Yamaha DTXpress/DTXplorer/DTXtreme

hi all,

can anyone help me with this?

i found an old MIDI-controller keyboard in the basement of my 
building, and i thought i could maybe use it to access all of the 
cool "GM tone generator" sounds that are listed in the manual (p. 
72).  so, i went out & bought a MIDI cable, plugged the keyboard into 
the back of my DTXpress module, switched the "host select" switch to 
MIDI, & tried to play.  

i was pleased to hear a lovely piano sound coming through my 
headphones, but i can't for the life of me figure out to use this set 
up (keyboard + module) to produce any other sounds... what do i do?  

i have never worked with MIDI before, so any basic assistance would 
be appreciated!

thanks,
scott

Scott:

MIDI can be a bit overwhelming at first, but if you continue to play
around you'll find you can do some amazing stuff. In your situation, the
way you would get more voices is to use the MIDI keyboard to switch
"patches" on the module. Unfortunately, the process to do this will be
specific to your keyboard.

In most cases, there will be some "patch" buttons on the front of the
keyboard that will send an instruction tothe module to change the voice
the module sounds when it receives MIDI data from your keyboard. If
you're getting the piano sound, then that usually means you are
ransmitting on MIDI channel 1, and the module is using voice #1 (piano)
to play those MIDI notes. If you can change MIDI transmit channels on the
keyboard to Channel 10, you will hear drum sounds as you press the MIDI
keys.

I would suggest you do some GOOGLE searches on the make and model of
keyboard to see if you can find some online documentation that can help
find ways to change midi voices.

Also, if you give us an idea of what it is exactly you're trying to
accomplish (recording? live performance? playing MIDI sequences?), we
might be able to give a more focussed response.. :)

Vern

--
Vern Graner CNE/CNA/SSE     | "If the network is down, then you're
Senior Systems Engineer     | obviously incompetent so why are we
Texas Information Services  | paying you? Of course, if the network
vern@... www.txis.com  | is up, then we obviously don't need
Cell 507-7851 Desk 328-8947 | you, so why are we paying you?" VLG



sjr41 said:

> hi all,
>
> can anyone help me with this?
>
> i found an old MIDI-controller keyboard in the basement of my
> building, and i thought i could maybe use it to access all of the
> cool "GM tone generator" sounds that are listed in the manual (p.
> 72).  so, i went out & bought a MIDI cable, plugged the keyboard into
> the back of my DTXpress module, switched the "host select" switch to
> MIDI, & tried to play.
>
> i was pleased to hear a lovely piano sound coming through my
> headphones, but i can't for the life of me figure out to use this set
> up (keyboard + module) to produce any other sounds... what do i do?
>
> i have never worked with MIDI before, so any basic assistance would
> be appreciated!
>
> thanks,
> scott
>
>
>
> Community email addresses:
>   Post message: DTXpress@onelist.com
>   Subscribe:    DTXpress-subscribe@onelist.com
>   Unsubscribe:  DTXpress-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>   List owner:   DTXpress-owner@onelist.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>   http://www.onelist.com/community/DTXpress
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

hi vern,

thanks for the help.  unfortunately, this keyboard is a very old, 
very basic one -- a Fatar TB49 (48 keys).  It has only a power 
switch, an AC jack, & a MIDI out jack -- no other buttons of any 
kind.  I did a google search to see what I could find out, but i 
couldnt find a single reference to that model -- but in any case, it 
is just a very basic no-frils MIDI controller keyboard, & there seems 
to be no way to 'change the channel' like you suggest.

all i was hoping for is to use it as a basic synth (with piano, 
organ, & other MIDI sounds) as a songwriting/recording tool.  i am 
primarily a drummer, but i also play some guitar & bass, & i'd like 
to get better at playing keyboards as well.  i am not (currently) 
looking to do anything with sequencers or pre-programmed loops, etc., 
or to use it live -- just to have a keyboard that i can play with in 
my home studio (i have the free version of ProTools & an analog 4-
track cassette recorder).  

so, when i saw that someone in my building was throwing away a 
perfectly functional MIDI controller, i grabbed it & plugged it in to 
the module, but that's pretty much the extent of my MIDI experience --
which is why i have no idea how to work this stuff.

however, after my last post, i played around a little further, 
thinking that since i at least had the piano sound, i would check out 
some of the preset songs & see if i could play along.  i discovered 
that selecting CERTAIN songs actually changed the sounds produced by 
the keyboard (even if the song wasn't playing).  examples included:  
#74 "shuffle 2" & #66 "funk 3" but there were several others.  these 
sounds were very cool, & definitely in line with what i was hoping to 
be able to do -- but only a few song settings did this, & the others 
all had the same piano sound.  also, i couldnt figure out how to 
alter or adjust the properties of the new sounds, which would have 
been useful & fun if possible.

basically, i'd really like to use this setup to mess around with all 
of the groovy-sounding sounds listed in the GM Keyboard Voice List on 
p. 72 of the manual.  it would also be fun to trigger drum (or other 
built-in) sounds from the keyboard controller, but that is less of a 
priority, as i am more interested in tone generation w/this thing.

sorry for the long post -- i hope this makes it easier for you (& 
anyone else in the group) to help me make noise!

thanks,
scott


--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Vernon Graner" <vern@t...> wrote:
> Scott:
> 
> MIDI can be a bit overwhelming at first, but if you continue to play
> around you'll find you can do some amazing stuff. In your 
situation, the
> way you would get more voices is to use the MIDI keyboard to switch
> "patches" on the module. Unfortunately, the process to do this will 
be
> specific to your keyboard.
> 
> In most cases, there will be some "patch" buttons on the front of 
the
> keyboard that will send an instruction tothe module to change the 
voice
> the module sounds when it receives MIDI data from your keyboard. If
> you're getting the piano sound, then that usually means you are
> ransmitting on MIDI channel 1, and the module is using voice #1 
(piano)
> to play those MIDI notes. If you can change MIDI transmit channels 
on the
> keyboard to Channel 10, you will hear drum sounds as you press the 
MIDI
> keys.
> 
> I would suggest you do some GOOGLE searches on the make and model of
> keyboard to see if you can find some online documentation that can 
help
> find ways to change midi voices.
> 
> Also, if you give us an idea of what it is exactly you're trying to
> accomplish (recording? live performance? playing MIDI sequences?), 
we
> might be able to give a more focussed response.. :)
> 
> Vern
> 
> --
> Vern Graner CNE/CNA/SSE     | "If the network is down, then you're
> Senior Systems Engineer     | obviously incompetent so why are we
> Texas Information Services  | paying you? Of course, if the network
> vern@t... www.txis.com  | is up, then we obviously don't need
> Cell 507-7851 Desk 328-8947 | you, so why are we paying you?" VLG
> 
> 
> 
> sjr41 said:
> > hi all,
> >
> > can anyone help me with this?
> >
> > i found an old MIDI-controller keyboard in the basement of my
> > building, and i thought i could maybe use it to access all of the
> > cool "GM tone generator" sounds that are listed in the manual (p.
> > 72).  so, i went out & bought a MIDI cable, plugged the keyboard 
into
> > the back of my DTXpress module, switched the "host select" switch 
to
> > MIDI, & tried to play.
> >
> > i was pleased to hear a lovely piano sound coming through my
> > headphones, but i can't for the life of me figure out to use this 
set
> > up (keyboard + module) to produce any other sounds... what do i 
do?
> >
> > i have never worked with MIDI before, so any basic assistance 
would
> > be appreciated!
> >
> > thanks,
> > scott
> >
> >
> >
> > Community email addresses:
> >   Post message: DTXpress@onelist.com
> >   Subscribe:    DTXpress-subscribe@onelist.com
> >   Unsubscribe:  DTXpress-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> >   List owner:   DTXpress-owner@onelist.com
> >
> > Shortcut URL to this page:
> >   http://www.onelist.com/community/DTXpress
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

> thanks for the help.  unfortunately, this keyboard is a very old,
> very basic one -- a Fatar TB49 (48 keys).  

I had exactly this model....  It was a good one for data entry, real time or 
not.  It has absolutely nothing else in there.  Anything else you're looking 
for would be magic or the holy grail...

Now that I've shot your hopes down, here's what you can do.  Use a 
synthesizer, sound module, or a virtual synth on the computer and use the 
keyboard to trigger that.

Stephanie

sjr41 said:
> I did a google search to see what I could find out, but i
> couldnt find a single reference to that model

Hmmm weird, I did a search and found the online site that sells/supports
the keyboard here:

http://studiologic.net/fatar-menu.htm

and they have a link to PDF versions of the FATAR manuals here:

http://www.musicindustries.com/manuals/#studiologicfatarmanuals

However, it appears that you are correct on the limits of the FB49 since
the "manual" (I hardly consider one sheet of paper that says "this is the
power jack" to be a manual!) does not show any way to change the MIDI
transmit channel. Yet they have the juevos to call this thing "The finest
master keyboard controller in the world". Yeaaaah. Right. :P

Anyway, it looks like it does give you some basic MIDI capability, and
the price was perfect! :)

> all i was hoping for is to use it as a basic synth (with piano,
> organ, & other MIDI sounds) as a songwriting/recording tool.
--snip--
>(i have the free version of ProTools & an analog 4-
> track cassette recorder).

Well, you can use it as a *very* basic MIDI source, and then use some
MIDI tools to associate an instrument with the MIDI notes. For example,
you could have ProTools accept the MIDI input on Channel 1 and then have
it retransmit it to channel 10. There are many featuers you can take
advantage of by using software to overcome the limits of this keybaord.

> i discovered
> that selecting CERTAIN songs actually changed the sounds produced by
> the keyboard (even if the song wasn't playing).

This is normal since certain songs assign a different patch to respond to
MIID channel 1. This is what you *should* be able to do from your
keyboard.

> also, i couldnt figure out how to
> alter or adjust the properties of the new sounds, which would have
> been useful & fun if possible.

In actuality, you might be better server finding a *real* MIDI controller
keybaord since some of the basic models are very inexpensive now. I use
this one:

http://www.m-audio.net/support/manuals/pdf/Key49_Manual.pdf

It can be had for about US $100.00 and sometimes cheaper used on Ebay. It
has velocity sensitivity and just about every MIDI command can be sent
from it. It also comes bundled with some decent software and has a USB
connection allowing it to double as a USB MIDI interface for other gear
if you don't have a MIDI interface for your PC/MAC already.

> sorry for the long post -- i hope this makes it easier for you (&
> anyone else in the group) to help me make noise!

No problem, we're all here because we all have a common interest in Music
and we hope to make everyone feel welcome. :)

Vern

-- 
Vern Graner CNE/CNA/SSE     | "If the network is down, then you're
Senior Systems Engineer     | obviously incompetent so why are we
Texas Information Services  | paying you? Of course, if the network
vern@... www.txis.com  | is up, then we obviously don't need
Cell 507-7851 Desk 328-8947 | you, so why are we paying you?" VLG

thanks again, vern.

i definitely plan to *eventually* try to plug the keyboard into my 
computer & see what it can do there, but i'm not sure what software i 
would need, etc. (& i would love your input on all of that -- like i 
say, i know about drums, but all this technology frightens & confuses 
me).  plus i am not really in a position to be spending much cash on 
this little MIDI project, so...

for the moment, what i'd really like is -- if possible -- just to 
plug this (admittedly very basic & pathetic) keyboard into the back 
of the DTXpress module, plug my headphones in the front (or connect 
it to my mixer, etc), and just play the thing when i want a change of 
pace from the drums, have an idea for a song, etc.

i can do that now & get that lovely piano sound & the other ones that 
are associated with those certain preset songs, but what i'd like is 
to be able to access the "GM keyboard" sounds listed on p. 72 of the 
manual -- all those guitars & basses & horns, etc. -- i mean, they're 
in there somewhere, right?  how can i trigger them with this 
keyboard?  is that possible?  i figure the piano sound has to come 
from *somewhere* in there, and that if i can trigger that i *must* be 
able to trigger the others...

if so, i would love it if you or anyone else in the group could give 
me a little step-by-step instruction on how to.  if not, then we can 
talk about plugging in to my PC, etc.

maybe the problem is that i just don't know enought about how this 
stuff works -- when you said "This is normal since certain songs 
assign a different patch to respond to MIID channel 1,"  i have to 
say that i am not clear on the definition of a "patch," just like i 
had no clue about the whole "channel" thing until you explained it, 
so it would be great if you could fill me in on that as well.

also, if anyone knows any good websites that have this type of "MIDI-
for-drummers" how-to info on them, please pass them on.

thanks -- this group rocks!
scott



--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Vernon Graner" <vern@t...> wrote:
> sjr41 said:
> > I did a google search to see what I could find out, but i
> > couldnt find a single reference to that model
> 
> Hmmm weird, I did a search and found the online site that 
sells/supports
> the keyboard here:
> 
> http://studiologic.net/fatar-menu.htm
> 
> and they have a link to PDF versions of the FATAR manuals here:
> 
> http://www.musicindustries.com/manuals/#studiologicfatarmanuals
> 
> However, it appears that you are correct on the limits of the FB49 
since
> the "manual" (I hardly consider one sheet of paper that says "this 
is the
> power jack" to be a manual!) does not show any way to change the 
MIDI
> transmit channel. Yet they have the juevos to call this thing "The 
finest
> master keyboard controller in the world". Yeaaaah. Right. :P
> 
> Anyway, it looks like it does give you some basic MIDI capability, 
and
> the price was perfect! :)
> 
> > all i was hoping for is to use it as a basic synth (with piano,
> > organ, & other MIDI sounds) as a songwriting/recording tool.
> --snip--
> >(i have the free version of ProTools & an analog 4-
> > track cassette recorder).
> 
> Well, you can use it as a *very* basic MIDI source, and then use 
some
> MIDI tools to associate an instrument with the MIDI notes. For 
example,
> you could have ProTools accept the MIDI input on Channel 1 and then 
have
> it retransmit it to channel 10. There are many featuers you can take
> advantage of by using software to overcome the limits of this 
keybaord.
> 
> > i discovered
> > that selecting CERTAIN songs actually changed the sounds produced 
by
> > the keyboard (even if the song wasn't playing).
> 
> This is normal since certain songs assign a different patch to 
respond to
> MIID channel 1. This is what you *should* be able to do from your
> keyboard.
> 
> > also, i couldnt figure out how to
> > alter or adjust the properties of the new sounds, which would have
> > been useful & fun if possible.
> 
> In actuality, you might be better server finding a *real* MIDI 
controller
> keybaord since some of the basic models are very inexpensive now. I 
use
> this one:
> 
> http://www.m-audio.net/support/manuals/pdf/Key49_Manual.pdf
> 
> It can be had for about US $100.00 and sometimes cheaper used on 
Ebay. It
> has velocity sensitivity and just about every MIDI command can be 
sent
> from it. It also comes bundled with some decent software and has a 
USB
> connection allowing it to double as a USB MIDI interface for other 
gear
> if you don't have a MIDI interface for your PC/MAC already.
> 
> > sorry for the long post -- i hope this makes it easier for you (&
> > anyone else in the group) to help me make noise!
> 
> No problem, we're all here because we all have a common interest in 
Music

> and we hope to make everyone feel welcome. :)
> 
> Vern
> 
> -- 
> Vern Graner CNE/CNA/SSE     | "If the network is down, then you're
> Senior Systems Engineer     | obviously incompetent so why are we
> Texas Information Services  | paying you? Of course, if the network
> vern@t... www.txis.com  | is up, then we obviously don't need
> Cell 507-7851 Desk 328-8947 | you, so why are we paying you?" VLG

Just a quick primer:

MIDI is transmitted as data from a MIDI transmitter to a MIDI receiver.
The MIDI transmitter (keyboard, drum pad etc) only sends information
about the type of trigger you have created. The MIDI receiver (sound
module) is what actually makes a sound. A typical message from a MIDI
keyboard to a MIDI sound module might look like this:

-Start playing note #C4 with a velocity (loudness) of 127 (triple forte).
-Stop playing note #C4

These "Note On" and "Note Off" messages make up the bulk of the basic
communication from a MIDI transmitter to a MIDI receiver. Since we only
have one MIDI cable between the transmitter and what may very well be
more than one receiver, we need some way to differentiate the notes so
that the appropriate instrument sounds the correct notes (i.e. Cello
notes do not get played by the French horns). In order to do this, you
use MIDI channels.

For example, you could set the MIDI tone module that had a French Horn
sound to channel 1 and the MIDI sound module with the Cello to MIDI
channel 2. This way, each module would only respond to note data on the
channel to which it was listening.

In the above example, we have a MIDI module listening on MIDI channel 1
and any note on or off data it receives will be played as a French Horn.
As you can imagine, a MIDI module that simply played the sound of a
French Horn, and nothing else, would be a rather expensive (and wasteful)
use of space and equipment. So, manufacturers created MIDI modules that
have the ability to play different sounds when responding to MIDI note
data. These different  sounds are called "patches".

So, when configuring a MIDI module, I would set it to receive on a
specific channel, and then I would assign a "voice" (or patch) to that
channel. Unless it is told otherwise (by a patch change command) all note
data received will be voiced with the sound assigned. This makes for a
very flexible environment since if you needed a harpsichord during the
chorus of a song, and a piano during the verses, you would simply send a
patch change to the module and it would change its voices. With a
DTXpress module, these patches are call "Kits", so if you send patch
change data to the module, it will change drum kits.

Also, the DTXpress module can receive MIDI data on more than one channel.
The default configuration is to have it receive on Channel 10 for all
drum sounds and channel 1 for piano. If you had a keyboard that would
allow you to change MIDI transmit channels, you would find that changing
the MIDI transmit channel of your keyboard to MIDI channel 10 would
result in your being able to make all sorts of Drum sounds by pressing
the keyboard keys.

This of course is a VERY basic description of all the things that you can
do with MIDI and there are a LOT of other things MIDI can do (i.e.
aftertouch, SYSEX data, etc.) that you may see mentioned. If you're
curious, just ask as this group is very good at providing useful
responses. Hope this helps :)

Vern

--
Vern Graner CNE/CNA/SSE     | "If the network is down, then you're
Senior Systems Engineer     | obviously incompetent so why are we
Texas Information Services  | paying you? Of course, if the network
vern@... www.txis.com  | is up, then we obviously don't need
Cell 507-7851 Desk 328-8947 | you, so why are we paying you?" VLG



sjr41 said:

> thanks again, vern.
>
> i definitely plan to *eventually* try to plug the keyboard into my
> computer & see what it can do there, but i'm not sure what software i
> would need, etc. (& i would love your input on all of that -- like i
> say, i know about drums, but all this technology frightens & confuses
> me).  plus i am not really in a position to be spending much cash on
> this little MIDI project, so...
>
> for the moment, what i'd really like is -- if possible -- just to
> plug this (admittedly very basic & pathetic) keyboard into the back
> of the DTXpress module, plug my headphones in the front (or connect
> it to my mixer, etc), and just play the thing when i want a change of
> pace from the drums, have an idea for a song, etc.
>
> i can do that now & get that lovely piano sound & the other ones that
> are associated with those certain preset songs, but what i'd like is
> to be able to access the "GM keyboard" sounds listed on p. 72 of the
> manual -- all those guitars & basses & horns, etc. -- i mean, they're
> in there somewhere, right?  how can i trigger them with this
> keyboard?  is that possible?  i figure the piano sound has to come
> from *somewhere* in there, and that if i can trigger that i *must* be
> able to trigger the others...
>
> if so, i would love it if you or anyone else in the group could give
> me a little step-by-step instruction on how to.  if not, then we can
> talk about plugging in to my PC, etc.
>
> maybe the problem is that i just don't know enought about how this
> stuff works -- when you said "This is normal since certain songs
> assign a different patch to respond to MIID channel 1,"  i have to
> say that i am not clear on the definition of a "patch," just like i
> had no clue about the whole "channel" thing until you explained it,
> so it would be great if you could fill me in on that as well.
>
> also, if anyone knows any good websites that have this type of "MIDI-
> for-drummers" how-to info on them, please pass them on.
>
> thanks -- this group rocks!
> scott
>
>
>
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Vernon Graner" <vern@t...> wrote:
>> sjr41 said:
>> > I did a google search to see what I could find out, but i
>> > couldnt find a single reference to that model
>>
>> Hmmm weird, I did a search and found the online site that
> sells/supports
>> the keyboard here:
>>
>> http://studiologic.net/fatar-menu.htm
>>
>> and they have a link to PDF versions of the FATAR manuals here:
>>
>> http://www.musicindustries.com/manuals/#studiologicfatarmanuals
>>
>> However, it appears that you are correct on the limits of the FB49
> since
>> the "manual" (I hardly consider one sheet of paper that says "this
> is the
>> power jack" to be a manual!) does not show any way to change the
> MIDI
>> transmit channel. Yet they have the juevos to call this thing "The
> finest
>> master keyboard controller in the world". Yeaaaah. Right. :P
>>
>> Anyway, it looks like it does give you some basic MIDI capability,
> and
>> the price was perfect! :)
>>
>> > all i was hoping for is to use it as a basic synth (with piano,
>> > organ, & other MIDI sounds) as a songwriting/recording tool.
>> --snip--
>> >(i have the free version of ProTools & an analog 4-
>> > track cassette recorder).
>>
>> Well, you can use it as a *very* basic MIDI source, and then use
> some
>> MIDI tools to associate an instrument with the MIDI notes. For
> example,
>> you could have ProTools accept the MIDI input on Channel 1 and then
> have
>> it retransmit it to channel 10. There are many featuers you can take
>> advantage of by using software to overcome the limits of this
> keybaord.
>>
>> > i discovered
>> > that selecting CERTAIN songs actually changed the sounds produced
> by
>> > the keyboard (even if the song wasn't playing).
>>
>> This is normal since certain songs assign a different patch to
> respond to
>> MIID channel 1. This is what you *should* be able to do from your
>> keyboard.
>>
>> > also, i couldnt figure out how to
>> > alter or adjust the properties of the new sounds, which would have
>> > been useful & fun if possible.
>>
>> In actuality, you might be better server finding a *real* MIDI
> controller
>> keybaord since some of the basic models are very inexpensive now. I
> use
>> this one:
>>
>> http://www.m-audio.net/support/manuals/pdf/Key49_Manual.pdf
>>
>> It can be had for about US $100.00 and sometimes cheaper used on
> Ebay. It
>> has velocity sensitivity and just about every MIDI command can be
> sent
>> from it. It also comes bundled with some decent software and has a
> USB
>> connection allowing it to double as a USB MIDI interface for other
> gear
>> if you don't have a MIDI interface for your PC/MAC already.
>>
>> > sorry for the long post -- i hope this makes it easier for you (&
>> > anyone else in the group) to help me make noise!
>>
>> No problem, we're all here because we all have a common interest in
> Music
>> and we hope to make everyone feel welcome. :)
>>
>> Vern
>>
>> --
>> Vern Graner CNE/CNA/SSE     | "If the network is down, then you're
>> Senior Systems Engineer     | obviously incompetent so why are we
>> Texas Information Services  | paying you? Of course, if the network
>> vern@t... www.txis.com  | is up, then we obviously don't need
>> Cell 507-7851 Desk 328-8947 | you, so why are we paying you?" VLG
>
>
>
> Community email addresses:
>   Post message: DTXpress@onelist.com
>   Subscribe:    DTXpress-subscribe@onelist.com
>   Unsubscribe:  DTXpress-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>   List owner:   DTXpress-owner@onelist.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>   http://www.onelist.com/community/DTXpress
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>