Digital BW, The Print

Dear Members,

I wanted to write in my capacity as list moderator to remind everyone 
of the purpose and nature of this list and share some concerns I have.

In late July of 2001 Antonis Ricos and I started the list to fill 
what we saw as a void at the time. A list devoted solely to the 
subject of producing B&W photographic prints from digital files that 
had no connection to any manufacturer or supplier of products in that 
market.

I was rather nervous thinking that there was a good chance no one 
would be interested and that we were wasting our time. Now almost 2 
years, 30,442 posts, and 2,915 members later I guess my concerns were 
unfounded.

Antonis and I wrote up some basic guidelines for the group when we 
started and these are e-mailed to each new member when they join. In 
addition key issues are attached to the bottom of every post. I am 
going to add the guidelines and some suggestions on posting protocol 
from Mark Tucker to the end of this message and ask that everyone 
check them out again.

It is very important to us that this list remains a cordial and 
friendly list. In particular the list should be a safe and 
comfortable place for new comers, not just to the topic but to 
Internet discussion groups, to post their questions and participate 
without fear of a hostile reception. This should also be an 
interesting and comfortable place for experienced users to post. 
Nothing hurts a list more than to have the "old pros" drop out in 
disgust or boredom.

It still amazes me how hot tempers can flair over the subject of 
digital B&W printing. I firmly believe that the membership by a very 
vast majority lives up to and supports the ideal of a peaceful, 
polite list. Unfortunately there occassionally seems to be a tiny 
number that does not share that goal or are oblivious to it.

While direct attacks and flames may result in a person being 
temporarily or permanently barred from the list, there are gray areas 
where posts are not direct attacks but tread a very fine line. These 
are the hardest for the moderators to deal with. The posted remarks 
may not strictly violate the group guidelines on flames but fall far 
short of the goal of maintaining a pleasant atmosphere. I would 
really like people to stop and think before they post some biting bit 
of sarcasm just what their intent may be. If your remarks are made in 
a tone meant solely to cause someone else grief or embarrassment, 
then please rephrase what you want to say. If you are here looking 
for a platform to practice the art of debate for the joy of argument, 
please take it somewhere else.

On the other hand I do not expect the posts to turn into some insipid 
series of vacuous remarks. The difference is hard to define but my 
meaning should be clear. If anyone doesn't understand or is at all 
unclear about what I mean, then let's have a dialogue on or off list.

My second concern is that we too often see a series of posts that at 
some point amount to nothing more than, "I'm right and you're 
wrong.", "No I'm right, you're wrong." As fascinating as it can be 
for the participants, it is deadly dull stuff for the membership at 
large. I would hope that we could all realize that we will have 
differences of opinion on many matters and learn to drop the 
arguments when they reach this stage. You really don't have to have 
the last word. Honest.

My third concern is that we see too many long threads that are 
largely or totally off the topic of this list. This type of thing can 
really mess up a list and make the information people seek very 
difficult to find. There has to be an Internet list for every 
conceivable topic at this point, so if your interest at the moment is 
not digital B&W printing then please go find an appropriate list to 
post on. We really need the group to be self-moderating in this area, 
as Antonis and I do not follow every thread.

Time and other constraints sometimes pull Antonis and myself away 
from the list for short or long periods of time. If you feel that 
something inappropriate is going on, please e-mail one or both of us 
off-list and let us know.

Thanks to all of you who have contributed to this list and shared 
your knowledge and expertise. What is here is your creation. Good job!

Martin Wesley



Group Guidelines:

Welcome to Digital B&W, The Print.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

This forum was started in response to a strong desire by many people 
to make high quality digital B&W prints and a need for a central 
place to post and find information. To facilitate the free flow of 
this information we established this forum with no ties to any 
commercial enterprise.

The hope is that this will become a place where all of the
current and future techniques for making digital B&W prints will be
discussed, evaluated, disseminated, compared, critiqued, reviewed,
debated and refined in a dynamic exchange of ideas and information.

You are invited to participate and share your knowledge. There are 
many people out there who want to know how to make digital B&W 
prints. Please ask. That's a primary reason the forum is here.

Please visit group's homepage and visit regularly. In a frame on the 
left hand side of the page you will find several links to a range of 
resources that you can click on.

"Files" will take you to several file folders containing a variety of 
information. This includes selected messages from the list that have 
been placed here for easy reference, a database on paper for inkjet 
printing, files that are linked to a specific message to illustrate 
the subject, etc. Please explore these folders and their sub-folders.

"Photos" includes images that were posted in connection to a specific 
message to demonstrate something graphically that is not easily 
described in words.

"Bookmarks" include links to suppliers of supplies, other related 
user groups and photographers actively using digital techniques in 
there workflow to produce a B&W print.

"Database" contains some of the information in the main paper 
database in "Files"

"Polls" contains current questions that are being asked in order to 
better determine users wants and needs.

The "Search Archive" tool is located on the homepage also. This is a 
great place to start if you have a specific question. Type in a key 
word and click the "Search Archive" button. A list on messages 
containing the word or words in your search will be listed. As the 
archive grows the chances of finding an answer to your question gets 
better all the time.

Please visit the homepage and these resource pages regularly. If you 
have any information or files you would like to add to these resource 
areas please let us know.

Some guidelines on using this forum:

This is an unmoderated forum and no one is checking messages before
they are posted. It is expected that the members of the forum
moderate the forum and themselves. Please stay on topics relating to 
making monochrome prints using digital devices and techniques.

If you have not done so already, please read the Yahoo! Groups Terms
of Service These cover key issues regarding posting on this forum and
other Yahoo locations.

Moderation of the forum by the users includes an expectation of basic
manners and good taste. While digital B&W printing would seem like a
very mild topic to most, those of us with experience know that people
can become very impassioned over their art, ideas, and choice of
materials. Open and candid discussion is encouraged. However, 
courtesy must prevail and it is expected that exchanges should not 
deteriorate into personal insults, harassment, etc. If they should, 
intervention will be taken as necessary.

No SPAM please. Spamming will be grounds for being barred from the
forum.

Postings by commercial ventures or their representatives to promote
their products for digital B&W printing are welcome and encouraged
provided they follow the guidelines below:

1. Only post announcements of products relating to making B&W prints 
using a digital device.
 
2. If you want to use this forum as a place to announce or promote 
your product, it is expected that you reciprocate and promote the 
forum by placing a link to this forum on your website. This should be 
an obvious win-win situation.

3. If you promote your products here, you are expected to be a 
regular participant on the forum and respond to questions regarding 
the products and/or services by other forum users.

4. Please limit purely promotional posts to roughly once a month. The 
forum should not become a string of advertisements.

To users that are affiliated with a company or commercial operation 
involved in digital printing, we ask that you please indicate so on 
all your postings to this forum. This is requested in order to 
maintain the level of candid discussion we all desire.

Martin Wesley
Welcome to Digital B&W, The Print.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint


A post from Mark Tucker on posting protocol:

From:  "Mark Tucker" <mark@...>
Date:  Wed Aug 22, 2001  8:46 am
Subject:  Posting Protocol Request



This list has much potential. I'm shocked at the amount of 
volume so far. I will say, in addition, that abiding by some small 
details can REALLY help the quality of the list. These are merely 
suggestions:

a) If you complete the Yahoo Profile, by following Antonis' 
instructions that were posted yesterday, (Message #1013, see below)
your Full Name will show up on the posts, rather than the truncated
email address. This is useful to identify people more quickly.
Sometimes, someone's email address will have no relation to the first
few characters of their email address.
 
[see text file under Files>List-related files].

b) At the bottom of your post, please sign your full name. There 
are many Bills, and Pauls, and Mikes, and Marks out there; with 
so many posts flying around, it's easy to get people confused. 
Since we're not discussing personal indiscretions, or interns, or 
jailtime, there's no real reason to be anonymous.

c) I also find it useful to see someone's personal URL posted at 
the bottom of the post, along with their full name. It gives so 
much more perspective and depth into someone's question or 
remarks, when you can then go and view their website and their 
images. Obviously, not everyone will have this, but if you do, why 
not post it. An additional option would be to post your Country 
also, because that might affect how someone might reply to you, 
especially if you're looking for paper sources, distribution, 
companies, etc.

d) I have no idea how to address the whole "thread name" thing. 
But I think I have missed some good stuff because I've NOT 
clicked and read something, because the Header Name didn't 
give an indication that it was something I'd be interested in. But 
I've been surprised sometimes, when I've clicked anyway, and 
then found good stuff, but also that it was unrelated to the Thread 
Name. I don't have a solution for all this. I know some people like 
to sort them and keep the thread name the same, but then if the 
content changes, it seems to invalidate this approach.

e) If all you're posting is a simple "Thank you" to a person, it 
might be better to post it offlist. Just use the pulldown menu on 
the website, and reply only to the individual, rather than to the 
whole group. Again, nothing wrong with a sincere thank you, but 
it's a lot of bandwidth flying around when it could be done more 
efficiently by sending it directly to the one person that you're 
thanking.

These are just some suggestions on how to improve the quality 
of this list.

-Mark Tucker