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OT: sync issue

OT: sync issue

2001-11-06 by Jake B

I have been a member of the list for sometime now but normally just lurk. I now have a question even though it is a bit off topic of the list. I was woundering if it would be possible to midi sync all my gear with a live drummer. Either off the hi-hat or something similar. Mostly want to be able to sync drum machine and sequencer with the live drummer.

any ideas would be great

TIA,
Jake


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [AN1x-list] OT: sync issue

2001-11-06 by Bruce Wahler

Jake,

>I have been a member of the list for sometime now but normally just
>lurk. I now have a question even though it is a bit off topic of the
>list. I was woundering if it would be possible to midi sync all my gear
>with a live drummer. Either off the hi-hat or something similar. Mostly
>want to be able to sync drum machine and sequencer with the live drummer.

A company called Kahler used to make an item called the "Human Clock" in
the late 80's that does exactly what you want. It takes a 1/4" signal in,
averages it into a tempo, and then sends that tempo out as a MIDI clock. I
don't know how hard they are to find these days.

Alternatively, many sequencers have such a function; in Cakewalk, it's
called "tap tempo." I know you can use it when recording; I'm not sure
about the live aspects.

Now, the down side: These devices/methods work wonderfully/terribly,
depending on the music's (and drummer's) style. In order for the
synchronization to work, the drummer has to put out an evenly-spaced series
of pulses to create a tempo average. What the computer/device does is keep
a running average of the time signature of the last say, 16 hits, and
figures that this sample is a good representation of the tempo as a
whole. If your drummer has been called a "metronome" as a compliment, and
plays the hi-hat or bass drum on every beat, you're going to like the
results; if your drummer plays all over the map, but always averages out to
the right beat, it's not going to work as well. Also, certain musical
styles -- reggae, for example -- push and tug on the beat throughout the
song, and this can upset the system, too.

I hope this helps.


Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions™ www.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group and HiNote moderator
978.386.7389 voice 978.964.0547 fax
bruce@...

Re: [AN1x-list] OT: sync issue

2001-11-06 by bruce w.

much easier for *you* to put out a click track to your drummer and let HIM sync to you.

But let me tell you, as a drummer, you might meet some inital resistance from him. :) Actually, it's not uncommon for drummers to use them onstage -- particularly when there's sequences involved.

John Robinson prefers a cowbell, I always liked a tamborine.

here's some info on click tracks:
http://www.schirmer.com/balletmec/09.html

bruce w
orlando, fl

----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Wahler
To: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [AN1x-list] OT: sync issue


Jake,

>I have been a member of the list for sometime now but normally just
>lurk. I now have a question even though it is a bit off topic of the
>list. I was woundering if it would be possible to midi sync all my gear
>with a live drummer. Either off the hi-hat or something similar. Mostly
>want to be able to sync drum machine and sequencer with the live drummer.

A company called Kahler used to make an item called the "Human Clock" in
the late 80's that does exactly what you want. It takes a 1/4" signal in,
averages it into a tempo, and then sends that tempo out as a MIDI clock. I
don't know how hard they are to find these days.

Alternatively, many sequencers have such a function; in Cakewalk, it's
called "tap tempo." I know you can use it when recording; I'm not sure
about the live aspects.

Now, the down side: These devices/methods work wonderfully/terribly,
depending on the music's (and drummer's) style. In order for the
synchronization to work, the drummer has to put out an evenly-spaced series
of pulses to create a tempo average. What the computer/device does is keep
a running average of the time signature of the last say, 16 hits, and
figures that this sample is a good representation of the tempo as a
whole. If your drummer has been called a "metronome" as a compliment, and
plays the hi-hat or bass drum on every beat, you're going to like the
results; if your drummer plays all over the map, but always averages out to
the right beat, it's not going to work as well. Also, certain musical
styles -- reggae, for example -- push and tug on the beat throughout the
song, and this can upset the system, too.

I hope this helps.


Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby SolutionsT www.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group and HiNote moderator
978.386.7389 voice 978.964.0547 fax
bruce@...


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Re: [AN1x-list] OT: sync issue

2001-11-06 by Jake B

The main reason I would like to have the drummer control the tempo of the
sequencers is so the band is able to change the tempo in songs live. That
"Human Clock" device sounds like it would work. Mostly just need the time
change of the drummer to change the time in the sequencer.

We are planning on setting up a monitoring system for on stage for everyone
in the band to be used live and could push a click track through that
possibly...but then again it is hard to change the tempo live.


----- Original Message -----
From: "bruce w." <brucew@...>
To: <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [AN1x-list] OT: sync issue


> much easier for *you* to put out a click track to your drummer and let HIM
sync to you.
>
> But let me tell you, as a drummer, you might meet some inital resistance
from him. :) Actually, it's not uncommon for drummers to use them onstage --
particularly when there's sequences involved.
>
> John Robinson prefers a cowbell, I always liked a tamborine.
>
> here's some info on click tracks:
> http://www.schirmer.com/balletmec/09.html
>
> bruce w
> orlando, fl
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce Wahler
> To: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [AN1x-list] OT: sync issue
>
>
> Jake,
>
> >I have been a member of the list for sometime now but normally just
> >lurk. I now have a question even though it is a bit off topic of the
> >list. I was woundering if it would be possible to midi sync all my
gear
> >with a live drummer. Either off the hi-hat or something similar.
Mostly
> >want to be able to sync drum machine and sequencer with the live
drummer.
>
> A company called Kahler used to make an item called the "Human Clock" in
> the late 80's that does exactly what you want. It takes a 1/4" signal
in,
> averages it into a tempo, and then sends that tempo out as a MIDI clock.
I
> don't know how hard they are to find these days.
>
> Alternatively, many sequencers have such a function; in Cakewalk, it's
> called "tap tempo." I know you can use it when recording; I'm not sure
> about the live aspects.
>
> Now, the down side: These devices/methods work wonderfully/terribly,
> depending on the music's (and drummer's) style. In order for the
> synchronization to work, the drummer has to put out an evenly-spaced
series
> of pulses to create a tempo average. What the computer/device does is
keep
> a running average of the time signature of the last say, 16 hits, and
> figures that this sample is a good representation of the tempo as a
> whole. If your drummer has been called a "metronome" as a compliment,
and
> plays the hi-hat or bass drum on every beat, you're going to like the
> results; if your drummer plays all over the map, but always averages out
to
> the right beat, it's not going to work as well. Also, certain musical
> styles -- reggae, for example -- push and tug on the beat throughout the
> song, and this can upset the system, too.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> -BW
>
> --
> Bruce Wahler
> Design Consultant
> Ashby SolutionsT www.ashbysolutions.com
> CloneWheel Support Group and HiNote moderator
> 978.386.7389 voice 978.964.0547 fax
> bruce@...
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: OT: sync issue

2001-11-06 by Jon

--- In AN1x-list@y..., Bruce Wahler <bruce@a...> wrote:
> Jake,
>
> >I have been a member of the list for sometime now but normally just
> >lurk. I now have a question even though it is a bit off topic of the
> >list. I was woundering if it would be possible to midi sync all my gear
> >with a live drummer. Either off the hi-hat or something similar. Mostly
> >want to be able to sync drum machine and sequencer with the live drummer.
>
> A company called Kahler used to make an item called the "Human Clock" in
> the late 80's that does exactly what you want. It takes a 1/4" signal in,
> averages it into a tempo, and then sends that tempo out as a MIDI clock. I
> don't know how hard they are to find these days.

Bruce,
Was there not also a box along similar lines called a 'Garfield Master
Beat'? Or was that a SMPTE/MTC solution? I seem to recall it was out
around the same period as the Human Clock?

Jon

Re: [AN1x-list] OT: sync issue

2001-11-06 by Elson Trinidad

At 01:16 PM 11/6/01 -0500, you wrote:
>much easier for *you* to put out a click track to your drummer and let HIM
>sync to you.
>
>But let me tell you, as a drummer, you might meet some inital resistance
>from him. :) Actually, it's not uncommon for drummers to use them onstage
>-- particularly when there's sequences involved.

In my experience, drummers don't mind hearing a click track provided it's
not a monotonous quarter-note TOK TOK TOK TOK... all the way through. In
fact that's less than ideal, since the drummer might confuse, say the "3"
as the "1" and throw everyone off...

What works for me (and the drummers that hear it) is a percussion pattern.
It might have a constant quarter-note cowbell "TOK" but it would also have
a conga pattern and shaker or tambourine for the drummer to groove and
syncopate to. Also a loud, piercing TOK TOK TOK TOK is very bad for the ears...




- 30 -
: . elson trinidad, los angeles, california, usa
: . elson@... : www.westworld.com/~elson
: . groove to the futurethnic beats of e:trinity at www.e-trinity.org and
www.mp3.com/etrinity


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [AN1x-list] Re: OT: sync issue

2001-11-07 by Bruce Wahler

Jon,

> > A company called Kahler used to make an item called the "Human Clock" in
> > the late 80's that does exactly what you want. It takes a 1/4" signal in,
> > averages it into a tempo, and then sends that tempo out as a MIDI
> clock. I
> > don't know how hard they are to find these days.
>
>Bruce,
>Was there not also a box along similar lines called a 'Garfield Master
>Beat'? Or was that a SMPTE/MTC solution? I seem to recall it was out
>around the same period as the Human Clock?

Yes, as I recall, there might have even been a third box that did about the
same thing. I never owned one, but from the reports that I received, all
of the boxes did pretty much what they were supposed to do, with the Kahler
as the king, such as it were. Unfortunately, the expectations were too
high: bands tried to use them for all sorts of music, including ballads,
reggae, and jazz. In retrospect, the expectations were almost absurd --
how can you ask a reasonably-priced machine to follow music with an uneven
tempo, in real time? -- but they managed to kill any demand for the
products, nonetheless. Kind of a shame, because they would lend themselves
to many genres: dance, techno, funk, punk, etc., etc. We would probably
be in the third or fourth generation today.

Regarding click tracks: I played live in a MIDI'ed rock band with a
drummer, and it is a difficult proposition at best. We had probably the
most ideal situation possible: a very groove-oriented drummer who enjoyed
working with sequencers, who played an mostly-electronic kit, in a band who
played only canned arrangements of songs (no extended solos and such). The
drummer was ready and willing to put on a set of headphones with the click
track, even though it diminished his ability to hear the rest of the
band. Even with that background, it was very stressful for him: While any
of us could pull the band off the click by getting over-enthused, only the
drummer could pull us back -- and the audience would certainly fault him
for any tempo mismatches.

Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions™ www.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group and HiNote moderator
978.386.7389 voice 978.964.0547 fax
bruce@...

Re: [AN1x-list] Re: OT: sync issue

2001-11-07 by bruce w.

Jon,
Sorry, but I must profess to being woefully ignorant of keyboards during the period I was with that particular band. Looking back, I think it was a drum machine, like a yamaha RX5 or Rx7 -- but the memory just isn't what it used to be. I remember that particular keyboard player had a Roland and an Ensoniq, along with a couple of boxes -- but that's about it. :)

In my old prog rock days, I used to love playing with my keyboard player's mini, and would borrow it and just twist knobs for hours. I had always been fascinated by the likes of Larry Fast, Tomita, Kraftwerk, Emerson, Wakeman -- all the 70's synth gurus.

In the 80s though, when midi came out, I lost interest, and never cared much for synths after that. No knobs, no fun.

Shamefully, I didn't really even know the difference in synths until last spring. After being out of music for a couple of years, (having traded my last set of drums in 96 for a mini-van) I decided to try to buy on old mini and give synths a go -- thus giving life to an old fantasy of being a keyboard god.

Still haven't got the mini, and I'm certainly not even close to being a minor diety, but I'm having a lot of fun. And I'm looking forward to adding a *real* AN1x to my CS6x/AN and MicroQ in just a couple of weeks!

-bruce
(former dumb drumer, now synthesist in training)




Bruce,
Was there not also a box along similar lines called a 'Garfield Master
Beat'? Or was that a SMPTE/MTC solution? I seem to recall it was out
around the same period as the Human Clock?

Jon



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