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Re: [AN1x] Sysex error messages

Re: [AN1x] Sysex error messages

2002-05-23 by terryfunken@aol.com

In a message dated 23/5/02 3:44:32 am, edward.edwards@... writes:

>No
>
>culture has a monolopy on truth and righteousness - that should be considered
>a
>
>fact by all historians.
>

Absolutely.

>
>
>====> Right, I agree this doesn't belong on this list.  This does:

I apologise, but, I was pissed off that my views about something I bought 
(for a heck of a lot of money at the time- lacked a decent keyboard), was 
contradicted with the same amount of lack of respect for my judgement that 
made me respond with my last post (2 wrongs don't make a right).
>
>
>
>Does anyone else get sysex error messages when ANY sysex data goes by the
>AN1x?

In fact this is PRECISELY the reason I found and joined this list in the 
first place. I get these messages everytime I use the bi-timbral mode when 
running from Logic Audio on a Mac. Even if there is no sysex data present. 

When this happens, I also get the problem of both channels 'locking' 
together- and if I want to tweek one set of parameters on one one channel- it 
will change the other parameters on the other channel too. The only way 
around it, is to do a sysex dump and then reset the AN1x- which is a right 
pain in the arse!

Tom 

(and yes- nobody has given me a sufficient explanation of why this happens- 
apart from "I should use a different midi box"- which I don't think is a 
reliable explanation- because on THAT midi box, I have my Nord Modular 
connected to it as well as Logic- and I have NO PROBLEM with that connection. 
Which concludes that this is the fault of the AN1x!)

Re: [AN1x] Sysex error messages

2002-05-23 by Ed Edwards

Ah-HA!  Another curious customer reports undocumented confusion with powerful
but little-supported keyboard operating system.

Yeah, like "live with it" is useful advice from any company....  But sometimes
it's like LOVE, man.  You live with the bad points anyway.

Thanks, I was just wondering if it was my particular board that was farting at
me or if it was a known bug.  I guess I'll have to live with it also... I have
been anyway.

Ed Edwards
Leader: Ezekiel's Wheel      \ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffdRetro-Progressive Rock\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd
http://www.untiedmusic.com/ezekiel
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/227/ezekiels_wheel.html
\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd
>

Re: [AN1x] Sysex error messages

2002-05-23 by jondl_2000

--- In AN1x-list@y..., terryfunken@a... wrote:
> 
> (and yes- nobody has given me a sufficient explanation of why 
this happens- 
> apart from "I should use a different midi box"- which I don't 
think is a 
> reliable explanation- because on THAT midi box, I have my 
Nord Modular 
> connected to it as well as Logic- and I have NO PROBLEM with 
that connection. 
> Which concludes that this is the fault of the AN1x!)


Your original posts received a number of replies from myself, 
Gary, and others specific to your SysEx issue - to summarize the 
situation as ""I should use a different midi box" is to over simplify 
the situation. This is a two way street - you need to actually *try* 
the suggestions at some point and provide feedback as to what 
worked or didn't work in your set-up. There is often not a single 
right answer to a given situation.

There have been frequent posts regarding the AN1x and Logic 
Environments - I've replied to each of them with the best advice I 
could possibly provide - and yet somehow you repeatedly insist 
each situation is identical to your own when the circumstance 
clearly differ. Have you read or try ANY of the advice provided? I 
cannot tell from any of your posts to the list.

Joining a mailing list does not 'entitle' you to anything. We're all 
doing the best we can and it behooves you to work with us or 
give it a rest.

Jon

Re: [AN1x] Sysex error messages

2002-05-24 by terryfunken@aol.com

In a message dated 23/5/02 6:44:03 pm, jondl_2000@... writes:

>There have been frequent posts regarding the AN1x and Logic 
>Environments - I've replied to each of them with the best advice I 
>could possibly provide - and yet somehow you repeatedly insist 
>each situation is identical to your own when the circumstance 
>clearly differ. Have you read or try ANY of the advice provided? I 
>cannot tell from any of your posts to the list.
>
>Joining a mailing list does not 'entitle' you to anything. We're all 
>doing the best we can and it behooves you to work with us or 
>give it a rest.

Jon,

Please don't belittle me. If I had the money to be able to experiment a bit 
more, then I would. Yes I did try your examples- but if you can remember, 
your suggestions were that I try using a serial interface instead of a USB 
one. My reply to that was that I get exactly the same results with that 
combination too. What baffles me- is that using my Nord Modular running with 
a USB interface-and that makes huge strings of sysex, I have NO problem- but 
it DOES have a seperate line in and out for it's editor (unlike the AN1x).

I think one of the major outcomes to this is that I am using a Mac and not a 
PC- and I don't think the Mac version of the AN1x edit is as reliable as the 
PC version (I always become immeadiately suspicious when software made for PC 
has been ported over to work on a Mac)- I mean NO ONE came back and told me 
that they have no problems using the Editor with their Mac. When I tried the 
AN edit- sending info TO the synth- I didn't have too much of a problem 
(although I still get that error prompt from time to time)- It was when I 
came to uploading to the editor- that's where nothing happened. 

Your other suggestion was to use the Logic Enviroment as an editor. Well 
that's fine, but I get really bored with having to import enviroments all the 
time. I wanted to upload in the first place as opposed to just downloading. 

Tom

Re: [AN1x] Sysex error messages

2002-05-24 by Phil

To wrote:

"...I mean NO ONE came back and told me that they have no problems using the
Editor with their Mac."


FWIW, I have no problems running AN1x Edit on a Mac G4 450MHz, OMS v2.3.8,
Emagic AMT8 USB 8x8 MIDI interface.

Phil

Re: [AN1x] Sysex error messages

2002-05-24 by terryfunken@aol.com

In a message dated 24/5/02 9:19:57 am, terryfunken@... writes:

>Well 
>that's fine, but I get really bored with having to import enviroments all
>the 
>time.
Perhaps I should re-phrase this as "I don't actually know how to do it". The 
Logic manual is so teutonic, that I find it pretty illogical!- Say I think- 
how do I want to know about editing something- i'll look it up in the index 
and I can't find any reference to it.- Fortunately the Emagic support in this 
country are pretty helpful!

Tom

Re: [AN1x] Sysex error messages

2002-05-24 by terryfunken@aol.com

In a message dated 24/5/02 9:38:59 am, accession@... writes:

>FWIW, I have no problems running AN1x Edit on a Mac G4 450MHz, OMS v2.3.8,
>Emagic AMT8 USB 8x8 MIDI interface.
>

Phil

Ahh- that's interesting- you're using an AMT8, and not midiman. I'd love to 
get an emagic interface- but the price is pretty hefty.

So if you request an upload, it works everytime?? (that's AN to Mac??)

Tom

Re: Sysex error messages

2002-05-24 by jondl_2000

--- In AN1x-list@y..., terryfunken@a... wrote:

> I think one of the major outcomes to this is that I am using a 
Mac and not a 
> PC- and I don't think the Mac version of the AN1x edit is as 
reliable as the 
> PC version (I always become immeadiately suspicious when 
software made for PC 
> has been ported over to work on a Mac)- I mean NO ONE came 
back and told me 
> that they have no problems using the Editor with their Mac. 

Long reply...

If you search the archives you will find many instance of Mac 
user's - such as myself - with serial port MIDI Interfaces using 
AN1xEdit successfully. There have been an equal number of 
reports from Mac users with low cost USB MIDI Interfaces from 
the likes of Opcode, MIDIMAN and even Emagic where SysEx 
transmissions from the AN1x to AN1xEdit via MIDI fail - just as 
you experience. I have tried at least two of the above brands in 
combination with multiple extension sets for USB support on the 
Mac under every Mac OS update since OS 8.6. I met with no 
success and have since forgone any further attempts (I've even 
sold off both my USB MIDI Interfaces.) You'll find many of my 
reports in the archives from this list and, if anybody is interested, 
I'll provide the archives from the 1st incarnation of AN1x-list 
hosted by Teklab - you'll see how long this problem has dogged 
Mac users.

The only USB MIDI Interfaces reported to work reliably with 
AN1xEdit under the Mac OS are the mid and high end models 
from Emagic - specifically, the AMT8 and Unitor MkII. This doesn't 
mean that other models won't work - it simply means no other 
models have been *reported* to work. Here is a thread detailing 
some unexpected problems with the AMT8 so you can see that 
no solution is perfect:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list/message/5053

It's incredibly difficult to solicit a response from users once the 
initial question has been answered - seldom do I receive a 
response saying 'yes, this worked' - but you can always rely on a 
follow up question if the suggestion didn't work or if it wasn't 
communicated clearly. My resources are limited too and I won't 
have the luxury of upgrading to an AMT8 this year so I can 
sympathize with your plight.

You did mention that you had a serial port MIDI Interface at one 
point - or am I mistaken? If so, then there is a known bug with 
AN1xEdit & OMS where the AN1xEdit loses its connection to OMS 
and needs to be 'reminded' for it to work reliably. I've detailed this 
procedure in the following document:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list/files/Tips%20and%20Tr
icks/tt_an1xedit_not_receive.htm

If this does not work for you then .sit your OMS Set-up document 
and either send it to me direct or upload it to the files sections 
here at Yahoo! and I'll see if I can spot anything amiss. There's 
probably nothing wrong with it since you've never mentioned any 
other issues.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list/files

There are many reasons why SysEx transmission over USB can 
be unreliable. For the record, the AN1x is NOT the only MIDI 
device I've had problem with over USB. I use a freeware 
application called 'ASR-X Editor' with my Ensoniq ASR-X Pro 
sampler. This app is simple to use and had proven to be rock 
steady under OS 8.6 > OS 9.2.2 with OMS 2.3.8 and a serial MIDI 
Interface. However, it fails miserably when used with a USB MIDI 
Interface. I have little doubt the problem is inherent to OMS since 
this api has not been updated since Gibson put the nails in 
Opcode's coffin (four years ago.) Nor will it see an update as 
Gibson retained no Opcode programmers and the developer of 
OMS, Doug Wyatt, has been an Apple employee for years now. 
He is a member of the team who developed Core MIDI and Core 
Audio services under OS X which I for one am very excited about 
- now if only I could afford a new Mac that would run OS X without 
pooping out...but don't expect AN1xEdit to be available for OS X:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list/message/4584

Have you ever tested a bulk dump from your AN1x via USB to 
Logic or a generic SysEx librarian (such as SysEx v4.52 available 
here http://www.pobox.com/~sgrace/sysex/SysEx452.hqx) I have 
and it seems to work okaaaay. Gary once checked out a dump 
for me (which I still have) and there were some lost bits but most 
of it was intact. You need to exercise caution for this to work 
successfully and stick to '1 vce' or '1-64 vce'. Keep in mind that a 
generic dump to any app does not provide for ANY error checking 
specific to the file headers as occurs with AN1xEdit - therefore, 
you are literally dumping everything all at once - a true hit or miss 
analogy.

The fact that your Nord Micro Mod works with OMS via USB is not 
irrelevant but the problem with this example is the fact that 
System Exclusive data is exactly that - exclusive to each 
manufacturer. The packet sizes of SysEx data for your Nord are 
*probably* much smaller, i.e., more efficient, than the packet size 
transmitted by the AN1x. For details on the SysEx size of AN1x 
data, please review Gary's reply from last winter:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list/message/5304
and
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list/message/5290

If your problems with Logic Audio persist, then upload a .sit of 
your .lso file to the Files section and I'll try it in Logic Audio on my 
end. Maybe there is a MIDI loop in your configuration - you 
already indicated you double checked the Port and Channel 
settings so something else may be going on. If you don't want 
my help then you might email Len Sasso at Swiftkick.com and 
maybe he can help. This man is *the* Environment Guru and a 
real gentlemen to boot. There is also a Mac specific Logic list 
here at Yahoo and a terrific Logic forum can be found at 
http://www.sonikmatter.com/ IF you need help imprting.exporting 
an environment layer, here is a write up I made for ASRXCITE 
that you might use as a starting off point 
http://www.geocities.com/asrxcite/asrx/tt_logicenv_intro.htm 
Otherwise, Chapter 5 of the Logic Manual or the SwitcKick.com 
web site will have ALL the answers. There are some 
EXCELLENT - free - .PDFs for download from SwiftKick.com

Hope this helps.

Jon

Re: [AN1x] Re: Sysex error messages

2002-05-24 by Bruce Wahler

Tom,

Let me add a bit of information to the fray:

1.  To my understanding, MIDIman is essentially a PC company.  That doesn't mean that they cannot program Mac drivers, but their real expertise seems to be in the PC domain.  If you are concerned about ported PC software, you probably should be at least as concerned about ported PC drivers, which are the REAL interface to the world.

2.  I've recently come to learn that MIDIman hardware sometimes doesn't follow the "letter of the law" regarding MIDI specifications, even though it certainly obeys the "spirit."  I use (and sell) MIDI Solutions devices, which are all line-powered.  Since the MIDI spec doesn't actually support line powering of devices, the boxes probably depend on MIDI hardware following the published guidelines in the MIDI spec., which give a recommended circuit using +5V TTL logic.  Well, guess what?  MIDI is actually a current-loop interface, and doesn't care much about what voltage the current is supplied from, or what kind of devices are providing it -- but MIDI Solutions' gear does, because they're siphoning off a little of the power.  I've found that some M-Sol'n devices work with some MIDIman USB products, but not others.  Conversely, I've found that M-Sol'n devices seem to work with every keyboard, module, and non-USB interface I've ever tried -- in any configuration -- with the exception
 of the Voce MIDI Drawbar Module, which again varies from the published MIDI spec in its hardware.

Does this have anything to do with your situation?  Hard to say, but it demonstrates that MIDIman is not afraid to make changes to provide their products at attractive price points.  Perhaps they are not following the USB interface spec to the letter, or using alternative hardware there, too.

3.  Jon's suggestion about approved MIDI interfaces is valid.  While the concept of hardware that "fits" the computer, but doesn't work with it, is a relatively new thing in the Mac world -- where the OS, interfaces, and platform have been closely held -- it's something we PC folks have had to deal with for many years, thanks to the open architecture of our boxes.  Open standards like USB bring the Mac into our world, so to speak.  NOBODY tests every computer design with every piece of peripheral hardware available and every software application:  not Apple, not IBM, not Compaq; certainly not smaller companies like Emagic, Steinberg, or Cakewalk.  It's not a healthy way to run a business, because the number of combinations is astronomical.  Good testers go out and buy whatever hardware and software their budget allows, then try to set up as many unique situations as possible.  But, they're going to miss things.  If you want to minimize the risk of problems, and get support if you 
actually find something wrong, the best bet is to use the peripherals that the other components have been tested with.

Sometimes, this means spending more money.  I used to design PCs for a couple of different tier-one manufacturers, and we *always* tested new products with the established "benchmark" devices, and tested some amount of other devices as time allowed.  If your PC didn't work with an HP Laserjet printer, we certainly wanted to know what was wrong; if it didn't work with a clone printer that you got at a great price, you might not get the same level of help.  And even if we did help, if the problem was found to be faulty hardware or drivers on the clone printer, we weren't likely to change our PC to compensate.

Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions\ufffd   http://consult.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group and HiNote moderator
978.386.7389  voice/fax
bruce@...

[AN1x] Re: Sysex error messages

2002-05-24 by jondl_2000

--- In AN1x-list@y..., Bruce Wahler <bruce@a...> wrote:
> 
> Let me add a bit of information to the fray:
> 
> 2.  I've recently come to learn that MIDIman hardware 
sometimes doesn't follow the "letter of the law" regarding MIDI 
specifications, even though it certainly obeys the "spirit."  I use 
(and sell) MIDI Solutions devices, which are all line-powered.  
Since the MIDI spec doesn't actually support line powering of 
devices, the boxes probably depend on MIDI hardware following 
the published guidelines in the MIDI spec., which give a 
recommended circuit using +5V TTL logic.  Well, guess what?  
MIDI is actually a current-loop interface, and doesn't care much 
about what voltage the current is supplied from, or what kind of 
devices are providing it -- but MIDI Solutions' gear does, because 
they're siphoning off a little of the power.  I've found that some 
M-Sol'n devices work with some MIDIman USB products, but not 
others.  Conversely, I've found that M-Sol'n devices seem to work 
with every keyboard, module, and non-USB interface I've ever 
tried -- in any configuration -- with the exception
>  of the Voce MIDI Drawbar Module, which again varies from the 
published MIDI spec in its hardware.
> 
> Does this have anything to do with your situation?  Hard to say, 
but it demonstrates that MIDIman is not afraid to make changes 
to provide their products at attractive price points.  Perhaps they 
are not following the USB interface spec to the letter, or using 
alternative hardware there, too.

I find this very interesting. I've been trying to help a fellow on the 
ASR-X list sort out his OMS/FreeMIDI configuration on a late 
model Apple PowerBook using a MIDIman MACMAN Serial MIDI 
Interface.

Once we got on the same page for his configuration, i.e., OMS 
Set-up document, the set-up routine failed to identify the 
MACMAN - which is a standard, serial port MIDI Interface. I did 
some research and it turns out there were two potential points of 
failure from which we were going to continue troubleshooting:

First, the PowerBook he was using was a model 1400 which 
had a single, shared serial port for both Printer/Modem 
connections. Obviously this was implemented to reduce the 
costs associated with two serial ports. This was a suspect 
decision on Apple part to begin with. I have a *vague* 
recollection of this being acknowledged as a problem in some 
Mac forums and letter columns of popular music publications 
(Keyboard, EM) some years ago.

The second issue was the power supplied to the MACMAN via 
the PB1400 serial port. Much of the documentation for OMS and 
the MACMAN specifically indicates late model PowerBooks 
provided insufficient power via the serial port for use with a MIDI 
Interface (the doc references the 500 series which was available 
*just about* when Apple introduced USB to its product line.) 

What's curious is that MIDIMAN equipped the MACMAN with a DC 
voltage adapter jack - which, of course the user did not have on 
hand to test with - so, obviously, they (MIDIMAN) were aware of 
this potential pitfall and acknowledged it in the doc no less! Not 
too unsavvy for a PC company, no? ha ha ha :-) Anyway, my 
'feeling' towards MIDIMAN are less harsh than some and kinder 
than others but in a nutshell, I won't spend any more money on 
their MIDI Interfaces for Mac OS. I haven't researched the M-Audio 
(sister company to MIDIman) Audio Interfaces well enough to 
comment but they were early to market with OS X drivers. Go 
figure? 

The other user was going to contact MIDIMAN tech support 
himself and see what they advice - I'm afraid I suspect the 
answer :-( But that PB1400 doesn't have enough horsepower to 
run the MIDI apps he wanted anyway ;-)

regards,

Jon

Re: [AN1x] Re: Sysex error messages

2002-05-25 by terryfunken@aol.com

In a message dated 24/5/02 3:26:51 pm, jondl_2000@... writes:

>Long reply...
>
>If you search the archives you will find many instance of Mac 
>user's - such as myself - with serial port MIDI Interfaces using 
>AN1xEdit successfully. There have been an equal number of 
>reports from Mac users with low cost USB MIDI Interfaces from 
>the likes of Opcode, MIDIMAN and even Emagic where SysEx 
>transmissions from the AN1x to AN1xEdit via MIDI fail

Dear Jon,

Many thanks for such a detailed reply. All is not lost because this
Mac that I am typing this letter on is a beige 333 G3-although its got USB
and Firewire installed, its also got a serial Modem port. I noticed
from another one of your posts that you market midi interfaces?
Can you recommend a cheap(ish) External dual serial interface- 
which is known to work? (and can be used in the background with 
the Modem?)- 

I also have a Lombard 400mhz powerbook with video mirroring which
I now intend to use for music,- this G3 tower will be used for editing
and internet purposes only.

Have you ever tested a bulk dump from your AN1x via USB to 
Logic or a generic SysEx librarian (such as SysEx v4.52 available 
here http://www.pobox.com/~sgrace/sysex/SysEx452.hqx) I have 
and it seems to work okaaaay.

I have done this- and it has been sucessful. I used to do all dumps with
an Alesis Datadisk- but as soon as I discovered that Logic dumps were
possible, I've continued to do them. As for OMS, it took me ages to work that
out- but I feel I'm now fairly confident with that. But I admit that I am at
that stage where- now it's working- I don't dare interfere with it again! 
hehehe.
I still will look into those links that you gave me.

Thanks again.

Tom

Re: [AN1x] Re: Sysex error messages

2002-05-25 by terryfunken@aol.com

Hi Bruce!


In a message dated 24/5/02 5:01:47 pm, bruce@... writes:

>1.  To my understanding, MIDIman is essentially a PC company.  That doesn't
>mean that they cannot program Mac drivers, but their real expertise seems
>to be in the PC domain.  If you are concerned about ported PC software,
>you probably should be at least as concerned about ported PC drivers, which
>are the REAL interface to the world.

Yeah- Drivers/software- it's all the same to me- yes I am very aware of this!
- I tried out Reaktor the other day, but it kept on crashing my computer.- 
When
it did work, the CPU level meter remained quite high. It is interesting that 
programs
like Absynth, Cellsynth, Ableton live etc- which were originally created for 
Mac 
(and ported over to PC) work really well, but the other way round, they fail. 
I suppose
this is a good case for writing code for that specific device only, but 
unfortunately
with market forces and having to eat etc that's very rare nowadays- which is 
a shame.

 I use (and sell) MIDI Solutions devices,
>which are all line-powered.  

Yeah sorry Jon- I got you mixed up with Bruce there! (damn dyslexia!!!!)

>
>Sometimes, this means spending more money.  I used to design PCs for a
>couple of different tier-one manufacturers, and we *always* tested new
>products with the established "benchmark" devices, and tested some amount
>of other devices as time allowed.  If your PC didn't work with an HP Laserjet
>printer, we certainly wanted to know what was wrong; if it didn't work
>with a clone printer that you got at a great price, you might not get the
>same level of help.  And even if we did help, if the problem was found
>to be faulty hardware or drivers on the clone printer, we weren't likely
>to change our PC to compensate.

Here we go- spend some MORE money hahahahaha!!!- There's a really interesting
article with Howie B in this month's "Sound On Sound" magazine- exemplifiying
this very point! (and If I had a spare 10 Grand- I too would go out and buy 2 
Notrons, 
2 Nord lead 3's and a Mackie 24 channel desk!!). It's also highly irritating 
that in 
a way we have (as musicians) become the beta-testers for the latest computer
hardware. There ARE good people around (like Digital Village here in 
Birmingham), 
who will loan you out the stuff to test before you buy- but it is rare.

Tom

Re: [AN1x] Re: Sysex error messages

2002-05-25 by Bruce Wahler

Hi Tom,

>Here we go- spend some MORE money hahahahaha!!!- There's a really interesting
>article with Howie B in this month's "Sound On Sound" magazine- exemplifiying
>this very point! (and If I had a spare 10 Grand- I too would go out and buy 2 
>Notrons, 
>2 Nord lead 3's and a Mackie 24 channel desk!!). It's also highly irritating 
>that in 
>a way we have (as musicians) become the beta-testers for the latest computer
>hardware. There ARE good people around (like Digital Village here in 
>Birmingham), 
>who will loan you out the stuff to test before you buy- but it is rare.

I recognize your dilemma, and I'm not saying that you should go out and spend a lot of money.  I'm just saying that there is a downside to selecting the lower-cost alternative.  I'm an engineer, and I do this all the time -- and I spend a lot of time and effort getting things to work, sometimes!  Typically, the lower-cost devices are tested less; and they use lower-cost components, which may seem to meet the needs of the design, but might have subtle differences from the originals.

If you look at the problem from a computer (or software) designer's point of view, when trying to "test everything" related to computers and music:

1 computer * 40 apps/variants * 20 MIDI interfaces * 50 synths/modules * 1 hr. testing
= 40,000 hours!!!

No one can afford that, and the boredom that would come from repeating the same test over and over would lead to missing some things, anyway -- like your shipping deadline!  ;^)  Now factor in an out-of-production synth (the Annie), an interface that has at least some report of issues (the MIDIman), and I practically guarantee that the developer has NOT tested your setup.

If you want to be certain that your setup has been tested, then only use "industry standard" devices -- which unfortunately, doesn't include the AN1x.  (We're a very loyal -- but rather small -- niche group, IMHO.)  If you want to save money or vary from the "average" user, fine, but recognize that you may well have some difficulties along the way.

The "musician as beta tester" dilemma is real, but it's also part of the proliferation of cheap, high-power musical electronics -- sort of a Yin/Yang relationship.  Today, my PC + AN1x + S4 + software is more powerful than a Fairlight CMS III, at a fraction of the cost.  The good thing about the Fairlight was that it just sort of WORKED; the bad thing was that it cost more than a healthy down payment on a house!  In the US today, average engineering time is probably $60-70/hour, and even if we drop back testing to a "practical" 3,000 hours, that's $180K-210K.  You have to sell a lot of product to cover that cost, or sell the product at Fairlight/Synclavier prices.  The alternative is to test only certain "mainstream" configurations, and live with the fallout.

You were asking for a low-cost, yet reliable, MIDI interface.  [I don't sell computer interfaces, BTW.  :^(  ]  Notice that you want it reliable, yet want not to pay a lot for it.  I'm not trying to belittle you:  Your financial situation is legitimate, and you're not even alone.  It's just that nothing is free, so tradeoffs between cost and performance are made every day.  Let's say that I decide to make my own MIDI module.  I plan to market it on my own, so I think I can build it for $375, and sell it for $500 -- a nice profit, right?  OK, now I start testing it and find that it has a couple of problems with certain MOTU interfaces, and I need to add $75 worth of fixes to the design, plus spend and extra 400 hours working on and testing it -- there goes my profit.  I could still sell them, but at $50/unit, unless I can build them in 10 minutes each, and sell a bunch of them, I'd probably be better off doing something else.  I could raise the price to $600, but my market research
 shows that $500 is a "sweet spot" for my potential customers, and I'm only going to sell half as many units if I raise the price.  So, I've either got to release a product that has issues with some MOTU gear, or take a risk on selling an over-priced product.  Either way, I'm going to piss off some potential customers.

Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions\ufffd   http://consult.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group and HiNote moderator
978.386.7389  voice/fax
bruce@...

[AN1x] Re: Sysex error messages

2002-05-25 by jondl_2000

--- In AN1x-list@y..., terryfunken@a... wrote:
> 
> Many thanks for such a detailed reply. All is not lost because 
this
> Mac that I am typing this letter on is a beige 333 G3-although 
its got USB
> and Firewire installed, its also got a serial Modem port. I 
noticed
> from another one of your posts that you market midi 
interfaces?
> Can you recommend a cheap(ish) External dual serial 
interface- 
> which is known to work? (and can be used in the background 
with 
> the Modem?)- 

I have used the following serial port MIDI Interfaces successfully 
with AN1xEdit:

Opcode Studio 4 8x8
Opcode Translator Pro 2x6
Opocde Studio 128x 8x8

I made a trade for an Opcode MIDIport 32 USB MIDI Interface but 
found it was no more reliable then the MIDIman MIDISport 2x2.

And for the record, I'm using a ADS Tech USB PCI Adapter card 
in a desktop, beige G3 too. I haven't bothered putting in a 
Firewire adapter card but I did add an ATA/66 Host Card for my 
audio hard drive.

Here in the US MOTU (1st) and Opcode (2nd) were the most 
ubiquitous brand names for years. Both were Mac only for a 
looong time. Now MOTU Is still everywhere but other vendors 
have stepped up to fill the Opcode void. Consequently, there's 
more choice then ever!

All the above from Opcode can be had 2nd hand on eBay steeply 
discounted. Example: When I sold the Studio 4 three years ago 
or so I got $150. Not bad. But last fall I was able to get the Studio 
128x for $50 - great deal! I'll use it until I upgrade my entire 
system - which seems less likely to happen soon. I sold the 
Translator Pro (my least favorite) for $25 - about half of what I 
paid 3 years ago.

regards,

Jon

Re: [AN1x] Re: Sysex error messages

2002-05-26 by Ed Edwards

> 1 computer * 40 apps/variants * 20 MIDI interfaces * 50 synths/modules * 1 hr.
testing
> = 40,000 hours!!!

Holy crap, Bruce, that's the best "in a nutshell" explanation of the difficulty
of engineering products for computers I've heard in a while!

And so here goes a plus for the Mac, due to the proprietary and tighter design
interface --- this assumption of mine comes from personal near ignorance of
Macs, but from what I know OF them.  For starters - I mean like the base root
foundation of the system - all motherboards on a particular Macintosh model will
have essentially identical chips.  Not so for a PC - no way at all....  There
are so many vendors and clones and competitors whose design has been merely
SOMEWHAT tested for functionality out there that it makes you dizzy.  I own a
Gadget Labs Wave 8/24 digital recording system that was darn good for the money,
and can do 24 bit, BUT --- it's really finicky about what chipset is on the
motherboard.  And, due to Murphy's Law, I own a motherboard that it's not very
friendly with.

I'm not here to fight religious wars about computer systems.  I'm just thinking
out loud (on paper) about how hard it is to design a product that is compatible
with the widest number of system variables and therefore has the fewest number
of "bugs" from a user standpoint.  ...it boggles the mind how many things could
go wrong.

Ed Edwards
Leader: Ezekiel's Wheel      \ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffdRetro-Progressive Rock\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd
http://www.untiedmusic.com/ezekiel
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/227/ezekiels_wheel.html
\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd

Re: [AN1x] Re: Sysex error messages

2002-05-26 by Bruce Wahler

Ed,

>> 1 computer * 40 apps/variants * 20 MIDI interfaces * 50 synths/modules * 1 hr.
>testing
>> = 40,000 hours!!!

That explanation IS valid for the Mac; i.e, 1 computer.  If you want to test multiple motherboards, HDDs, etc. it gets even worse.

Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions\ufffd   http://consult.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group and HiNote moderator
978.386.7389  voice/fax
bruce@...

Re: [AN1x] Sysex error messages

2002-05-27 by Phil

Hi Tom,

"...So if you request an upload, it works every time?? (that's AN to Mac??)"

Yeah, although I do run into problems switching between my sequencer (Pro
Tools) and back to AN1x Edit. It seems AN1x Edit 'loses' control of the AMT8
(which auto-switches to its 'patchbay/non-computer mode'). This might be an
AMT8 issue though, and is rectified by re-launching AN1x Edit.


"...I'd love to get an emagic interface- but the price is pretty hefty."

Yep, they are pricey, but then it is a 8x8 interface. Secondly, and probably
most importantly, it features the Active MIDI Transmitter technology that
buffers MIDI ahead of time from the sequencer (when used with Logic), and
fires it off at the precise moment. All I need to do now is learn Logic! As
it stands, Pro Tools' MIDI gets pretty horrendous once the CPU is loaded up
with audio plug-ins.

On the downside, via the sequencer/OMS, the AMT8 appears to send MIDI Beat
Clock on either *all* channels, or none, whereas my old(er) Roland S-MPU64
(USB 4x4) allows specific channels to receive MIDI Beat Clock. With MIDI
Beat Clock active, all the MIDI activity lights flash, making them kinda
pointless, and my Proteus 2000 module (with dual MIDI ins) freaks out by
thinking the tempo is double what it really is.

I can't recall your original post, but if it was Midiman related, did you
approach their tech support? From my dealings with them in the past, they
seem friendly enough, but I understand  their Mac support trails far behind
their PC support. Kinda like MOTU and Digidesign for PC.

Phil
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: terryfunken@...
> Reply-To: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 09:53:15 EDT
> To: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [AN1x] Sysex error messages
> 
> 
> In a message dated 24/5/02 9:38:59 am, accession@... writes:
> 
>> FWIW, I have no problems running AN1x Edit on a Mac G4 450MHz, OMS v2.3.8,
>> Emagic AMT8 USB 8x8 MIDI interface.
>> 
> 
> Phil
> 
> Ahh- that's interesting- you're using an AMT8, and not midiman. I'd love to
> get an emagic interface- but the price is pretty hefty.
> 
>
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> Community email addresses:
> Post message: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
> Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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> 
> Shortcut URL to this page:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Re: [AN1x] Sysex error messages

2002-05-27 by terryfunken@aol.com

In a message dated 27/5/02 2:40:46 am, accession@... writes:

>I can't recall your original post, but if it was Midiman related, did you
>approach their tech support? From my dealings with them in the past, they
>seem friendly enough, but I understand  their Mac support trails far behind
>their PC support. Kinda like MOTU and Digidesign for PC.
>
Hi Phil,

Thanks for the text- although I think Jon has pretty much my mind to rest.

Midiman tech support?- all they ever do is to turn off the extensions NEEDED 
by OS9 !!!!
- To be honest- the tech support for midiman in Blighty are very helpful- 
they usually come up with the goods- but as Bruce and Jon point out, they're 
really a PC company. ( I always have to phone back 'cos there is only one 
MacMan!!!)

I think one day I will get an MT4- for my Powerbook, but get an Opcode ST4 or 
whatever- as recommended by Jon-for my beige G3 (and sooner rather than 
later!).

Does anybody know about the MOTU micro express?- any good?

Cheers for ALL the help!

Tom

Re: [AN1x] Sysex error messages

2002-05-27 by jondl_2000

--- In AN1x-list@y..., Phil <accession@o...> wrote:
> Hi Tom,
> 
> "...So if you request an upload, it works every time?? (that's AN 
to Mac??)"
> 
> Yeah, although I do run into problems switching between my 
sequencer (Pro
> Tools) and back to AN1x Edit. It seems AN1x Edit 'loses' control 
of the AMT8
> (which auto-switches to its 'patchbay/non-computer mode'). 
This might be an
> AMT8 issue though, and is rectified by re-launching AN1x Edit.
> 

I have a similar issue in my set-up w/ the Studio 128x. This make 
me believe it's not AMT8 specific. The 128x is configured for MTP 
emulation mode and I run Logic Audio using the internal drivers 
*and* OMS for IAC communication (which rarely ever gets used.) 
When I use a soft synth such as BATTERY or Absynth, or 
AN1xEdit, in stand alone mode w/ OMS everything works fine but 
when I quit the app and start-up Logic - the connection to the 
Studio 128x is lost. It's recovered simply by powering off & on the 
128x. 

> 
> "...I'd love to get an emagic interface- but the price is pretty 
hefty."
> 
> Yep, they are pricey, but then it is a 8x8 interface. Secondly, and 
probably
> most importantly, it features the Active MIDI Transmitter 
technology that
> buffers MIDI ahead of time from the sequencer (when used 
with Logic), and
> fires it off at the precise moment. All I need to do now is learn 
Logic! As
> it stands, Pro Tools' MIDI gets pretty horrendous once the CPU 
is loaded up
> with audio plug-ins.
> 

The beauty of LOGIC is that you can configure it to suit your 
tastes and work habits. The down side it learning 
Emagic's'logical' way of thinking to get to that point.


> On the downside, via the sequencer/OMS, the AMT8 appears to 
send MIDI Beat
> Clock on either *all* channels, or none, whereas my old(er) 
Roland S-MPU64
> (USB 4x4) allows specific channels to receive MIDI Beat Clock. 
With MIDI
> Beat Clock active, all the MIDI activity lights flash, making them 
kinda
> pointless, and my Proteus 2000 module (with dual MIDI ins) 
freaks out by
> thinking the tempo is double what it really is.
> 

Ah ha, here's were we differ - transmitting MIDI Clock to each port 
on my MIDI Inteface was was exactly what I wanted to 
accomplish. Now I can sync the Arp in the AN1x and the LFO's on 
my ASR-X to LOGIC's clock with no problem.

Using the Translator Pro attached to both Printer and Modem 
ports simultaneously was a pain in the butt with LOGIC as it only 
transmits clock to one port at a time (USB, Printer, or Modem.)

Jon

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