> > 
> > I'm not sure what you're asking here.
> > 
> > >I've been thinking of making inks myself.
> > >My wife is a chemist and I'm sure we could do it.
> > 
> > I'm sure most on this list could make the above.  It thought that 
a 
> small
> > ink seller might want to take on this inkset for those who have a 
> prejudice
> > against third-party inks or prefer coated pigs.  But, no one has 
> picked it
> > up.
> > 
> > Note that I also made one based on the Epson Archival inkset that 
I 
> thought
> > might have more marketing potential for an ink seller.  However, 
in 
> my
> > initial fade testing the UC-based version did better than the 
Epson 
> Archival
> > version.  (The Epson Archival black is about like the old MIS VM 
> black in
> > fading.  I think it is actually a hybrid pigment-dye ink -- not 
in 
> the same
> > league with the current MIS and Epson matte and photo blacks.)
> > 
> > Have fun.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com 
> > ___________________________________
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > Ben,
> > > 
> > > >...wondering if anyone ... wanted to comment on issues like 
> > > >lightfastness, ...
> > > 
> > > I concluded several years ago that I had to do my own testing.  
> So, 
> > I made a
> > > fluorescent light fader (cheap but probably about as good as 
> any), 
> > and
> > > started doing carefully-controlled comparison tests.  (I'll 
leave 
> > the
> > > predictions of years of display to Wilhelm and RIT.)  That is 
> what 
> > convinced
> > > me to switch from Piezo to MIS inks.  The cheaper MIS inks were 
> more
> > > lightfast.
> > > 
> > > Now both companies have new and very lightfast pigments.  I 
still 
> > do some
> > > testing, however, to see if anything better comes around and 
even 
> > to explore
> > > non-inkset sources of pigments.  
> > > 
> > > The bottom line is that the MIS UltraTone family of pigments 
has 
> > beat every
> > > other inkset I've tested, including the Epson Archival 
pigments.  
> > The carbon
> > > pigments seem to be the very best in terms of their retaining 
the 
> > visual
> > > density after lots of light exposure.  The carbon does warm up 
a 
> > bit,
> > > however.  I think the amount of warming is acceptable and not 
> > unlike what we
> > > see with other traditional B&W media.
> > > 
> > > Last year the magenta (which is in the cool and neutral inks) 
was 
> > the
> > > relative weakling.  So, at that time I recommended pure carbon, 
> > like the MIS
> > > EZ-Warm, for the best lightfastness.  (For archival, dark 
storage 
> > the paper
> > > base and storage conditions are the limiting factors, not the 
> > pigments.)
> > > Now the latest formulations have substituted a new pigment for 
> the 
> > magenta.
> > > Because of this, the new UT neutral inks are almost as 
lightfast 
> as 
> > the
> > > carbon.
> > > 
> > > Of course, I may not be totally un-biased here.  MIS's business 
> > model is
> > > such that it simply produces what the market wants.  It does 
not 
> do 
> > its own
> > > B&W inkset designs, but it is an expert in finding good inks 
that 
> > act as the
> > > inputs for the B&W inksets.  As a practical matter, during the 
> last 
> > few
> > > years, the B&W inksets have been formulations that I've come up 
> > with.  So,
> > > while I'm independent and do this for my own non-monetary 
> purposes, 
> > one
> > > could argue that I may have a bias toward the inksets I 
> > formulated.  On the
> > > other hand, I formulated them in response to my fade tests, and 
> my 
> > goal is
> > > to get the medium to the point where it is accepted by 
collectors 
> > as equal
> > > to the silver print.  Additionally, I've published on this 
forum 
> > the formula
> > > for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.  I also published the 
> fade 
> > test
> > > results, and the UC-based UT7 did great in their delta e, but 
not 
> > as well as
> > > the MIS inks in density reduction (fading).
> > > 
> > > Hope this helps.
> > > 
> > > Paul
> > > www.PaulRoark.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
> wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages 
> to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital 
> B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group 
> Owner and
> > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
> section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE 
> PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU
> > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
> EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
PROFITS,
> > GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
> THE  "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN 
ADVISED 
> OF THE
> > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
> INABILITY
> > TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
> ACCESS TO OR
> > ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
> CONDUCT OF ANY
> > THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
> OTHER
> > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED 
OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links