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Editing the AN200 without using the software editor

Editing the AN200 without using the software editor

2005-11-02 by soundcrafter

Has anyone here tried doing deep editing on the AN200 without using
the software editor? I have the editor, but I really don't like using
it. I think its utter crap that you can only access 15% of the
functions from the front panel...

Anyway, I guess what I am asking is this: does the editor use normal
CCs to control the AN200, or is there some other protocol being used?
If it's just CCs, I should be able to program the knobs on my XL7 to
get similar results.

Anybody doing this with any sort of success?

Thanks

D

Re: [AN1x] Editing the AN200 without using the software editor

2005-11-02 by Summa

My guess is that CCs won't be sufficient for the amount of parameters the AN200
use, you probably need sysex commands to access all the functions...

...Summa


On 2 Nov 2005 at 0:16, soundcrafter wrote:

> Has anyone here tried doing deep editing on the AN200 without using
> the software editor? I have the editor, but I really don't like using
> it. I think its utter crap that you can only access 15% of the
> functions from the front panel...
>
> Anyway, I guess what I am asking is this: does the editor use normal
> CCs to control the AN200, or is there some other protocol being used?
> If it's just CCs, I should be able to program the knobs on my XL7 to
> get similar results.
>
> Anybody doing this with any sort of success?
>
> Thanks
>
> D
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Community email addresses:
> Post message: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
> Subscribe: AN1x-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Unsubscribe: AN1x-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> List owner: AN1x-list-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list
>
> The AN1x Control Synthesizer FAQ::
> http://www.geocities.com/jondl_2000/an1x_faq/an1x_faq_toc.htm
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--

CZ/VZ mailing list : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CZsynth
FMHeaven mailing list : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fmheaven/
FS1R mailing list : http://www.ampfea.org/mailman/listinfo/fss-list
Vokator mailing list : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vokator


Wellenform Chat So and Do 22.00 CET: http://chat.moogulator.com/

Re: [AN1x] Editing the AN200 without using the software editor

2005-11-02 by Dale Kay

just pointing out a recent synthedit post that may prove useful in the future

post reads as follows
****************begin************
A module needs to be built that can transmit a user-defined sysex
> > string
>
> Hi,
> That's planned for SE V1.1, automation of any control via (almost) any
> MIDI message, including sysex.
>
> Best Regards,
> Jeff
*************end****************

Synthedit is a vst making tool, trying to keep it real basic here. http://www.synthedit.com/

You can find stand alone host to run vsts. In a sense, you can use sonar, cubase etc. that will work vsts. What has this to do with AN200 and on? The post is pointing out a future module that will allow you to send sysex in, make your own editor or effect/patch sender etc...

Me, right now I spend more time than needed either making a patch with the editor, saving it and so forth. Or I use the midi event window in sonar and do it live on the fly since I saved pieces of things I use. Copy and paste.
So when this item is out, I hope someone / I will take the time to roll one myself, makes a useful tool for the DX, AN series. Would be very cool to have one interface for all my synths, just tab them. Anyway, don't hold your breath. It will be a while but you can keep up on these things at the synthedit group on yahoo and kvr.

Just pointing this out, not everyone wants to get this deep. I know I rather not myself these days if someone else will make it. If I do it, it most likely will be done to the way I work and the things I use. A team effort is really required and not just one persons vision.


dale
dale@...
Lancaster CA

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----- Original Message -----
From: Summa
To: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: [AN1x] Editing the AN200 without using the software editor


My guess is that CCs won't be sufficient for the amount of parameters the AN200
use, you probably need sysex commands to access all the functions...

...Summa


On 2 Nov 2005 at 0:16, soundcrafter wrote:

> Has anyone here tried doing deep editing on the AN200 without using
> the software editor? I have the editor, but I really don't like using
> it. I think its utter crap that you can only access 15% of the
> functions from the front panel...
>
> Anyway, I guess what I am asking is this: does the editor use normal
> CCs to control the AN200, or is there some other protocol being used?
> If it's just CCs, I should be able to program the knobs on my XL7 to
> get similar results.
>
> Anybody doing this with any sort of success?
>
> Thanks
>
> D

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [AN1x] Editing the AN200 without using the software editor

2005-11-02 by soundcrafter

--- In AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com, "Summa" <flotorian@f...> wrote:
>
> My guess is that CCs won't be sufficient for the amount of
parameters the AN200
> use, you probably need sysex commands to access all the functions...
>
> ...Summa
>
>
> On 2 Nov 2005 at 0:16, soundcrafter wrote:
>
> > Has anyone here tried doing deep editing on the AN200 without
using
> > the software editor? I have the editor, but I really don't like
using
> > it. I think its utter crap that you can only access 15% of the
> > functions from the front panel...
> >
> > Anyway, I guess what I am asking is this: does the editor use
normal
> > CCs to control the AN200, or is there some other protocol being
used?
> > If it's just CCs, I should be able to program the knobs on my XL7
to
> > get similar results.
> >
> > Anybody doing this with any sort of success?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > D
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Community email addresses:
> > Post message: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
> > Subscribe: AN1x-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Unsubscribe: AN1x-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > List owner: AN1x-list-owner@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Shortcut URL to this page:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list
> >
> > The AN1x Control Synthesizer FAQ::
> > http://www.geocities.com/jondl_2000/an1x_faq/an1x_faq_toc.htm
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> CZ/VZ mailing list :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CZsynth
> FMHeaven mailing list :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fmheaven/
> FS1R mailing list :
http://www.ampfea.org/mailman/listinfo/fss-list
> Vokator mailing list :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vokator
>
>
> Wellenform Chat So and Do 22.00 CET: http://chat.moogulator.com/
>

Re: [AN1x] Editing the AN200 without using the software editor

2005-11-02 by cavey@raketnet.nl

On Wed Nov 02 2005, soundcrafter <aurastar@...> wrote:
> --- In AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com, "Summa" <flotorian@f...> wrote:
> >
> > My guess is that CCs won't be sufficient for the amount of
> parameters the AN200
> > use, you probably need sysex commands to access all the functions...
> >
> > ...Summa
> >
> >
> > On 2 Nov 2005 at 0:16, soundcrafter wrote:
> >
> > > Has anyone here tried doing deep editing on the AN200 without
> using
> > > the software editor? I have the editor, but I really don't like
> using
> > > it. I think its utter crap that you can only access 15% of the
> > > functions from the front panel...
> > >
> > > Anyway, I guess what I am asking is this: does the editor use
> normal
> > > CCs to control the AN200, or is there some other protocol being
> used?
> > > If it's just CCs, I should be able to program the knobs on my XL7
> to
> > > get similar results.
> > >
> > > Anybody doing this with any sort of success?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > D
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >

very offtopic mail, but...

What in blazes happened to decent email programs with decent indenting
and usage of > thingies? Not to mention the superfluous quoting (had to
delete about 100+ lines of yahoo-added-mailinglist-crap at the bottom of
the eh.. 3 quoted messages) and top-posting.

All the linewrappings. Scary, makes it rather unreadable.
For those using outlook (moan), try this program:

http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/

Thank you in advance.

(or well, if this is inappropriate, flame/mod me away ;) )

--
Gerald Raucamp - cavey@...
http://www.cavey.nl

Re: Editing the AN200 without using the software editor

2005-11-03 by Jon

--- In AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com, "soundcrafter" <aurastar@c...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone here tried doing deep editing on the AN200 without using
> the software editor? I have the editor, but I really don't like using
> it. I think its utter crap that you can only access 15% of the
> functions from the front panel...

Please keep in mind that Yamaha is not the first manufacturer to employ the design
philosophy of a full featured product with limited front panel interoperability (PLG150-AN/
AN200). This has been a practice for many years now by the likes of Lexicon, Boss/Roland,
E-mu/Ensoniq, etc. The benefit is obvious - you get a great sounding piece of kit at a
reduced cost. The downside is equally obvious - you either sacrifice some programability
or adopt new work habits, i.e., software editor/librarians and remote control surfaces.
Since we don't live in a one size fits all workd it should be apparent this approach is not
ideally suited for every user - and often what sounds like a great idea in theory is less
workable in practice (as you seem to have discovered for yourself).


> Anyway, I guess what I am asking is this: does the editor use normal
> CCs to control the AN200, or is there some other protocol being used?
> If it's just CCs, I should be able to program the knobs on my XL7 to
> get similar results.

The editor is undoubtedly using SysEx.

Have you tried using AN1xEdit or are you using either AN200 Editor (AN Expert Editor) or
the AN Plugiin for XG Works exclusively?

Do you have a copy of the AN200 Owner's manual? If not, you'll find links to the download
PDF here:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list/links

If you turn to the Appendix you'll find chapters on the MIDI Data Format and MIDI
Implementation Chart. The MIDI Data Format on pages 118-119 give an overview of which
MIDI CCs are used for what along with a run down on the corresponding SysEx values.
From page 119 onward is the detailed SysEx documentation.

If you want to program either a hardware or software control surface for your AN200 then
the simplest approach would be the CC route - see paragraph "1.2.18 Others" on page
118 for a concise breakdown, but this will not advance matters beyond what you can
achieve utilizing the AN200 front panel knobs.

I can't imagine programming the XL7 Knobs to send SysEx strings would be much fun :-(
Think I'd rather approach it with a dedicted control surface that allows ofr SysEx strings -
like a Peavey 1600x or some such simlar box. There are many resources in the Files
section here at Yahoo! Groups for download and I know that at least one of the PLG150-
AN Environments for Logic was programmed extesively using SysEx strings and NRPNs -
you could reverse engineer this without too much effort if you're not up to programming
the strings yourself - or you could always capture them using a monitoring tool such as
MIDI Ox (yes, I know MIDI Ox does much more than that - don't start emailing me to let
me know otherwise...) Since the PLG150-AN is essentially a AN200 you get pretty far with
this data.

HTH

Jon

Re: [AN1x] Editing the AN200 without using the software editor

2005-11-03 by cavey@raketnet.nl

On Wed Nov 02 2005, Summa <flotorian@...> wrote:
> My guess is that CCs won't be sufficient for the amount of parameters the AN200
> use, you probably need sysex commands to access all the functions...
>
> ...Summa
>
>
Now I'm kind of wondering about this. Since most people have the problem
of getting the AN1x editor to work in windows or mac osx (I won't even
go into my problem yet... Linux ;) )... I have been running around with
programming an editor myself. There are just a couple of problems.

a) What messages (either midi or sysex) does the AN1x (or AN200 for that
matter) take? I know there are some of them explained in the manual at
the end... and there should be some datalist book somewhere? Does that
one explain a bit more about all the commands?

b) I have never programmed midi calls before

c) I wouldn't really know which environment to use. Main idea would be
to go with GTK, since that is rather platform independant

d) It is just an idea I'm running around with, no idea whether I'll ever
go through with it, since it is a daunting task, but not impossible.
Nice little project, but needs some research in advance

So, anyone familiar with the inner workings of the AN1x? ^_^ Or gui
building etc? ^_^

Pointers would be great as well.

@jon: thanks for the netiquette link.

--
Gerald Raucamp - cavey@...
http://www.cavey.nl

Re: [AN1x] Editing the AN200 without using the software editor

2005-11-04 by Jon

--- In AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com, cavey@r... wrote:
>
> On Wed Nov 02 2005, Summa <flotorian@f...> wrote:
> > My guess is that CCs won't be sufficient for the amount of parameters the AN200
> > use, you probably need sysex commands to access all the functions...
> >
> > ...Summa
> >
> >
> Now I'm kind of wondering about this. Since most people have the problem
> of getting the AN1x editor to work in windows or mac osx (I won't even
> go into my problem yet... Linux ;) )...

I have to dispute your claim 'most people have the problem of getting the AN1x editor to
work in windows or mac osx'. What _exactly_ are you basing this assumption on?

I've been able to run all the Mac editors under Classic within OS X and have successfuly
helped others to do so. And I'm not even the person who reported it to the list to begin
with! :-)

I'd hazard it's a safe bet the majority of AN1xEdit users are Windows based and there are
few instance where somebody has posted a question to this list which hasn't been met
with assistance. A cursory search of the list archives will prove this out. There are also
some terrific support docs in the Files section here at Yahoo! Groups contributed by Gary
Gregson.

> I have been running around with
> programming an editor myself. There are just a couple of problems.

And are you prepared to offer troubleshooting and assitance to your user base when
somebody asserts they can't get it to work under Windows or OS X?

>
> a) What messages (either midi or sysex) does the AN1x (or AN200 for that
> matter) take? I know there are some of them explained in the manual at
> the end... and there should be some datalist book somewhere? Does that
> one explain a bit more about all the commands?

There is extensive SysEx documentation in the AN1x Data List and the AN200 Owner's
Manual. You might also take the time to review the Help file which is provided with
AN1xEdit as it contains a great deal of useful information regarding the differences
between AN1x & PLG150-AN parameters and Sys ID headers.

> b) I have never programmed midi calls before
>
> c) I wouldn't really know which environment to use. Main idea would be
> to go with GTK, since that is rather platform independant
>
> d) It is just an idea I'm running around with, no idea whether I'll ever
> go through with it, since it is a daunting task, but not impossible.
> Nice little project, but needs some research in advance
>
> So, anyone familiar with the inner workings of the AN1x? ^_^ Or gui
> building etc? ^_^
>
> Pointers would be great as well.

You'll need to take these questions to a developer specific list.

Jon

Re: [AN1x] Editing the AN200 without using the software editor

2005-11-04 by cavey@raketnet.nl

On Fri Nov 04 2005, Jon <jondl_2000@...> wrote:
> --- In AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com, cavey@r... wrote:
> >
> > Now I'm kind of wondering about this. Since most people have the problem
> > of getting the AN1x editor to work in windows or mac osx (I won't even
> > go into my problem yet... Linux ;) )...
>
> I have to dispute your claim 'most people have the problem of getting the AN1x editor to
> work in windows or mac osx'. What _exactly_ are you basing this assumption on?
>
Ah, well, yes, I have been over generalising a bit here. With 'most
people' I meant the people that seemed to have trouble getting AN1xedit
to work and have mailed this list. But it was just meant as a figure of
speech, as introduction to the questions I posted below.

> > I have been running around with
> > programming an editor myself. There are just a couple of problems.
>
> And are you prepared to offer troubleshooting and assitance to your user base when
> somebody asserts they can't get it to work under Windows or OS X?
>
Yes and no, my main development environment would be Linux, thus already
tailoring towards the more tech-savvy people. Furthermore the idea is to
open-source the project, building a community (perhaps) around it. No
commercial idea behind it. Just like with the AN1xedit. And the support?
Hmm, it "should work straight out of the box after compiling hell" ;)

Of course, the more user friendly it would turn out to be, the better,
but currently there is no way that I have found, of editing the AN1x
from a Linux based environment. An itch I might be able to scratch, if I
can get my head to it.

> >
> > a) What messages (either midi or sysex) does the AN1x (or AN200 for that
> > matter) take? I know there are some of them explained in the manual at
> > the end... and there should be some datalist book somewhere? Does that
> > one explain a bit more about all the commands?
>
> There is extensive SysEx documentation in the AN1x Data List and the AN200 Owner's
> Manual. You might also take the time to review the Help file which is provided with
> AN1xEdit as it contains a great deal of useful information regarding the differences
> between AN1x & PLG150-AN parameters and Sys ID headers.
>
Ah! The AN1x Data list, ok. Because the AN1x manual doesn't really hold
that much info. I'll check up on the Data list in the files section.

[snip the other 3 questions]
> You'll need to take these questions to a developer specific list.
>
Most likely yes :) But was just thinking I could make some inquiries
here first. Who knows whether there are more programmers on the list.

> Jon
>

--
Gerald Raucamp - cavey@...
http://www.cavey.nl

Re: [AN1x] Editing the AN200 without using the software editor

2005-11-04 by Jon

--- In AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com, cavey@r... wrote:
> >
> Ah, well, yes, I have been over generalising a bit here. With 'most
> people' I meant the people that seemed to have trouble getting AN1xedit
> to work and have mailed this list. But it was just meant as a figure of
> speech, as introduction to the questions I posted below.
>

I see where you're coming from and perhaps I was too abrupt in my response. Apologies.

> > > I have been running around with
> > > programming an editor myself. There are just a couple of problems.
> >
> > And are you prepared to offer troubleshooting and assitance to your user base when
> > somebody asserts they can't get it to work under Windows or OS X?
> >
> Yes and no, my main development environment would be Linux, thus already
> tailoring towards the more tech-savvy people. Furthermore the idea is to
> open-source the project, building a community (perhaps) around it. No
> commercial idea behind it. Just like with the AN1xedit. And the support?
> Hmm, it "should work straight out of the box after compiling hell" ;)
>
> Of course, the more user friendly it would turn out to be, the better,
> but currently there is no way that I have found, of editing the AN1x
> from a Linux based environment. An itch I might be able to scratch, if I
> can get my head to it.

You might want to seek out the fellow who ported ZynAddSubFX from Win to OS X. I know
he is an active proponent of open source and might help direct you to some resources:

http://70.24.158.31:8080/zyn_mac/index.html


> > There is extensive SysEx documentation in the AN1x Data List and the AN200 Owner's
> > Manual. You might also take the time to review the Help file which is provided with
> > AN1xEdit as it contains a great deal of useful information regarding the differences
> > between AN1x & PLG150-AN parameters and Sys ID headers.
> >
> Ah! The AN1x Data list, ok. Because the AN1x manual doesn't really hold
> that much info. I'll check up on the Data list in the files section.

The Data List is VERY thorough as is the SysEx implementation in the AN200 Owner's
Manual.


> [snip the other 3 questions]
> > You'll need to take these questions to a developer specific list.
> >
> Most likely yes :) But was just thinking I could make some inquiries
> here first. Who knows whether there are more programmers on the list.

I don't know of any specific resources, but I'm certain there must be something here at
Yahoo! GRoups.

Jon

Re: Editing the AN200 without using the software editor

2005-11-05 by Kevin Conder

cavey wrote:

> I won't even go into my problem yet... Linux

Have you tried Wine? Anyway, an Open Source replacement would be cool
too.

> I know there are some of them explained in the manual
> at the end... and there should be some datalist book
> somewhere?

Here you go:
http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/emi/english/synth/AN1XE2.PDF

> c) I wouldn't really know which environment to use. Main idea would
> be to go with GTK, since that is rather platform independant

Actually, QT is more mature as a cross-platform toolkit. GTK+ on
Windows is coming along nicely but I don't know how good GTK+ is for OS
X. Have you considered starting with a simpler cross-platform toolkit
like WxWidgets (http://www.wxwindows.org/) instead?

> So, anyone familiar with the inner workings of the AN1x? ^_^ Or gui
> building etc? ^_^

Perhaps you could reverse-engineer AN1xEdit. Of course, I don't know
the legal ramifications for doing that. For MIDI programming under
Linux, look around on this page:
http://linux-sound.org/one-page.html

If you're going to use GTK+, the Glade tool (http://glade.gnome.org/)
would be helpful for GUI building. But no matter which toolkit you use,
you'll probably have to start with a Canvas object and build your own
widgets (like the Free EG editor). Good luck!


--
Kevin Conder




__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [AN1x] Re: Editing the AN200 without using the software editor

2005-11-05 by Peter Korsten

Kevin Conder schreef:

> cavey wrote:
>
>>c) I wouldn't really know which environment to use. Main idea would
>>be to go with GTK, since that is rather platform independant
>
> Actually, QT is more mature as a cross-platform toolkit. GTK+ on
> Windows is coming along nicely but I don't know how good GTK+ is for OS
> X. Have you considered starting with a simpler cross-platform toolkit
> like WxWidgets (http://www.wxwindows.org/) instead?

Or you could use Java. It runs on anything that has a Java Virtual
Machine, which is all the mainstream operating systems. Now Java is not
very good at real-time applications (although it is by no means slow,
take my word on it), but editing a synth is not a real-time application.

For the record, at work I'm happily running Solaris 8 on a Sun SPARC
system, with Gnome as the desktop environment. But it has to be a very
good reason for me not to write a program in Java.

- Peter