The Yamaha AN1x Synthesizer mailing list

Hoping this kind of thing isn't done to death....

In general I think it would be great, and really enlightening to hear how you who actually know how to program a synth (unlike me) would go about duplicating a sound.

I thought the old synth the Beatles used on the intro to "Strawberry fields" is interesting, how would you go about getting that sound? (was it a mellotron, or even older synth?..I think I've seen pictures of it)

I would love to hear the thought process you would go through to get in the ballpark and how you would plan to get that sound.

Just from memory, I think it had a pretty mellow attack on the keys, it had little treble, and it sounds to me (again, from memory) like the modulation is very limited, that it didn't cycle through a wide range as the keys were held down...just a small bit of vibrato...but I know there is way more than that to it. And even the things I think I hear may be something else.

So if anyone is game..how would you plan to get this sound, listening to the record o from memory what can you say about it (like I briefly did above) but even more important, which module would you hook up to each other...PEG, FEG, whatever...

Anyone game?

Jim

James R. Acker
jacker@... listen to my music at.....
==============================================================
My first CD "Tabasco Road" can be heard at http://www.connectpoint.com/acker
(With thanks to Mike Jones for hosting it)
My current songs can be now heard at my site: http://home.sol.no/~jacker/

the sytnth the beatles were using was the mellotron flute patch.


Eitan Teomi

<A HREF="http://ourworld.cs.com/teomi">http://ourworld.cs.com/teomi</A>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jim,

>I thought the old synth the Beatles used on the intro to "Strawberry
>fields" is interesting, how would you go about getting that sound? (was it
>a mellotron, or even older synth?..I think I've seen pictures of it)
>
>I would love to hear the thought process you would go through to get in
>the ballpark and how you would plan to get that sound.

Boy, you could have found an easier first attempt! :^) This is a
deceptive sound, appearing easy to duplicate, but actually possessing a lot
of subtleties.

The sound on the intro to "Strawberry Fields" is a Mellotron Mark II, using
the flute recording that was part of the standard tape set. What makes
this simulation difficult is the fact that the Mellotron is a sort of
sampling synthesizer, so you are trying to simulate a synth with another
synth. Also, the Mellotron had its own dominant timbre which permeated
every sound, from violins to choirs to flutes. And finally, the Mellotron
was not a chromatically-tuned instrument; the recordings were
just-intonated, mostly in the key of A major. In any other key, they tend
to sound a little off key on one or more of the notes. The following is
the way I would approach the sound on ANY synth, AN1x or otherwise --

I would start off by trying to simulate a flute sound, which is mostly a
sine wave, except for the initial attack, which has a lot of high harmonic
content, both tonal and atonal in nature. Start with a 50% duty pulse with
the Edge at about 115, and set the FEG to a fast attack, fast decay, and a
relatively low sustain level -- low enough to filter out most of the
harmonics, but not so low as to mute the sound. Set the AEG to a similar
shape, but set the sustain very high, maybe 118 or so. After some tweaking
by ear, you should have a flute timbre that sounds good for mellow solos --
think soft jazz, not Jethro Tull. You may find that adding a little noise
to the mix improves the illusion, but use it sparingly. One VCO may be
enough to create the sound; if you want to use the second one, set it to
the same waveform, make it an octave above the first, about 25% of the
original volume, with only a very slight fine pitch detune.

Now, you need to "Mellotron-ize" the sound. First, as you already noted,
the attack on the Mellotron was never very quick, owing to the nature of
the tape system used in the instrument. Back the attack of both the FEG
and AEG until you have a more calliope-like sound. If you want a good
example -- Strawberry Fields is not the best one I can think of -- use the
Dance of the Puppets section of King Crimson's "The Court of the Crimson
King," which is actually the same sound on the same instrument. After
that, you need to EQ the result to give it that hollow sound that the
Mellotron was famous for -- add a little boost at 125Hz and 3.8kHz, and
drop the 1kHz a little. The effect you're looking for is that of an old
movie soundtrack. Then add a little slow flange to the mix, and a little
PMOD using the same LFO speed, to simulate the wow and flutter that the
tape drive caused. Use the pitch modulation sparingly, as the detuning was
not all that noticeable.

Finally, a little (mis-)tuning simulation is probably in order. Use one of
the matrix controls to add a little fine pitch decrease based on key
tracking, and if the end result causes the whole patch to go flat,
compensate with the fine pitch controls on the VCOs.


Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions"
www.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group moderator
978.386.7389 voice
978.776.0096 fax
bruce@...

Again Bruce gives an excellent lesson in programming.

Bruce, where did you learn that the mellotron used just intonation
(shudder)? Was it some sort of cruel joke or mistake or what? I never had
the money (back in the day) to own one, but I've heard plenty of them live
and they did have a weird out-of-tuneness that was unique. But ---- at that
time there were no other "samplers", and therefore nothing to compare the
sound to but a real instrument, and for my ears (stoned as they were) the
emulations were excellent. Did you know that Mellotron is still in
business? They even have a web site. Some electronic instruments are
classics due to unique quirks, and others are just passing technology; the
Mellotron is a true "musical instrument".

Someone asked recently the group what the "definative" sound of the AN1x is,
and I've been giving this a lot of thought. So far, I have no answer. This
is because the AN emulates existing stuff so well. "Earth Lead" is one of
my favorites, but it sure sounds like Rick Wakeman's ARP from the '70s.

Finally (since this seems to be long anyway), I ask again: Has anyone found
a way to do pitch bend from a pedal? This is annoying, and I'm hoping
there's a simple solution.

Ed Edwards

> The sound on the intro to "Strawberry Fields" is a Mellotron Mark II,

using

> the flute recording that was part of the standard tape set. What makes
> this simulation difficult is the fact that the Mellotron is a sort of
> sampling synthesizer, so you are trying to simulate a synth with another
> synth. Also, the Mellotron had its own dominant timbre which permeated
> every sound, from violins to choirs to flutes. And finally, the Mellotron
> was not a chromatically-tuned instrument; the recordings were
> just-intonated, mostly in the key of A major. In any other key, they tend
> to sound a little off key on one or more of the notes. The following is
> the way I would approach the sound on ANY synth, AN1x or otherwise --

Ed,

>Bruce, where did you learn that the mellotron used just intonation
>(shudder)? Was it some sort of cruel joke or mistake or what? I never had
>the money (back in the day) to own one, but I've heard plenty of them live
>and they did have a weird out-of-tuneness that was unique.

Actually, I hope I'm using the correct term; what I mean to say is that the
Mellotron recordings were created in a specific key, using exact intervals
between notes. The Mellotron used (up to) 8 sec. taped recordings of
instruments playing each of the notes -- violins, cellos, flutes,
etc. Let's take the violin as an example: When playing an A, both the
violin and the keyboard agree, right? But, what about A#/Bb? To us
chromatically-tuned junkies, they're the same note, but not to a
violinist. If the mathematical intervals are compared during a half-step
run from say, D3 to D4 and F3 to F4, there will be a slight difference in
the pitch of A#3 and Bb3. Not much, but it is there, and a violinist will
compensate, based on the key of the tune. In fact, my first "given" is not
always true: The violinist will play a slightly different A in a C scale
from the root note in an A scale. To get around this problem, the
Mellotron engineers simply picked one key -- I think it was A major -- for
all 37 notes, and then added a pitch control to compensate for the
inaccuracies in other keys. Many players never quite got the hang of the
pitch control -- and it was worthless for chords -- so there was always a
bit of an off-key tint to most Mellotron performances.

Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions"
www.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group moderator
978.386.7389 voice
978.776.0096 fax
bruce@...

Bruce Wahler wrote:

> Actually, I hope I'm using the correct term;

(in regards to just intonation)

I think you are.

I would like to be a purist on Mellotron, but, well, I can't find one and I am
not a car mechanic!! I used to lurk on the tron tech list and it was a very eye
opening experience. I have a couple of Hammonds and that is enough maintenance!

I have found the EMU Vintage Keys sound module to be a good substitute. They
have samples of Mark II and Mark IV trons, and Chamberlin sounds (US instrument
that predated the Mellotron). There is a bit of a bitter history between
Chamberlin and Mellotron. Don't know all the details.

I have bought some samples. Haven't tried the Pinder cd. I found some good
sample cards for the Ensoniq ASR-10 series through Greytsounds. However, they
were only the tron and Chamberlin strings, Chamberlin flute, and Chamberlin
choir. The Chamberlin choir is just awful for the most part. The Chamberlin
flute is different than the tron one, although it isn't too bad.

Still think the Vintage Keys is the trick, They were discontinued and show up
every once in awhile. Probably could get one for less than $500 US, now.

One of the flute patches is very convincing in playing Strawberry Fields. It
even shuts off after 8 seconds or so, so you have to take the "tron approach"
in playing it!

Linda

All,

Bear in mind that the result will not sound even remotely like the
"classic" Mellotron sound, as that sound is usually considered violins, and
to a lesser extent, choir. By comparison, the Mellotron flute sound is
something of a rarity on recorded music.

Also, I fully agree with Leo's points on the Beatles' use of the
Mellotron. The Beatles were nothing if not experimental, especially with
tape recorders. They also seemed to take a "let's just try it" approach to
new instruments, rather than emulating other artists. If you doubt that
statement, listen to the Moog use on "Here Comes the Sun": It's
interesting, and it seems to fit the bill, but it's far from what one would
arrive at by listening to Walter Carlos or Keith Emerson for an
afternoon. Beatle Mellotron use follows the same path. The recipe that I
provided was a way to arrive at an approximation of a studio-quality
Mellotron II, similar to the ones used by King Crimson and the Moody
Blues. How close it approximates the Beatles' variation is subject to debate.

Another thing that changes the sound is that the Strawberry Fields we all
know is actually a medley of two different takes in two very different
keys. Ultimately, one (or both) of them was transposed by changing tape
speed, which is the reason why John Lennon's signature vocals are not
instantly apparent. Perhaps this could have affected the Mellotron
timbres, too.

At 09:32 a 03/12/2001 -0600, you wrote:

>this is fascinating!
>
>could someone actually give this a try and post the results? there is
>currently a "mellotron" patch in one of the patch banks, but not a very
>convincing one. and it would be interesting to follow bruce's instructions
>and then hear the results.
>
>cheers,
>
>chris
>
>At 10:41 PM 3/11/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >Jim,
> >
> >>I thought the old synth the Beatles used on the intro to "Strawberry
> >>fields" is interesting, how would you go about getting that sound? (was it
> >>a mellotron, or even older synth?..I think I've seen pictures of it)
> >>
> >>I would love to hear the thought process you would go through to get in
> >>the ballpark and how you would plan to get that sound.
> >
> >Boy, you could have found an easier first attempt! :^) This is a
> >deceptive sound, appearing easy to duplicate, but actually possessing a lot
> >of subtleties.
> >
> >The sound on the intro to "Strawberry Fields" is a Mellotron Mark II, using
> >the flute recording that was part of the standard tape set. What makes
> >this simulation difficult is the fact that the Mellotron is a sort of
> >sampling synthesizer, so you are trying to simulate a synth with another
> >synth. Also, the Mellotron had its own dominant timbre which permeated
> >every sound, from violins to choirs to flutes. And finally, the Mellotron
> >was not a chromatically-tuned instrument; the recordings were
> >just-intonated, mostly in the key of A major. In any other key, they tend
> >to sound a little off key on one or more of the notes. The following is
> >the way I would approach the sound on ANY synth, AN1x or otherwise --
> >
> >I would start off by trying to simulate a flute sound, which is mostly a
> >sine wave, except for the initial attack, which has a lot of high harmonic
> >content, both tonal and atonal in nature. Start with a 50% duty pulse with
> >the Edge at about 115, and set the FEG to a fast attack, fast decay, and a
> >relatively low sustain level -- low enough to filter out most of the
> >harmonics, but not so low as to mute the sound. Set the AEG to a similar
> >shape, but set the sustain very high, maybe 118 or so. After some tweaking
> >by ear, you should have a flute timbre that sounds good for mellow solos --
> >think soft jazz, not Jethro Tull. You may find that adding a little noise
> >to the mix improves the illusion, but use it sparingly. One VCO may be
> >enough to create the sound; if you want to use the second one, set it to
> >the same waveform, make it an octave above the first, about 25% of the
> >original volume, with only a very slight fine pitch detune.
> >
> >Now, you need to "Mellotron-ize" the sound. First, as you already noted,
> >the attack on the Mellotron was never very quick, owing to the nature of
> >the tape system used in the instrument. Back the attack of both the FEG
> >and AEG until you have a more calliope-like sound. If you want a good
> >example -- Strawberry Fields is not the best one I can think of -- use the
> >Dance of the Puppets section of King Crimson's "The Court of the Crimson
> >King," which is actually the same sound on the same instrument. After
> >that, you need to EQ the result to give it that hollow sound that the
> >Mellotron was famous for -- add a little boost at 125Hz and 3.8kHz, and
> >drop the 1kHz a little. The effect you're looking for is that of an old
> >movie soundtrack. Then add a little slow flange to the mix, and a little
> >PMOD using the same LFO speed, to simulate the wow and flutter that the
> >tape drive caused. Use the pitch modulation sparingly, as the detuning was
> >not all that noticeable.
> >
> >Finally, a little (mis-)tuning simulation is probably in order. Use one of
> >the matrix controls to add a little fine pitch decrease based on key
> >tracking, and if the end result causes the whole patch to go flat,
> >compensate with the fine pitch controls on the VCOs.
> >
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >-BW
> >
> >--
> >Bruce Wahler
> >Design Consultant
> >Ashby Solutions"
> >www.ashbysolutions.com
> >CloneWheel Support Group moderator
> >978.386.7389 voice
> >978.776.0096 fax
> >bruce@...
> >
> >
> >
> >Community email addresses:
> > Post message: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
> > Subscribe: AN1x-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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> >
> >Shortcut URL to this page:
> >
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> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>Christopher Keep
>Assistant Professor
>Department of English
>University College
>University of Western Ontario
>London, Ontario
>Canada
>N6A 3K7
>
>Tel.: (519) 661-2111, ext. 85829
>Fax: (519) 661-3776
>e-mail: ckeep@...
>
>
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Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions"
www.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group moderator
978.386.7389 voice
978.776.0096 fax
bruce@...

this is fascinating!

could someone actually give this a try and post the results? there is
currently a "mellotron" patch in one of the patch banks, but not a very
convincing one. and it would be interesting to follow bruce's instructions
and then hear the results.

cheers,

chris

At 10:41 PM 3/11/01 -0500, you wrote:

>Jim,
>
>>I thought the old synth the Beatles used on the intro to "Strawberry
>>fields" is interesting, how would you go about getting that sound? (was it
>>a mellotron, or even older synth?..I think I've seen pictures of it)
>>
>>I would love to hear the thought process you would go through to get in
>>the ballpark and how you would plan to get that sound.
>
>Boy, you could have found an easier first attempt! :^) This is a
>deceptive sound, appearing easy to duplicate, but actually possessing a lot
>of subtleties.
>
>The sound on the intro to "Strawberry Fields" is a Mellotron Mark II, using
>the flute recording that was part of the standard tape set. What makes
>this simulation difficult is the fact that the Mellotron is a sort of
>sampling synthesizer, so you are trying to simulate a synth with another
>synth. Also, the Mellotron had its own dominant timbre which permeated
>every sound, from violins to choirs to flutes. And finally, the Mellotron
>was not a chromatically-tuned instrument; the recordings were
>just-intonated, mostly in the key of A major. In any other key, they tend
>to sound a little off key on one or more of the notes. The following is
>the way I would approach the sound on ANY synth, AN1x or otherwise --
>
>I would start off by trying to simulate a flute sound, which is mostly a
>sine wave, except for the initial attack, which has a lot of high harmonic
>content, both tonal and atonal in nature. Start with a 50% duty pulse with
>the Edge at about 115, and set the FEG to a fast attack, fast decay, and a
>relatively low sustain level -- low enough to filter out most of the
>harmonics, but not so low as to mute the sound. Set the AEG to a similar
>shape, but set the sustain very high, maybe 118 or so. After some tweaking
>by ear, you should have a flute timbre that sounds good for mellow solos --
>think soft jazz, not Jethro Tull. You may find that adding a little noise
>to the mix improves the illusion, but use it sparingly. One VCO may be
>enough to create the sound; if you want to use the second one, set it to
>the same waveform, make it an octave above the first, about 25% of the
>original volume, with only a very slight fine pitch detune.
>
>Now, you need to "Mellotron-ize" the sound. First, as you already noted,
>the attack on the Mellotron was never very quick, owing to the nature of
>the tape system used in the instrument. Back the attack of both the FEG
>and AEG until you have a more calliope-like sound. If you want a good
>example -- Strawberry Fields is not the best one I can think of -- use the
>Dance of the Puppets section of King Crimson's "The Court of the Crimson
>King," which is actually the same sound on the same instrument. After
>that, you need to EQ the result to give it that hollow sound that the
>Mellotron was famous for -- add a little boost at 125Hz and 3.8kHz, and
>drop the 1kHz a little. The effect you're looking for is that of an old
>movie soundtrack. Then add a little slow flange to the mix, and a little
>PMOD using the same LFO speed, to simulate the wow and flutter that the
>tape drive caused. Use the pitch modulation sparingly, as the detuning was
>not all that noticeable.
>
>Finally, a little (mis-)tuning simulation is probably in order. Use one of
>the matrix controls to add a little fine pitch decrease based on key
>tracking, and if the end result causes the whole patch to go flat,
>compensate with the fine pitch controls on the VCOs.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>-BW
>
>--
>Bruce Wahler
>Design Consultant
>Ashby Solutions"
>www.ashbysolutions.com
>CloneWheel Support Group moderator
>978.386.7389 voice
>978.776.0096 fax
>bruce@...
>
>
>
>Community email addresses:
> Post message: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
> Subscribe: AN1x-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Unsubscribe: AN1x-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> List owner: AN1x-list-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
>Shortcut URL to this page:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Christopher Keep
Assistant Professor
Department of English
University College
University of Western Ontario
London, Ontario
Canada
N6A 3K7

Tel.: (519) 661-2111, ext. 85829
Fax: (519) 661-3776
e-mail: ckeep@...

My opinion:

This is less OFF TOPIC than most of the posts to me. I think one of the
best things about any of these synth lists is when people share how they
have gotten a certain sound out of their beast. Posting new sounds as well.
There are some great capabilities in this thing that I will certainly never
get out of it. Those that I get, you may miss, and vice-versa...but a
collective of people can do amazing things.

I say take the challenge (if you want the challenge (practice) or the
mellotron sound). If anyone else has something that they are trying to
make...post it and see what all these folks can come up with.

Maybe I'm totally off base suggesting this...If I'm OFF TOPIC, please let me
know.

Blades

----- Original Message -----
From: "J Acker" <jacker@...>
To: <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 1:25 AM
Subject: SV: [AN1x-list] Enlightening exercise: Strawberry fields synth
sound?


> Bruce, (and list)
>
> Well, I followed your directions and worked on making the mellotron
sound last night. I thought I'd just write this before I go to work today...
>
> I followed your mail as much as I could, and it definitely got me in
the ball park. I have a couple of questions I can post later about some of
the paramters. I found a few more that seemed to help.
>
> I got a couple of sounds that I think are close but need a little more
tweaking. Upon getting close, it occured to me 1) I don't have "Strawberry
Fields" on CD anywhere, and 2) I used to have "Court of the Crimson King"
but only on cassette..so I really don't have that either. (is it beginning
to dawn on you, that you aren't dealing with a genius here ? :-) so I have
to go out and buy at least one of them to see how close I
> can get.
>
> Again, your instructions were really great.. I would really like to
see how much better I can get it and then post the relavent settings either
here or privately if the rest of the list finds it OT (though I don't again
see why they would..but in case I misunderstand the purpose of this list).
>
> If you are up for it, it'd be great to see if you had any more
comments on the patch.I am not hooked up to PC with my AN1x, so I would have
to post it in text, is that okay?
>
> Anyway, THANKS!
>
> Also I saw no mention of it since I posted but that site I posted to the
list, that (even though it says it is EX-5 its' contents are a seminar on
the AN1x given by someone from Yamaha) seminar html is really, really great.
Along with your explanations, and that seminar I am finally getting a little
more insight into this synth.
>
> Jim
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> Fra: Bruce Wahler <bruce@...>
> Til: <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
> Sendt: 12. mars 2001 04:41
> Emne: Re: [AN1x-list] Enlightening exercise: Strawberry fields synth
sound?
>
>
> > Jim,
> >
> > >I thought the old synth the Beatles used on the intro to "Strawberry
> > >fields" is interesting, how would you go about getting that sound? (was
it
> > >a mellotron, or even older synth?..I think I've seen pictures of it)
> > >
> > >I would love to hear the thought process you would go through to get in
> > >the ballpark and how you would plan to get that sound.
> >
> > Boy, you could have found an easier first attempt! :^) This is a
> > deceptive sound, appearing easy to duplicate, but actually possessing a
lot
> > of subtleties.
> >
> > The sound on the intro to "Strawberry Fields" is a Mellotron Mark II,
using
> > the flute recording that was part of the standard tape set. What makes
> > this simulation difficult is the fact that the Mellotron is a sort of
> > sampling synthesizer, so you are trying to simulate a synth with another
> > synth. Also, the Mellotron had its own dominant timbre which permeated
> > every sound, from violins to choirs to flutes. And finally, the
Mellotron
> > was not a chromatically-tuned instrument; the recordings were
> > just-intonated, mostly in the key of A major. In any other key, they
tend
> > to sound a little off key on one or more of the notes. The following is
> > the way I would approach the sound on ANY synth, AN1x or otherwise --
> >
> > I would start off by trying to simulate a flute sound, which is mostly a
> > sine wave, except for the initial attack, which has a lot of high
harmonic
> > content, both tonal and atonal in nature. Start with a 50% duty pulse
with
> > the Edge at about 115, and set the FEG to a fast attack, fast decay, and
a
> > relatively low sustain level -- low enough to filter out most of the
> > harmonics, but not so low as to mute the sound. Set the AEG to a
similar
> > shape, but set the sustain very high, maybe 118 or so. After some
tweaking
> > by ear, you should have a flute timbre that sounds good for mellow
solos --
> > think soft jazz, not Jethro Tull. You may find that adding a little
noise
> > to the mix improves the illusion, but use it sparingly. One VCO may be
> > enough to create the sound; if you want to use the second one, set it to
> > the same waveform, make it an octave above the first, about 25% of the
> > original volume, with only a very slight fine pitch detune.
> >
> > Now, you need to "Mellotron-ize" the sound. First, as you already
noted,
> > the attack on the Mellotron was never very quick, owing to the nature of
> > the tape system used in the instrument. Back the attack of both the FEG
> > and AEG until you have a more calliope-like sound. If you want a good
> > example -- Strawberry Fields is not the best one I can think of -- use
the
> > Dance of the Puppets section of King Crimson's "The Court of the Crimson
> > King," which is actually the same sound on the same instrument. After
> > that, you need to EQ the result to give it that hollow sound that the
> > Mellotron was famous for -- add a little boost at 125Hz and 3.8kHz, and
> > drop the 1kHz a little. The effect you're looking for is that of an old
> > movie soundtrack. Then add a little slow flange to the mix, and a
little
> > PMOD using the same LFO speed, to simulate the wow and flutter that the
> > tape drive caused. Use the pitch modulation sparingly, as the detuning
was
> > not all that noticeable.
> >
> > Finally, a little (mis-)tuning simulation is probably in order. Use one
of
> > the matrix controls to add a little fine pitch decrease based on key
> > tracking, and if the end result causes the whole patch to go flat,
> > compensate with the fine pitch controls on the VCOs.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > -BW
> >
> > --
> > Bruce Wahler
> > Design Consultant
> > Ashby Solutions"
> > www.ashbysolutions.com
> > CloneWheel Support Group moderator
> > 978.386.7389 voice
> > 978.776.0096 fax
> > bruce@...
> >
> >
> >
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