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OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-06 by jay marante

sorry for the OT. i just don't know where to ask these questions.

i know a little about the eagle lay-out editor. i do manual tracing of PCB. but i know there is this "auto-routing" thing where the PC routes the tracks for you, like the protel design systems'.
i don't know if i understand what i've read correctly, but, am i right that you can write a program (text) in eagle for all the connections or the components to be connected like in VHDL instead of dragging components and connect them yourself? if ever, how do i do that?
also, how do i auto-route?
and, how can i make a "gerber" (right spelling???) file for me to download it into a milling machine?
or maybe, can someone lead me to a tutorial site?

thanks for the help...

-jay

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Re: [AVR-Chat] OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-06 by Bernd Felsche

On Tuesday 06 July 2004 22:29, jay marante wrote:
> sorry for the OT. i just don't know where to ask these questions.

> i know a little about the eagle lay-out editor. i do manual tracing of
> PCB. but i know there is this "auto-routing" thing where the PC routes
> the tracks for you, like the protel design systems'. 

Yes; it can do auto-routing.
> i don't know if i
> understand what i've read correctly, but, am i right that you can write a
> program (text) in eagle for all the connections or the components to be
> connected like in VHDL instead of dragging components and connect them
> yourself? if ever, how do i do that? also, how do i auto-route?

I understand that you can create text parts lists that describe
packages, define nets and then a netscript to tie it all together.

But it is much easier to draw the schematic, then generate a board
and drag components around and maybe define a few critical tracks
before attempting an autoroute. So I've never done it the other way.

> and, how can i make a "gerber" (right spelling???) file for me to
> download it into a milling machine? or maybe, can someone lead me to a
> tutorial site?

See the Eagle support site for Gerber options.
	http://www.cadsoft.de

I've not seen a tutorial, but managed to work things out with
available documentation.

-- 
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 X   against HTML mail     | Copy me into your ~/.signature
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Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-06 by Phil

I find the eagle autorouter to be pretty dumb.  While you can control 
it via a fairly complex set of options, it still makes some pretty 
stupid decisions and will run some very circuitous traces. Also, it 
only routes 100% for the simplest boards.  

I use autorouting to see if my placement is reasonable and then ripup 
the routing and do it manually.   I am able to get much tighter 
layouts and shorter average traces with manual routing.  Also, you 
can see how to make changes in the schematic or layout to get a 
simpler board.  Pin swap is particularly useful to simplify routing.  
I've gotten single-sided boards where the autorouter gives up at like 
70%.

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Miller" <dave@c...> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
>  
> 
> The Autorouter option is only available if you have a netlist.  A 
netlist
> can either be imported or created when you draw the schematics.  I 
have
> always used Eagle to draw my schematics then create a PCB from my
> schematics.  This will create the necessary netlist file that will 
allow
> autorouting.
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dave Miller
> 
> Cipherlab
> 
> 888.825.7713
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: jay marante [mailto:jaythesis@y...] 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 7:30 AM
> To: AVR-chat@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AVR-Chat] OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor
> 
>  
> 
> sorry for the OT. i just don't know where to ask these questions.
> 
> i know a little about the eagle lay-out editor. i do manual tracing 
of PCB.
> but i know there is this "auto-routing" thing where the PC routes 
the tracks
> for you, like the protel design systems'. 
> i don't know if i understand what i've read correctly, but, am i 
right that
> you can write a program (text) in eagle for all the connections or 
the
> components to be connected like in VHDL instead of dragging 
components and
> connect them yourself? if ever, how do i do that?
> also, how do i auto-route?
> and, how can i make a "gerber" (right spelling???) file for me to 
download
> it into a milling machine?
> or maybe, can someone lead me to a tutorial site?
> 
> thanks for the help...
> 
> -jay
> 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?
M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
> :HM/A=2128215/rand=359347531>

RE: [AVR-Chat] OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-06 by Dave Miller

Hello,

The Autorouter option is only available if you have a netlist. A netlist can either be imported or created when you draw the schematics. I have always used Eagle to draw my schematics then create a PCB from my schematics. This will create the necessary netlist file that will allow autorouting.

Thanks,

Dave Miller

Cipherlab

888.825.7713

From: jay marante [mailto:jaythesis@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 7:30 AM
To: AVR-chat@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AVR-Chat] OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

sorry for the OT. i just don't know where to ask these questions.

i know a little about the eagle lay-out editor. i do manual tracing of PCB. but i know there is this "auto-routing" thing where the PC routes the tracks for you, like the protel design systems'.
i don't know if i understand what i've read correctly, but, am i right that you can write a program (text) in eagle for all the connections or the components to be connected like in VHDL instead of dragging components and connect them yourself? if ever, how do i do that?
also, how do i auto-route?
and, how can i make a "gerber" (right spelling???) file for me to download it into a milling machine?
or maybe, can someone lead me to a tutorial site?

thanks for the help...

-jay

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-06 by Jesper Hansen

Autoroute is not magic !
You will always be able to do a better fit manually.

I don't think ANY autorouter can do better than an
experienced person routing manually.

Autoroute only, should really only be used on non-critical
boards.

/Jesper

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Phil" <phil1960us@yahoo.com>
To: <AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 7:17 PM
Subject: [AVR-Chat] Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor


> I find the eagle autorouter to be pretty dumb.  While you can control 
> it via a fairly complex set of options, it still makes some pretty 
> stupid decisions and will run some very circuitous traces. Also, it 
> only routes 100% for the simplest boards.  
> 
> I use autorouting to see if my placement is reasonable and then ripup 
> the routing and do it manually.   I am able to get much tighter 
> layouts and shorter average traces with manual routing.  Also, you 
> can see how to make changes in the schematic or layout to get a 
> simpler board.  Pin swap is particularly useful to simplify routing.  
> I've gotten single-sided boards where the autorouter gives up at like 
> 70%.
> 
> --- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Miller" <dave@c...> wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > The Autorouter option is only available if you have a netlist.  A 
> netlist
> > can either be imported or created when you draw the schematics.  I 
> have
> > always used Eagle to draw my schematics then create a PCB from my
> > schematics.  This will create the necessary netlist file that will 
> allow
> > autorouting.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Dave Miller
> > 
> > Cipherlab
> > 
> > 888.825.7713
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >   _____  
> > 
> > From: jay marante [mailto:jaythesis@y...] 
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 7:30 AM
> > To: AVR-chat@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [AVR-Chat] OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > sorry for the OT. i just don't know where to ask these questions.
> > 
> > i know a little about the eagle lay-out editor. i do manual tracing 
> of PCB.
> > but i know there is this "auto-routing" thing where the PC routes 
> the tracks
> > for you, like the protel design systems'. 
> > i don't know if i understand what i've read correctly, but, am i 
> right that
> > you can write a program (text) in eagle for all the connections or 
> the
> > components to be connected like in VHDL instead of dragging 
> components and
> > connect them yourself? if ever, how do i do that?
> > also, how do i auto-route?
> > and, how can i make a "gerber" (right spelling???) file for me to 
> download
> > it into a milling machine?
> > or maybe, can someone lead me to a tutorial site?
> > 
> > thanks for the help...
> > 
> > -jay
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?
> M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
> > :HM/A=2128215/rand=359347531>
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
>

RE: [AVR-Chat] Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-06 by Al Welch

I use Eagle and it works for me!  I had to exchange emails with support and
got a file with better routing settings to make it do what I desired. I
think you can find these files on their support files site.  Once you get
the settings close it does a pretty good job. I always hand route my power
supply and critical signals and then let it autoroute the rest. I have some
fairly crowded boards and it did 100% on those.

Al Welch
PS I have found support to be pretty good at helping if you send them your
board files and explain what you want
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Jesper Hansen [mailto:jesperh@telia.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 11:30 AM
To: AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor


Autoroute is not magic !
You will always be able to do a better fit manually.

I don't think ANY autorouter can do better than an
experienced person routing manually.

Autoroute only, should really only be used on non-critical
boards.

/Jesper

----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil" <phil1960us@yahoo.com>
To: <AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 7:17 PM
Subject: [AVR-Chat] Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor


> I find the eagle autorouter to be pretty dumb.  While you can control
> it via a fairly complex set of options, it still makes some pretty
> stupid decisions and will run some very circuitous traces. Also, it
> only routes 100% for the simplest boards.
>
> I use autorouting to see if my placement is reasonable and then ripup
> the routing and do it manually.   I am able to get much tighter
> layouts and shorter average traces with manual routing.  Also, you
> can see how to make changes in the schematic or layout to get a
> simpler board.  Pin swap is particularly useful to simplify routing.
> I've gotten single-sided boards where the autorouter gives up at like
> 70%.
>
> --- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Miller" <dave@c...> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> >
> >
> > The Autorouter option is only available if you have a netlist.  A
> netlist
> > can either be imported or created when you draw the schematics.  I
> have
> > always used Eagle to draw my schematics then create a PCB from my
> > schematics.  This will create the necessary netlist file that will
> allow
> > autorouting.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dave Miller
> >
> > Cipherlab
> >
> > 888.825.7713
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   _____
> >
> > From: jay marante [mailto:jaythesis@y...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 7:30 AM
> > To: AVR-chat@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [AVR-Chat] OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor
> >
> >
> >
> > sorry for the OT. i just don't know where to ask these questions.
> >
> > i know a little about the eagle lay-out editor. i do manual tracing
> of PCB.
> > but i know there is this "auto-routing" thing where the PC routes
> the tracks
> > for you, like the protel design systems'.
> > i don't know if i understand what i've read correctly, but, am i
> right that
> > you can write a program (text) in eagle for all the connections or
> the
> > components to be connected like in VHDL instead of dragging
> components and
> > connect them yourself? if ever, how do i do that?
> > also, how do i auto-route?
> > and, how can i make a "gerber" (right spelling???) file for me to
> download
> > it into a milling machine?
> > or maybe, can someone lead me to a tutorial site?
> >
> > thanks for the help...
> >
> > -jay
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?
> M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
> > :HM/A=2128215/rand=359347531>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>





Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-06 by David VanHorn

At 08:29 PM 7/6/2004 +0200, Jesper Hansen wrote:

>Autoroute is not magic !
>You will always be able to do a better fit manually.
>
>I don't think ANY autorouter can do better than an
>experienced person routing manually.
>
>Autoroute only, should really only be used on non-critical
>boards.

I've never seen an autorouter that actually worked, on real world boards.
By that I mean boards where it matters not only that all the nets are connected, but that large pulse currents return to the proper places.

On the packages where I can tell it these things, I could have manually routed it faster than I can tell it all the rules. 

I use autorouters for density checking.

Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-06 by Dave Mucha

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, David VanHorn <dvanhorn@c...> wrote:
> At 08:29 PM 7/6/2004 +0200, Jesper Hansen wrote:
> 
> >Autoroute is not magic !
> >You will always be able to do a better fit manually.
> >
> >I don't think ANY autorouter can do better than an
> >experienced person routing manually.
> >
> >Autoroute only, should really only be used on non-critical
> >boards.
> 
> I've never seen an autorouter that actually worked, on real world 
boards.

I use autorouter to see the congestion on the board and move parts to 
allow the traces to fit logically.

I use autorouter to verify that all the traces CAN be made.

Then,  I hand route for final boards.  The autorouter in WinQCad is 
fast, and works  well, but leaves ugly lines.

Dave

Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-07 by Phil

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, David VanHorn <dvanhorn@c...> wrote:
> At 08:29 PM 7/6/2004 +0200, Jesper Hansen wrote:
> I've never seen an autorouter that actually worked, on real world 
boards.
> By that I mean boards where it matters not only that all the nets 
are connected, but that large pulse currents return to the proper 
places.
> 

Yeah, better said than I did...

In addition, a board where you need analog traces seperated from 
digital and power, traces as short as possible, signals kept away 
from noise sources, power having wider traces, bypass caps directly 
to power/gnd pins, ....

By the way, I have found that parts layout is the most important 
task.  A good layout will route pretty well in most cases.  A bad 
layout will cost you hours and frustration.  That's what I use 
autoroute for - to see if the layout is reasonably optimal.

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-07 by Kathy Quinlan

David VanHorn wrote:
> At 08:29 PM 7/6/2004 +0200, Jesper Hansen wrote:
> 
> 
>>Autoroute is not magic !
>>You will always be able to do a better fit manually.
>>
>>I don't think ANY autorouter can do better than an
>>experienced person routing manually.
>>
>>Autoroute only, should really only be used on non-critical
>>boards.
> 
> 
> I've never seen an autorouter that actually worked, on real world boards.
> By that I mean boards where it matters not only that all the nets are connected, but that large pulse currents return to the proper places.
> 
> On the packages where I can tell it these things, I could have manually routed it faster than I can tell it all the rules. 
> 
> I use autorouters for density checking.

Apart from the fact the rules take so long to program up, Spectra does a 
good job, but it is ~us$30K per license :(

But I agree, is reason why I have stayed at protel 99SE, I manual route 
all my PCB's and I can do a far better Job (I guess 15 years experiance 
dose that)

Regards,

Kat.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
K.A.Q. Electronics	Website: www.kaqelectronics.dyndns.org
IM: Yahoo: PinkyDwaggy  MSN: katinka@kaqelectronics.dyndns.org
For Everything Electronics     Phone: 0419 923 731
---------------------------------------------------------------

Autoroute (was Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 ...)

2004-07-08 by Graham Davies

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:

> I find the eagle autorouter to be pretty dumb.

I would like to disagree with this, but agree with the general 
direction of the discussion.  I use Eagle and think that the 
autorouter is pretty good and darned good for the money. This is my 
methodology:

Small, double-sided boards with mixed through hole and surface mount. 
Draw schematic. Place components guided by airwires. SAVE. Autoroute 
with goal of 100%. Quit, don't save, re-open unrouted board. Try 
again, changing settings such as preferred direction on each layer. 
Repeat until autoroute is 100% or near, moving components if 
necessary. Note best directions. Starting with unrouted board, lay in 
ground, power and critical nets by hand, keeping to best directions 
on each layer. Autoroute from time to time, but always discard. Look 
for congestion and adjust placement and hand-laid traces to relieve. 
When satisfied, autoroute and save. Look for and fix stupid routes. 
Route any unrouted traces by hand. Look for other improvements as 
time permits. Fatten up ground as much as possible, perhaps using 
polygon floods. For best EMI performance, when the ground is laid in 
by hand you need to form a grid, not just a meandering wire, with 
apertures in the grid as small as possible. This provides multiple 
return paths for signals and greatly reduces emission of and 
succeptibility to EM interference. Of course, if things are really 
bad you need a full ground plane but at minimum you need a grid.

Graham.

Re: [AVR-Chat] Autoroute (was Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 ...)

2004-07-08 by jay marante

can someone please guide me with PCB designs? im trying to make my first PCB with eagle. also, i can't find a mega16 in the AVR library. and, i don't know anything about the "rules" in designing a good circuit board. thanks...
 
-jay

Graham Davies <YahooGroups@ecrostech.com> wrote:
--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:

> I find the eagle autorouter to be pretty dumb.

I would like to disagree with this, but agree with the general 
direction of the discussion.  I use Eagle and think that the 
autorouter is pretty good and darned good for the money. This is my 
methodology:

Small, double-sided boards with mixed through hole and surface mount. 
Draw schematic. Place components guided by airwires. SAVE. Autoroute 
with goal of 100%. Quit, don't save, re-open unrouted board. Try 
again, changing settings such as preferred direction on each layer. 
Repeat until autoroute is 100% or near, moving components if 
necessary. Note best directions. Starting with unrouted board, lay in 
ground, power and critical nets by hand, keeping to best directions 
on each layer. Autoroute from time to time, but always discard. Look 
for congestion and adjust placement and hand-laid traces to relieve. 
When satisfied, autoroute and save. Look for and fix stupid routes. 
Route any unrouted traces by hand. Look for other improvements as 
time permits. Fatten up ground as much as possible, perhaps using 
polygon floods. For best EMI performance, when the ground is laid in 
by hand you need to form a grid, not just a meandering wire, with 
apertures in the grid as small as possible. This provides multiple 
return paths for signals and greatly reduces emission of and 
succeptibility to EM interference. Of course, if things are really 
bad you need a full ground plane but at minimum you need a grid.

Graham.



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Re: [AVR-Chat] Autoroute (was Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 ...)

2004-07-08 by David VanHorn

>For best EMI performance, when the ground is laid in 
>by hand you need to form a grid, not just a meandering wire, with 
>apertures in the grid as small as possible. This provides multiple 
>return paths for signals and greatly reduces emission of and 
>succeptibility to EM interference. Of course, if things are really 
>bad you need a full ground plane but at minimum you need a grid.

Well.. I have a lot of success with the anti-grid approach, providing one and ONLY one low impedance path back to the source, and not allowing RF current to spread out and take all possible paths.

RE: [AVR-Chat] Autoroute (was Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 ...)

2004-07-08 by Al Welch

Jay
Sounds like you need to hire a consultant to help you out. There is one linked on the CadSoftusa.com web site for eaglecad. That might make sense for you. Also some collage classes offer project building.
Al Welch
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: jay marante [mailto:jaythesis@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 8:50 AM
To: AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AVR-Chat] Autoroute (was Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 ...)

can someone please guide me with PCB designs? im trying to make my first PCB with eagle. also, i can't find a mega16 in the AVR library. and, i don't know anything about the "rules" in designing a good circuit board. thanks...
-jay

Graham Davies wrote:
--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote:

> I find the eagle autorouter to be pretty dumb.

I would like to disagree with this, but agree with the general
direction of the discussion. I use Eagle and think that the
autorouter is pretty good and darned good for the money. This is my
methodology:

Small, double-sided boards with mixed through hole and surface mount.
Draw schematic. Place components guided by airwires. SAVE. Autoroute
with goal of 100%. Quit, don't save, re-open unrouted board. Try
again, changing settings such as preferred direction on each layer.
Repeat until autoroute is 100% or near, moving components if
necessary. Note best directions. Starting with unrouted board, lay in
ground, power and critical nets by hand, keeping to best directions
on each layer. Autoroute from time to time, but always discard. Look
for congestion and adjust placement and hand-laid traces to relieve.
When satisfied, autoroute and save. Look for and fix stupid routes.
Route any unrouted traces by hand. Look for other improvements as
time permits. Fatten up ground as much as possible, perhaps using
polygon floods. For best EMI performance, when the ground is laid in
by hand you need to form a grid, not just a meandering wire, with
apertures in the grid as small as possible. This provides multiple
return paths for signals and greatly reduces emission of and
succeptibility to EM interference. Of course, if things are really
bad you need a full ground plane but at minimum you need a grid.

Graham.



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Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!

RE: [AVR-Chat] Autoroute (was Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 ...)

2004-07-08 by Al Welch

Jay
The link below will take you to a us consultant for eaglecad who offers an at home training course for $189. This may be of interest to you. Also there is a free forum for eaglecad users where you can post question and get help from user and tech support in Europe that monitors the forum. They are not going to teach you basic design for pcbs though.
Also on the web they have download area for libs built by users and you may find your part there.
Al Welch
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: jay marante [mailto:jaythesis@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 8:50 AM
To: AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AVR-Chat] Autoroute (was Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 ...)

can someone please guide me with PCB designs? im trying to make my first PCB with eagle. also, i can't find a mega16 in the AVR library. and, i don't know anything about the "rules" in designing a good circuit board. thanks...
-jay

Graham Davies wrote:
--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote:

> I find the eagle autorouter to be pretty dumb.

I would like to disagree with this, but agree with the general
direction of the discussion. I use Eagle and think that the
autorouter is pretty good and darned good for the money. This is my
methodology:

Small, double-sided boards with mixed through hole and surface mount.
Draw schematic. Place components guided by airwires. SAVE. Autoroute
with goal of 100%. Quit, don't save, re-open unrouted board. Try
again, changing settings such as preferred direction on each layer.
Repeat until autoroute is 100% or near, moving components if
necessary. Note best directions. Starting with unrouted board, lay in
ground, power and critical nets by hand, keeping to best directions
on each layer. Autoroute from time to time, but always discard. Look
for congestion and adjust placement and hand-laid traces to relieve.
When satisfied, autoroute and save. Look for and fix stupid routes.
Route any unrouted traces by hand. Look for other improvements as
time permits. Fatten up ground as much as possible, perhaps using
polygon floods. For best EMI performance, when the ground is laid in
by hand you need to form a grid, not just a meandering wire, with
apertures in the grid as small as possible. This provides multiple
return paths for signals and greatly reduces emission of and
succeptibility to EM interference. Of course, if things are really
bad you need a full ground plane but at minimum you need a grid.

Graham.



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Re: [AVR-Chat] OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-08 by Rick Hughes

Jay,

I would recommend Al William's book, _Build Your Own Printed Circuit 
Board_.  This book will show you how to use Eagle and gives some of the 
details on board layout basics that often get overlooked.  It won't 
teach you everything about layout, but it's a good place for a beginner 
to start.  It's available from Amazon.com at a very reasonable price.

Rick


jay marante wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> sorry for the OT. i just don't know where to ask these questions.
>
> i know a little about the eagle lay-out editor. i do manual tracing of 
> PCB. but i know there is this "auto-routing" thing where the PC routes 
> the tracks for you, like the protel design systems'.
> i don't know if i understand what i've read correctly, but, am i right 
> that you can write a program (text) in eagle for all the connections 
> or the components to be connected like in VHDL instead of dragging 
> components and connect them yourself? if ever, how do i do that?
> also, how do i auto-route?
> and, how can i make a "gerber" (right spelling???) file for me to 
> download it into a milling machine?
> or maybe, can someone lead me to a tutorial site?
>
> thanks for the help...
>
> -jay
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor - WinQCAD

2004-07-09 by Dave Mucha

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, jay marante <jaythesis@y...> wrote:
> 
> sorry for the OT. i just don't know where to ask these questions.
> 
> i know a little about the eagle lay-out editor. i do manual tracing 
of PCB. but i know there is this "auto-routing" thing where the PC 
routes the tracks for you, like the protel design systems'. 
> i don't know if i understand what i've read correctly, but, am i 
right that you can write a program (text) in eagle for all the 
connections or the components to be connected like in VHDL instead of 
dragging components and connect them yourself? if ever, how do i do 
that?
> also, how do i auto-route?
> and, how can i make a "gerber" (right spelling???) file for me to 
download it into a milling machine?
> or maybe, can someone lead me to a tutorial site?
> 
> thanks for the help...
> 
> -jay

Hi Jay,

If you are totally new and are doing this hobby style, WinQCAD is 
easier to learn than Eagle, and WinQCAD has CNC output as well as 
Gerber output.  

G-Code is the file type you will eventually wind up with for your 
machine and Gerber is a stop on the way.  You will often need another 
conversion from Gerber to G-Code.


WinQCad does not the same depth of resourses as Eagle, but for a 
hobbiest it works well and will teach the basics.

The almost universal complaint about Eagle is that the user interface 
appears to be old and not intuitive.

Dave

Re: [AVR-Chat] OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-09 by Michael Buchstaller

>The Autorouter option is only available if you have a netlist.  A netlist
>can either be imported or created when you draw the schematics.

Not true.
You can also simply position the parts and then draw "Airwires" for the
connections; mo need for a schematic. Then,entering the "AUTO" command
will do it...


-Michael Buchstaller

Tiny-26 pin change int

2004-07-10 by David VanHorn

What am I missing kids?

I set up this pin change int for the low bits of port B.
Once I activate it, I get the int in sim, on every cycle.
IOW, there doesn't seem to be any CHANGE required..

Do I have to do something in the ISR, to "set" the bit state?

Re: [AVR-Chat] OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-10 by jay marante

thanks for all the help, guys.
unfortunately, im from the philippines and asking for a consultant about PCB design is not really possible right now because of money constraints. and considering the fact that im still a college student. books would really help a lot but i can't afford to buy one right now. i've searched the internet about some EMC design and only understand a few of them. 
 
i've used the old protel designer before when i designed a printer port, though i don't know anything about EMC before. it was easier to make a design when you don't have any knowledge about those restrictions!  now that im conducting my undergrad thesis, i'd really like to make my board nice (for my professor to let me graduate! hehe...)

i have a photoresist double-sided PCB here which im going to use. i've etched one about two months ago (routed manually), still without any knowledge on EMC (see photo). now, im trying to have a new design incorporating my minute knowledge on EMC. 
 
can someone guide me through? i mean, suggestions would really help a lot. thanks for the help.
 
-jay

 
Michael Buchstaller <buchi@buchi.de> wrote:
>The Autorouter option is only available if you have a netlist.  A netlist
>can either be imported or created when you draw the schematics.

Not true.
You can also simply position the parts and then draw "Airwires" for the
connections; mo need for a schematic. Then,entering the "AUTO" command
will do it...


-Michael Buchstaller

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Re: [AVR-Chat] OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-10 by David VanHorn

My #1 rule for EMI:  Put the current back where you got it from.

Notice how I didn't say "let it find it's own way back there"... :)


#2 rule: Keep high frequency loops short, and small.

If you can, route out and back either side by side, or top and bottom.
Minimizing loop area is a primary method to reduce both radiation and pickup.  Take the same length of track, and make it a circle or a square, and it's a very effective antenna. Stretch it till the two legs are side by side, and there's almost no loop area, and now you have a very ineffective antenna, also known as a transmission line. 

Crystal caps are a good example. These should have a separate DEDICATED track back to the uP's ground pin. DO NOT dump them into a plane, or worse, onto a ground track that runs off to other places (This is also known as an ANTENNA). The crystal tracks should run close parallel, by the shortest possible track length, to the uP's xtal pins. Try to flood an area of ground around them if possible. Your dedicated cap return track can go down the middle of the two xtal tracks.

#3 rule: control where noise goes, by giving it fat tracks to where you want it to go, and skinny ones to where you don't want it to go, but know that it will go both ways, according to the relative impedances.

#4 rule: Bypassing: Put the bypass at the client's ground pin. Make this the connection point to system ground. Route a fat track from the client's VCC pin(s) to the cap. Route a skinny track from the cap to system VCC.  If you can, follow this same procedure with the ground, back to system ground (normally the big cap on the power supply output).

Re: [AVR-Chat] OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-11 by jay marante

thank you, sir...
 
i've read about "gridding" the ground trace. is this right? i says that there should be grid for the ground trace through out the board, maybe horizontal on the bottom and vertical on the top layer or vice versa. then just connect a via if i go from horizontal to vertical / vertical to horizontal.
 
on your rule #4, what do you exactly mean by "Put the bypass at the client's ground pin. Make this the connection point to system ground. Route a fat track from the client's VCC pin(s) to the cap. Route a skinny track from the cap to system VCC"

 

what i have in mind is that i'll have bigger tracks for system VCC and GND and when i connect the IC's ground and VCC, i'll have a bit smaller track than the system's VCC and GND.
thanks...
 
-jay

David VanHorn <dvanhorn@cedar.net> wrote:

My #1 rule for EMI:  Put the current back where you got it from.

Notice how I didn't say "let it find it's own way back there"... :)


#2 rule: Keep high frequency loops short, and small.

If you can, route out and back either side by side, or top and bottom.
Minimizing loop area is a primary method to reduce both radiation and pickup.  Take the same length of track, and make it a circle or a square, and it's a very effective antenna. Stretch it till the two legs are side by side, and there's almost no loop area, and now you have a very ineffective antenna, also known as a transmission line. 

Crystal caps are a good example. These should have a separate DEDICATED track back to the uP's ground pin. DO NOT dump them into a plane, or worse, onto a ground track that runs off to other places (This is also known as an ANTENNA). The crystal tracks should run close parallel, by the shortest possible track length, to the uP's xtal pins. Try to flood an area of ground around them if possible. Your dedicated cap return track can go down the middle of the two xtal tracks.

#3 rule: control where noise goes, by giving it fat tracks to where you want it to go, and skinny ones to where you don't want it to go, but know that it will go both ways, according to the relative impedances.

#4 rule: Bypassing: Put the bypass at the client's ground pin. Make this the connection point to system ground. Route a fat track from the client's VCC pin(s) to the cap. Route a skinny track from the cap to system VCC.  If you can, follow this same procedure with the ground, back to system ground (normally the big cap on the power supply output).


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Re: [AVR-Chat] OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-11 by David VanHorn

At 06:44 PM 7/10/2004 -0700, jay marante wrote:

>thank you, sir...
> 
>i've read about "gridding" the ground trace. is this right? i says that there should be grid for the ground trace through out the board, maybe horizontal on the bottom and vertical on the top layer or vice versa. then just connect a via if i go from horizontal to vertical / vertical to horizontal.

Gridding or planing is ok, but don't let the plane try to do your work for you. Handle the ground returns that you know are noisy, yourself.

> 
>on your rule #4, what do you exactly mean by "Put the bypass at the client's ground pin. Make this the connection point to system ground. Route a fat track from the client's VCC pin(s) to the cap. Route a skinny track from the cap to system VCC"

The "client" would be the chip that's being fed from the power supply. 
The bypass cap should be local to that client, and the tracks arrainged to serve that client.

> what i have in mind is that i'll have bigger tracks for system VCC and GND and when i connect the IC's ground and VCC, i'll have a bit smaller track than the system's VCC and GND.

Well, as you go back toward the power supply, the current on the tracks rises, but for logic and such, the current is so low that it almost doesn't matter.

OT Good ground design for PCB (was: Autoroute (was Re: OT ...))

2004-07-12 by Graham Davies

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, David VanHorn <dvanhorn@c...> wrote:

> [in reply to my statement] For best EMI
> performance ... you need to form a grid

> Well ... I have a lot of success with ...
> providing one and ONLY one low impedance
> path back to the source, and not allowing
> RF current to spread out and take all
> possible paths.

The problem with this is as follows. If the return path is not close 
to the signal path, you are making a loop antenna. This both radiates 
EMI and picks up EMI from other places.

The way that a ground plane works is to provide a return path for 
every signal that is very close to the signal path. The signal in the 
signal layer trace actually causes the high frequency components of 
the return current to flow right underneath the trace even though the 
ground plane covers the board.

But if you don't have a ground plane, what is best? First, make the 
antenna as small as possible. This means routing ground close to the 
signal. But, with signals running all over the place you can't do 
this unless you have ground all over too, which ends up being a grid. 
Second, split the signal to go in opposite directions around two 
adjacent antennas. Both radiation and pickup then cancel. This also 
ends up being a grid.

EMI control techniques can sometimes be counter-intuitive. I hope the 
above explanation is helpful.

Graham.

Re: OT: Eagle 4.11 layout editor

2004-07-12 by Graham Davies

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, David VanHorn <dvanhorn@c...> wrote:

> My #1 rule for EMI:
> #2 rule:  etc.

David clearly understands EMI and I hope he's not offended by the 
post I made before realizing this.

Atmel publish an excellent application note on this subject that 
gives very similar advice to David regarding decoupling of power and 
ground. There are diagrams.

Finally, though David's methods are needed for high-speed 
microprocessors, etc., for an MCU with a 16 MHz crystal it may be 
sufficient to flood and grid the ground without identifying and 
isolating individual return paths. Exceptions: critical applications 
such as medical equipment, equipment for very harsh EMI environments 
such as power plants or automobiles, integrated equipment with 
sensitive (e.g. analog) or noisy (e.g. relay) circuits on the same 
board as the MCU. In those cases, follow David's advice exactly.

Graham.

Re: [AVR-Chat] OT Good ground design for PCB (was: Autoroute (was Re: OT ...))

2004-07-12 by David VanHorn

At 05:20 PM 7/12/2004 +0000, Graham Davies wrote:

>--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, David VanHorn <dvanhorn@c...> wrote:
>
>> [in reply to my statement] For best EMI
>> performance ... you need to form a grid
>
>> Well ... I have a lot of success with ...
>> providing one and ONLY one low impedance
>> path back to the source, and not allowing
>> RF current to spread out and take all
>> possible paths.
>
>The problem with this is as follows. If the return path is not close 
>to the signal path, you are making a loop antenna. This both radiates 
>EMI and picks up EMI from other places.

Read the other rule about minimizing loop areas.

>The way that a ground plane works is to provide a return path for 
>every signal that is very close to the signal path.

A perfect ground plane would do that, but it also allows the current to take ALL possible paths in the ground plane. Given that any real board will have an imperfect plane, with non-zero impedance, this causes problems.

> The signal in the 
>signal layer trace actually causes the high frequency components of 
>the return current to flow right underneath the trace even though the 
>ground plane covers the board.

Mostly, but not completely.  In a perfect ground plane, it's not bad.

>But if you don't have a ground plane, what is best? First, make the 
>antenna as small as possible. This means routing ground close to the 
>signal.

In one printer, I have a printhead that uses 32V at 19A pulsed for 300uS every few mS. In this one, I routed printhead power and printhead power return as two 200 mil tracks, top and bottom of the PCB, power directly on top of the return.  The only place the PH return contacts "system ground" is at the third of the three caps that provide the energy storage.

Picture, caps as values in uF:

/----+----+----+--------------------------------+---\
PS  330  330  330    5 inches or so             1 HEAD
\----+----+----+--------------------------------+---/
     |
   System ground

So, the energy mostly flows in a very tight loop between the three caps and the head. 1uF local bypass at the head turned out to be not all that useful.

Note, the caps weren't blobbed togther, they were routed exactly as drawn.  This places more of the ripple current burden on the one closest to the printhead, and so that one is specified for high ripple. Even though they are as close as can be, there is a significant difference in ripple current. Verified with current probe.

If I had simply dumped the return current into the plane, this would have caused the return current to run through my logic section, and I guarantee you that board would have had glitchy problems.

> But, with signals running all over the place you can't do 
>this unless you have ground all over too, which ends up being a grid.

Only if you let it.  I use planed areas for each function, then connect the planed areas at the power supply, in a star topology. 
I also handle power that way.

> 
>Second, split the signal to go in opposite directions around two 
>adjacent antennas. Both radiation and pickup then cancel. This also 
>ends up being a grid.

I don't get what you mean here, exactly.

OT Good ground design for PCB (was: Autoroute (was Re: OT ...))

2004-07-13 by Graham Davies

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, David VanHorn <dvanhorn@c...> wrote:

> In one printer, I have a printhead
> that uses 32V at 19A pulsed for
> 300uS every few mS ...

You have probably realized that I replied to your very brief message 
apparently rebutting my recommendation of gridding before I read your 
other messages in which you more fully explained your situation. My 
recommendation is applicable in most situations, where "most" does 
not cover high current pulses to on-board relays and solenoids (as I 
later stated).  I think we are pretty much in complete agreeement. My 
point, perhaps, is that if you don't have a severe EMI situation, 
gridding the ground is going to give you good results, certainly 
better than a snaking ground, and it is not necessary to go to the 
lengths you describe.

Regarding the opposed antenna effect of gridding, I will try to draw 
a picture, but Yahoo! will mess it up.

--<--- return path A ----<----<---
|
v
Source --->---->---->---->----> sink
^
|
--<--- return path B ----<----<---

There is no return path directly under the outgoing signal path. The 
return signal splits and tends to take multiple paths over the ground 
grid. Consider return paths A and B which, together with the outgoing 
signal, form loops A and B. The current in loop A is 
counterclockwise. The current in loop B is clockwise. Therefore, both 
emitted and received EMI will tend to cancel. I'm not saying they 
cancel perfectly, but together with the smaller loops of a grid, you 
can get a reduction in EMI of a factor of 10 or more over a poorly 
designed, non-gridded PCB. This is in many situations enough.

Graham.

Re: [AVR-Chat] Back to basics - math questions

2004-08-30 by James Wagner

There are several Atmel app notes on multi-byte math. I
think there are examples in both assy and C.

Jim

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 12:31:12 -0300
 "Mark Jordan" <mark@cpovo.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm dealing with
> two-complement math using 16bit registers.
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Please take a look at my
> routines and tell me if I'm doing
> anything wrong or if there is a better way of doing it:
> 
> ---------
> 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Adding two signed numbers
> is:
> 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> add&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; numl, fatl
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> adc&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; numh, fath
> 
> ---------
> 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For subtracting two signed
> numbers I'm using this:
> 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> sub&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; numl, fatl
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> sbc&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; numh, fath
> 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Maybe I should use this
> instead (I guess the result is the same):
> 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; fatl
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; fath
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> adiw&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; fatl, $01
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> add&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; numl, fatl
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> adc&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; numh, fath
> 
> ---------
> 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For 16x16bit signed
> multiply&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; :
> 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> clr&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; zero
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> muls&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; auxh,
> genh&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ; (signed)S1h *
> (signed)S0h
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> movw&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; matl, prdl
> 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> mul&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; auxl,
> genl&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ; S1l * S0l
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> mov&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; inth, prdh
> 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> mulsu&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; genh,
> auxl&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ; (signed)S0h * S1l
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> sbc&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; math,
> zero&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ; Sign extend
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> add&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; inth, prdl
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> adc&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; matl, prdh
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> adc&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; math, zero
> 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> mulsu&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; auxh,
> genl&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ; (signed)S1h * S0l
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> sbc&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; math,
> zero&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ; Sign extend
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> add&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; inth, prdl
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> adc&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; matl, prdh
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> adc&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; math,
> zero&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ; Result here
> 
> ---------
> 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks,
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mark Jordan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Back to basics - math questions

2004-08-30 by Mark Jordan

I'm dealing with two-complement math using 16bit registers.
	Please take a look at my routines and tell me if I'm doing
anything wrong or if there is a better way of doing it:

---------

	Adding two signed numbers is:

	add	numl, fatl
	adc	numh, fath

---------

	For subtracting two signed numbers I'm using this:

	sub	numl, fatl
	sbc	numh, fath

	Maybe I should use this instead (I guess the result is the same):

	com	fatl
	com	fath
	adiw	fatl, $01
	add	numl, fatl
	adc	numh, fath

---------

	For 16x16bit signed multiply	:

	clr	zero
	muls	auxh, genh		; (signed)S1h * (signed)S0h
	movw	matl, prdl

	mul	auxl, genl		; S1l * S0l
	mov	inth, prdh

	mulsu	genh, auxl		; (signed)S0h * S1l
	sbc	math, zero		; Sign extend
	add	inth, prdl
	adc	matl, prdh
	adc	math, zero

	mulsu	auxh, genl		; (signed)S1h * S0l
	sbc	math, zero		; Sign extend
	add	inth, prdl
	adc	matl, prdh
	adc	math, zero		; Result here

---------

	Thanks,
	Mark Jordan

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