The Yamaha AN1x Synthesizer mailing list

Hi, 

I just joined the list.   Is Gary Gregson still a member?   If so, this is
about the PLG150AN's inability to send bulk dumps, which is discussed in
the email below which I got from the AN1x-list archive.

To me, it seems that Yamaha made a mistake leaving this functionality out
of the PLG150AN (or maybe it's the fault of the host device, I'm not sure).
 I'm using a CS6x myself.    Anyway, I think it is really important to have
this functionality.

It's true, some of the parameters in the AN1XEdit files PLGPreset1.anp and
PLGPreset2.anp do not match those listed in the PLG150AN manual, in
particular, the modulation matrix destinations.   For instance, Preset
patch 1 (this may not display well, since I use a proportional font):

                              AN1XEdit                PLG150AN Manual
                              -------------
-------------------------
Patch name:         KillerLoop                Killer
AC1 dest.              Vcf Cuttof                Sync Pitch Up
AC4 dest:              Sync Pit Dp             VCF Cutoff

These are just the first I noticed, I'm sure there are many more.   I would
really like to get the PLG150AN Presets into AN1XEdit, and also into
XGWorks AN Expert Editor.

Is there anyone at Yamaha that I can write to about this?   Maybe they
could add this functionality in a future operating system upgrade?  (fat
chance, I know, ha ha).

Regards,
Richard

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gary Gregson <gary@y...>
> To: <AN1x-list@egroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 3:10 AM
> Subject: RE: [AN1x-list] Bulk dumps from PLG150-AN
> 
> 
> Hi Lars,
> 
> In common with all Yamaha soundcards and PLG boards....it is 
> NOT possible to dump parameters from the PLG150AN card. 
> Yamaha simply do not provide bulk requests or a return path 
> from the card  (their reasoning is that any changes to the 
> card MUST have arrived from an external source....hence that 
> external source should already know what the parameters 
> are). I don't go along with this reasoning....particularly 
> in the case you mention where you want to get at the default 
> ROM preset parameters!
> 
> If you perform a bulk dump from an MU unit fitted with a PLG 
> card, you will get some PLG card specific parameters. 
> However these are merely the configuration parameters for 
> the card in the XG device (i.e. those you can edit from the 
> MU front panel). They are at best offsets....they are NOT 
> the actual voice parameters stored within the card.
> 
> It is for this reason that AN1xEdit does not provide the 
> An1x BULK Request button when operating in PLG mode (if it 
> was available, I can assure you that I wouldn't have went to 
> the trouble of removing the button in PLG mode!!!!!!!!)
> 
> It is also for this reason that I provide the PLG150AN 
> preset banks as .ANP files within the An1xEdit installer 
> package.
> 
> Obviously, since there is no way to request what is in the 
> PLG150AN ROM, I have created these files based on 
> information supplied by Yamaha .....or to put it another way 
> I ripped them out of the PLG150AN editor supplied for 
> XGworks use. (Incidentally the XGworks editor is actually 
> based upon my AN1xEdit source code....but YCJ saw fit to 
> give it a 'different' interface and  unfortunately 
> compromised some of the functionality in the process...use 
> it at your peril :-)
> 
> Therefore I cannot be certain that what is in my supplied 
> preset files is EXACTLY what is in the PLG150AN ROM. i.e. I 
> could not find anyone at Yamaha to give me the ACTUAL ROM 
> data!
> 
> Therefore it is as close as you are going to get unless you 
> care to go through each voice and do an aural parameter by 
> parameter comparison! If you care to do this, please go 
> ahead...but I had neither the time nor inclination to do 
> such a comparison (after all AN1xEdit is primarily for 
> creating your own custom voices.... not trying to replicate 
> those that Yamaha have already supplied!)
> 
> Regarding the earlier questions on getting AN voice data 
> into your sequencer. As I explained, the best way is to 
> export from An1xEdit as a MIDI file or as a Cakewalk SYX 
> bank. In either case I would not recommend sending an AN 
> voice bulk mid way through a sequence! The actual sysex is 
> over 1K long per voice....and is therefore bound to cause a 
> glitch in your sequencers playback! Furthermore the AN 
> device takes a finite time to respond to patch changes...so 
> don't expect to be able to switch voices quickly on the fly 
> (this applies to both the AN1x keyboard and the PLG150AN 
> card)
> 
> My advice would be set up any AN patches at the start of the 
> song (i.e. leave a couple of black bars for synth setup 
> prior to the music starting to play). The same is true of 
> general XG synth setup.
> 
> If you really want to change AN voices mid song, then you 
> should download all required patches to the synth user 
> memory bank at the start of the song. Thereafter you should 
> just use simple program change messages to change patch (but 
> again don't expect voice change to be instantaneous....the 
> machine has to reconfigure alot of internal DSP parameters 
> on patch change. I have seen user who setup patch changes in 
> Cubase parts and then wonder why the first few notes of the 
> part don't play...the reason is the synth is still 
> configuring. So send all patch changes at least half a 
> second before you want a note to sound. In the Cubase 
> example this would mean advancing the part start time so 
> there is a gap between when the patch is sent and the first 
> note of the part plays.).
> 
> Normally I work by constructing a library of my favourite 
> patches within An1xEdit. Thereafter I download the whole 
> library to the synth at the start of the day.
> 
> Also if you want to provide alot of voice tweaking during a 
> song you should avoid excessive use of sysex (i.e. avoid 
> recording lots of AN1xEdit knob movements into your song 
> using Hubis or OMS IAC). Lots of sysex is guaranteed to 
> destabilise sequencer playback.
> 
> Instead setup the Matrix function of each voice to your 
> preference and use standard controllers (they are much 
> faster to transmit and also much easier to edit with 
> standard sequencer controller edit curves and other 
> sequencer features).
> 
> Regards
> 
> Gary

Hi, 

One more question for Gary Gregson, if he's still a member:  Any chance of
modifying AN1XEdit so it can read PLG150AN  ".S2B" files?

Regards,
Richard

Richard wrote:

>>
this is about the PLG150AN's inability to send bulk dumps, .......To me, it
seems that Yamaha made a mistake leaving this functionality out of the
PLG150AN (or maybe it's the fault of the host device, I'm not sure). I'm
using a CS6x myself. Anyway, I think it is really important to have this
functionality.
<<

The lack of bulk dump appears to be a feature of all PLG cards. As I have
said before, my guess is that Yamaha reasoned " since the cards have no user
interface, all edits must be performed via external software.....hence you
ought to already have all the parameters in that software". Whilst I don't
entirely agree with this philosophy, I don't feel it is 'really important'
to have this functionality.

The CS6x like other XG host devices can apply offsets to the voice
parameters stored in the patches of the card. These are termed 'quick edits'
and are simply XG offset parameters applied by the host processing. You can
normally access these parameters directly from the host front panel (and can
bulk dump them)....but they are NOT true AN voice patch parameters. (I
believe the XGworks AN editor caters for these parameters in its easy edit
mode). You can also apply them using the standard PART parameters of my
XGedit.

As for the PLG150AN presets supplied with AN1xEdit....(as already
explained), I simply extracted these from Yamahas own XGworks editor. I
don't really care whether they are 100% correct, its not something that I
think is worth spending any great deal of time on. An1xEdit is designed for
creating voices....and the supplied presets are good enough for that purpose
(i.e. using the preset voices as a starting point). Bear in mind that if you
use An1xEdit to edit the voice, you will be starting with what AN1xEdit
dumps to the card....NOT what's in the ROM.

>>
Any chance of modifying AN1xEdit so it can read PLG150AN  ".S2B" files?
<<

I have no idea what a '.S2B' file is...but I suspect its some kind of file
saved by the CS6x. If so it probably only contains the host offsets as
described above. In which case they are more applicable to a CS6x/XG editor
than an AN1x editor!

Regards

Gary Gregson

Email:gary@...
http://www.yme.co.uk/yme

Hi, Gary

>The lack of bulk dump appears to be a feature of all PLG cards. As I have
>said before, my guess is that Yamaha reasoned " since the cards have no user
>interface, all edits must be performed via external software.....hence you
>ought to already have all the parameters in that software". Whilst I don't
>entirely agree with this philosophy, I don't feel it is 'really important'
>to have this functionality.

Yes, I think I overstated the importance of this.   I wouldn't call it a
feature, though.

>The CS6x like other XG host devices can apply offsets to the voice
>parameters stored in the patches of the card. These are termed 'quick edits'
>and are simply XG offset parameters applied by the host processing. You can
>normally access these parameters directly from the host front panel (and can
>bulk dump them)....but they are NOT true AN voice patch parameters. (I
>believe the XGworks AN editor caters for these parameters in its easy edit
>mode). You can also apply them using the standard PART parameters of my
>XGedit.

Yes, this is pretty much correct.   The CS6x can save two kinds of PLG150AN
patch files - it can save the actual contents of the PLG150AN User Bank
036/002 as a "Board Voice" file (.s2b), and it can save the offset
paramters that you talk about above - it won't save these separately as a
file, but is saves them as part of an "ALL" file (.s2a), which is the
entire contents of memory.   However, the "ALL" files don't contain the
Board Voice data.   

>As for the PLG150AN presets supplied with AN1xEdit....(as already
>explained), I simply extracted these from Yamahas own XGworks editor. I
>don't really care whether they are 100% correct, its not something that I
>think is worth spending any great deal of time on. An1xEdit is designed for
>creating voices....and the supplied presets are good enough for that purpose
>(i.e. using the preset voices as a starting point). Bear in mind that if you
>use An1xEdit to edit the voice, you will be starting with what AN1xEdit
>dumps to the card....NOT what's in the ROM.

I didn't mean to be too critical or anything, and I agree with what you say
above.   Sorry if you've been over this before, but it's new to me.  Using
the XGWorks AN Expert editor, which seems to have patches that exactly
match what's in the PLG150AN ROM, I think I may be able to create some .ANP
files which exactly match the PLG150AN's Preset1, Preset2, and default User
banks.   If I get that done, I'll make them available to you if you like.

Regards,
Richard

Richard wrote:

>>
The CS6x can save two kinds of PLG150AN patch files - it can save the actual
contents of the PLG150AN User Bank 036/002 as a "Board Voice" file (.s2b),
and it can save the offset parameters that you talk about above - it won't
save these separately as a file, but is saves them as part of an "ALL" file
(.s2a), which is the entire contents of memory.   However, the "ALL" files
don't contain the Board Voice data.
<<

I am surprised if the .s2b files actually contain the user banks of the PLG.
Yamaha have always told me that the host could not request this info from
the card! It may be that some other mechanism is at play here (such as
Yamaha introducing a new mechanism on the hosts to access this data, or
perhaps they cache it before it gets sent to the PLG). It certainly isn't
possible with any of the standard XG host devices.

>>
Using the XGWorks AN Expert editor, which seems to have patches that exactly
match what's in the PLG150AN ROM, I think I may be able to create some .ANP
files which exactly match the PLG150AN's Preset1, Preset2, and default User
banks.   If I get that done, I'll make them available to you if you like.
<<

It may be that Yamaha updated the files supplied with the XGworks AN editor
for the final release (I generally get to work on Beta stuff). In which
case, go ahead and convert them to ANP. As I said, I am not particularly
interested in these files (the majority are voices from earlier collections
of AN1x libraries). However if you want to make them available to others,
simply upload them to the user group file library.



Regards

Gary Gregson

Email:gary@...
http://www.yme.co.uk/yme