The Yamaha AN1x Synthesizer mailing list

On a totally unrelated vein:

Has anyone ever noticed that the AN1x keyboard is slightly narrower than 
"standard" key pitch?  (I'm talking 'pitch' as in screw thread, not frequency.)

I usually line up my keyboards vertically, C-over-C, mostly because I play 
organ a lot and want to simulate the dual-manual look and feel of a Hammond 
B-3.  Top and bottom C's always lined up in the past, but I wasn't able to 
do so (perfectly) when I added the AN1x to the mix.  It's not enough of a 
difference to affect playability; the total change is only about 1/2 a 
white key over five octaves.  It's just strange that there's any difference 
at all!

After I noticed the discrepancy, I've compared the AN1x to my (former) 
Roland D-50, Fatar Studio-88 MIDI controller,  Roland HP-3500s piano, and 
CX-3 organ.  All of the others line up perfectly with each other (at least, 
to the eye); only the AN1x comes up short.

I wonder if this is a Yamaha-wide "feature."  It's probably true of the 
CS1x/CS6x family, since they share a case style with the AN1x.  I don't 
think it is true of older Yamaha pieces:  I owned a DX-9 for several years, 
and used a DX-7 for a while, and I never noticed this situation when 
stacking those keyboards.  Does anyone have a Yamaha piano or other non 
-'Sx' keyboard for comparison?

Why would Yamaha do this?

Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions"
www.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group moderator
978.386.7389  voice
978.964.0547 fax
bruce@...

Ok Bruce, you've aroused my curiosity.  Here's measurements on keyboards
around my place ---

C to C inclusive measured over 5 octaves:
Yahama AN1x - 32 1/2"
Korg 01/W Pro - 32 1/2"
Ensoniq KT-76 - 33 7/16"
Mehlin & Sons Upright Grand (about 100 years old, real ivory keys) - 33 1/4"
General Music CD10 (home type keyboard with speakers) - 33 5/16"

Sorry for the English measurements (for the rest of the logical Metric
world) but I didn't have a tape that has both systems.

So, it seems you have questioned a standard which is not a standard.  Notice
how the Japanese companies have the narrower width.  (General Music is based
in Italy although that particular board could have been made anywhere.)
Would anyone else like to contribute measurements?  How about a history of
how the width of piano keys came about?

Ed Edwards
Leader: Ezekiel's Wheel      \ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffdRetro-Progressive Rock\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd
http://www.untiedmusic.com/ezekiel
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/227/ezekiels_wheel.html
\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd
\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Wahler" <bruce@...>
To: "AN1x List" <an1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 9:03 AM
Subject: [AN1x-list] Keyboard Weirdness


> On a totally unrelated vein:
>
> Has anyone ever noticed that the AN1x keyboard is slightly narrower than
> "standard" key pitch?  (I'm talking 'pitch' as in screw thread, not
frequency.)
>
> I usually line up my keyboards vertically, C-over-C, mostly because I play
> organ a lot and want to simulate the dual-manual look and feel of a
Hammond
> B-3.  Top and bottom C's always lined up in the past, but I wasn't able to
> do so (perfectly) when I added the AN1x to the mix.  It's not enough of a
> difference to affect playability; the total change is only about 1/2 a
> white key over five octaves.  It's just strange that there's any
difference
> at all!
>
> After I noticed the discrepancy, I've compared the AN1x to my (former)
> Roland D-50, Fatar Studio-88 MIDI controller,  Roland HP-3500s piano, and
> CX-3 organ.  All of the others line up perfectly with each other (at
least,
> to the eye); only the AN1x comes up short.
>
> I wonder if this is a Yamaha-wide "feature."  It's probably true of the
> CS1x/CS6x family, since they share a case style with the AN1x.  I don't
> think it is true of older Yamaha pieces:  I owned a DX-9 for several
years,

> and used a DX-7 for a while, and I never noticed this situation when
> stacking those keyboards.  Does anyone have a Yamaha piano or other non
> -'Sx' keyboard for comparison?
>
> Why would Yamaha do this?
>
> Regards,
>
> -BW
>
> --
> Bruce Wahler
> Design Consultant
> Ashby Solutions"
> www.ashbysolutions.com
> CloneWheel Support Group moderator
> 978.386.7389  voice
> 978.964.0547 fax
> bruce@...
>
>
> Community email addresses:
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>
>

> C to C inclusive measured over 5 octaves:
> Yahama AN1x - 32 1/2"
> Korg 01/W Pro - 32 1/2"
> Ensoniq KT-76 - 33 7/16"
> Mehlin & Sons Upright Grand (about 100 years old, real ivory keys) -
 33 1/4"
> General Music CD10 (home type keyboard with speakers) - 33 5/16"

Ok, so I got out my tape measure:

- Steinway Model L Grand (circa 1929) - 33.5 inches
- Roland XP50 - 32.875 inches
- AN1x - Same as Ed's

Ed, you'll notice that I am using decimal's with my inches out of 
deference to the Systeme Internationale people amongst us ;)

I guess there's more variability than I expected. And the Roland is 
small, though larger than the Yamaha. I wonder how the 88 key 
controllers stack up (Fatar, KX88 etc.) ?

Cheers,

Jerry

Ed,

OK, the plot thickens (sickens? ;^)) --

>C to C inclusive measured over 5 octaves:
>Yahama AN1x - 32 1/2"

Yamaha AN1x - 32 1/2" (confirmed -- proves our yardsticks/eyes are working 
the same!)

>Korg 01/W Pro - 32 1/2"

The new KORG CX-3 is 33 3/16".  So, a KORG is not a KORG is not a KORG ...

>Notice how the Japanese companies have the narrower width.

But my Roland HP-3500s (home-style version of the RD-300) measures 33" even ...

>So, it seems you have questioned a standard which is not a standard.

Agreed, although it seems that something in the range of 33.0 - 33.5" seems 
to be about the norm -- if such a term can be bantered about:

Roland HP-3500s        33.00"
KORG CX-3              33.19"
Mehlin Grand           33.25"
General Music CD10     33.31"
Ensoniq KT-76          33.44"

I don't have my Fatar anymore, but they are also based in Italy, and have 
made keyboards for Peavey, General Music, and Ensoniq, so it was probably 
somewhere around the KT-76/CD10 range, too.


Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions"
www.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group moderator
978.386.7389  voice
978.964.0547 fax
bruce@...

For those who like to keep score:

Yamaha AN1x             32.50"
KORG 01/W Pro           32.50"
Roland XP50             32.88"
Roland HP-3500s         33.00"

KORG CX-3               33.19"
Mehlin Grand            33.25"
General Music CD10      33.31"
Ensoniq KT-76           33.44"
Steinway Model L Grand  33.50"

So it appears that we have two "standards": the NA/EC/old-school width of 
33.0-33.5", and the Japanese width of 32.5-33.0", with one exception, which 
does use a "non-standard" keyboard (at least, for Japanese designs).

Do guitarists have to deal with this?  :^)

Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions"
www.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group moderator
978.386.7389  voice
978.964.0547 fax
bruce@...

At 11:04 AM 7/13/01 -0400, Bruce Wahler wrote:
>For those who like to keep score:
>
>Yamaha AN1x             32.50"
>KORG 01/W Pro           32.50"
>Roland XP50             32.88"
>Roland HP-3500s         33.00"

Hey, it's not the size that counts but...


- 30 -
: . elson trinidad, los angeles, california, usa
: . elson@...  :  www.westworld.com/~elson
: . groove to the futurethnic beats of e:trinity at www.e-trinity.org and 
www.mp3.com/etrinity

Elson,

Actually, this whole mess started because I watched a lesson tape of one of 
my favorite Hammond players, the late Jack McDuff, where he was 
demonstrating a technique where he played an open chord on the upper 
keyboard with a soft tone, then held his hand steady and graced down to the 
same notes on the lower keyboard, which had a much brighter tone 
setting.  If performed quickly (and accurately), the overall effect is 
similar to using a wah-wah or Mu-tron device.

On a Hammond B-3, with two keyboards only about an inch or so apart, 
height-wise, it's a reasonable technique to master.  On a pair of modern 
keyboards, though, it's difficult to get the two sets of keys close 
together, and so the result can actually be a sprained finger!  After doing 
my best to angle the AN1x above my Fatar, I still wasn't getting the 
desired results.  That's when I noticed that the High Cs on the two 
keyboards didn't quite line up -- and the rest, as they say, is history ...

Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions"
www.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group moderator
978.386.7389  voice
978.964.0547 fax
bruce@...

At 02:54 p 7/13/2001 -0700, you wrote:

>At 11:04 AM 7/13/01 -0400, Bruce Wahler wrote:
> >For those who like to keep score:
> >
> >Yamaha AN1x             32.50"
> >KORG 01/W Pro           32.50"
> >Roland XP50             32.88"
> >Roland HP-3500s         33.00"
>
>Hey, it's not the size that counts but...

Now Bruce, you've got me thinking weird again---

The only dual manual synth that I remember reading about was one of the
Sequential Prophets (maybe the 10).  Otherwise I don't know if this has been
attempted in the last 20 years, excepting maybe a couple of the B-3 clones,
but these are organ emulators, and not meant to be synths.

I subscribed to the Analogue Heaven group a while back and was asked to go
nuts with the rest of the group and brainstorm on a new analog synth design
by an associate of Dr. Robert Moog (pronounced like LOON, GOOF, or KOOK --
does anyone realize how many times he's sold off the name "moog"?  And have
you ever read interviews where he gets angry for "somebody using his name"?
But I digress....)  Anyway, nobody requested a dual manual keyboard.  This
would be a VERY COOL feature, don't you agree?  If set up like a B-3 or a
real organ where one hand could reach 2 sounds at once - this would be
awesome.  Look Bruce and the rest of you, I've got a few old beer cans
sitting around, and maybe some baseball cards I could auction on Ebay to get
some of the initial capital to start a new synth company.  We could like,
uh, rule the synth world man.  But again I digress.

It seems to be impossible to get 2 synths close enough vertically to get the
dual manual effect.  Even if you could adjust the stand somehow, it is
impossible to see the display on the lower synth or reach it's buttons.

Meanwhile, has anyone found out why the piano keyboard is designed with
skinny black keys and wider white ones, and furthermore who determined how
fat each type would be?

Ed Edwards
Leader: Ezekiel's Wheel      \ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffdRetro-Progressive Rock\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd
http://www.untiedmusic.com/ezekiel
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/227/ezekiels_wheel.html
\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd
\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Wahler" <bruce@...>
To: <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: [AN1x-list] Keyboard Weirdness (a little OT)


> Elson,
>
> Actually, this whole mess started because I watched a lesson tape of one
of
> my favorite Hammond players, the late Jack McDuff, where he was
> demonstrating a technique where he played an open chord on the upper
> keyboard with a soft tone, then held his hand steady and graced down to
the
> same notes on the lower keyboard, which had a much brighter tone
> setting.  If performed quickly (and accurately), the overall effect is
> similar to using a wah-wah or Mu-tron device.
>
> On a Hammond B-3, with two keyboards only about an inch or so apart,
> height-wise, it's a reasonable technique to master.  On a pair of modern
> keyboards, though, it's difficult to get the two sets of keys close
> together, and so the result can actually be a sprained finger!  After
doing
> my best to angle the AN1x above my Fatar, I still wasn't getting the
> desired results.  That's when I noticed that the High Cs on the two
> keyboards didn't quite line up -- and the rest, as they say, is history
...

>
> Regards,
>
> -BW
>
> --
> Bruce Wahler
> Design Consultant
> Ashby Solutions"
> www.ashbysolutions.com
> CloneWheel Support Group moderator
> 978.386.7389  voice
> 978.964.0547 fax
> bruce@...
>
> At 02:54 p 7/13/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> >At 11:04 AM 7/13/01 -0400, Bruce Wahler wrote:
> > >For those who like to keep score:
> > >
> > >Yamaha AN1x             32.50"
> > >KORG 01/W Pro           32.50"
> > >Roland XP50             32.88"
> > >Roland HP-3500s         33.00"
> >
> >Hey, it's not the size that counts but...
>
>
> Community email addresses:
>   Post message: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
>   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   List owner:   AN1x-list-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Ed,

Even in the organ world, a dual-manual design is becoming very rare.  Too 
few buyers, therefore, too costly to develop (per unit), and too risky, 
sales-wise.  I still think it's a great idea, but you won't get me 
investing money into its production.

BTW, I applied for work at Moog Music when they were located outside 
Buffalo, NY (in 1977), and the receptionist and HR people pronounced it, 
"mowg".  I think Bob Moog does, too, based on an interview he did in 
Keyboard back in 1974-75.

At 12:26 a 7/14/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Now Bruce, you've got me thinking weird again---
>
>The only dual manual synth that I remember reading about was one of the
>Sequential Prophets (maybe the 10).  Otherwise I don't know if this has been
>attempted in the last 20 years, excepting maybe a couple of the B-3 clones,
>but these are organ emulators, and not meant to be synths.
>
>I subscribed to the Analogue Heaven group a while back and was asked to go
>nuts with the rest of the group and brainstorm on a new analog synth design
>by an associate of Dr. Robert Moog (pronounced like LOON, GOOF, or KOOK --
>does anyone realize how many times he's sold off the name "moog"?  And have
>you ever read interviews where he gets angry for "somebody using his name"?
>But I digress....)  Anyway, nobody requested a dual manual keyboard.  This
>would be a VERY COOL feature, don't you agree?  If set up like a B-3 or a
>real organ where one hand could reach 2 sounds at once - this would be
>awesome.  Look Bruce and the rest of you, I've got a few old beer cans
>sitting around, and maybe some baseball cards I could auction on Ebay to get
>some of the initial capital to start a new synth company.  We could like,
>uh, rule the synth world man.  But again I digress.
>
>It seems to be impossible to get 2 synths close enough vertically to get the
>dual manual effect.  Even if you could adjust the stand somehow, it is
>impossible to see the display on the lower synth or reach it's buttons.
>
>Meanwhile, has anyone found out why the piano keyboard is designed with
>skinny black keys and wider white ones, and furthermore who determined how
>fat each type would be?
>
>Ed Edwards
>Leader: Ezekiel's Wheel      »»»»Retro-Progressive Rock««««
><http://www.untiedmusic.com/ezekiel>http://www.untiedmusic.com/ezekiel
>http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/227/ezekiels_wheel.html
>°·.·°·.·°·.·°·.·°·.·°·.·°·.·°·.·°·.·°·.·°·.·°·.·°·.·°·.·°·.·°·.·°·.·°
>°·.·°·.·°·.·°·.·°
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bruce Wahler" <bruce@...>
>To: <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 6:23 PM
>Subject: Re: [AN1x-list] Keyboard Weirdness (a little OT)
>
>
> > Elson,
> >
> > Actually, this whole mess started because I watched a lesson tape of one
>of
> > my favorite Hammond players, the late Jack McDuff, where he was
> > demonstrating a technique where he played an open chord on the upper
> > keyboard with a soft tone, then held his hand steady and graced down to
>the
> > same notes on the lower keyboard, which had a much brighter tone
> > setting.  If performed quickly (and accurately), the overall effect is
> > similar to using a wah-wah or Mu-tron device.
> >
> > On a Hammond B-3, with two keyboards only about an inch or so apart,
> > height-wise, it's a reasonable technique to master.  On a pair of modern
> > keyboards, though, it's difficult to get the two sets of keys close
> > together, and so the result can actually be a sprained finger!  After
>doing
> > my best to angle the AN1x above my Fatar, I still wasn't getting the
> > desired results.  That's when I noticed that the High Cs on the two
> > keyboards didn't quite line up -- and the rest, as they say, is history
>...
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > -BW
> >
> > --
> > Bruce Wahler
> > Design Consultant
> > Ashby Solutions"
> > www.ashbysolutions.com
> > CloneWheel Support Group moderator
> > 978.386.7389  voice
> > 978.964.0547 fax
> > bruce@...
> >
> > At 02:54 p 7/13/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> > >At 11:04 AM 7/13/01 -0400, Bruce Wahler wrote:
> > > >For those who like to keep score:
> > > >
> > > >Yamaha AN1x             32.50"
> > > >KORG 01/W Pro           32.50"
> > > >Roland XP50             32.88"
> > > >Roland HP-3500s         33.00"
> > >
> > >Hey, it's not the size that counts but...
> >
> >
> > Community email addresses:
> >   Post message: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
> >   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >   Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >   List owner:   AN1x-list-owner@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Shortcut URL to this page:
> > 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>Community email addresses:
>   Post message: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
>   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   List owner:   AN1x-list-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
>Shortcut URL to this page:
> 
><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the 
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions"
www.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group moderator
978.386.7389  voice
978.964.0547 fax
bruce@...