The Yamaha AN1x Synthesizer mailing list

----- Original Message ----- 
Fra: Bruce Wahler <bruce@...>
Til: <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
Sendt: 9. mars 2001 21:01
Emne: Re: SV: [AN1x-list] FM synthesis (long post)


> Jim,
> 
> >when you mention the others had 4 or 6 operators...does the AN1x have only 
> >one?
> 
> OK, it's time for a class of FM 101 ... ;^)  Please pardon me if I end up 
> talking down to you; I'm going to assume that you are an FM novice.
> 

No problem! As I mentioned..I am a novice. I do know what happens when waves are combined, even used to have the instantanous voltage, etc. formulas down...but it's
been a long time and I never was great at it (needed a calculator, AND to concentrate).

> Wow, this was longer than I hoped!  I hope it helps you a little.  If you 
> have any more questions, contact me off-line, so we don't waste any more 
> time on the list.

That was great (I snipped it for the reply for brevity)! And I really apreciate your taking the time to write this down. I still need to wrap my head around the syncing of vc01 and vc02, why one would chose one over the otehr for master-slave..

One thing especially...when some of the algorithms have an option called "fixed" does that effectively turn the option off...out of the picture?

I assume you've been here longer, and know about the list...but for the short time I've been here I have seen mail form other novices and I can't believe they would want to miss out on this kind of good explanation of theory, about one of the central modules.

I certainly can take it off line...but isn't the purpose of this list to discuss exactly this kind of thing? Have most of the people here already been through this?

(by the way..any idea of the number of listers?)

Thanks once again...this is exactly what I need to have..someone that can explain these kinds of thing in a more natural manner...instead of "manual style" and I would bet it helped a lot of other folks!

Thanks,

JIm
                          James R. Acker
     jacker@... listen to my music at.....
==============================================================
My first CD "Tabasco Road" can be heard at http://www.connectpoint.com/acker
    (With thanks to Mike Jones for hosting it)
My current songs can be now heard at my site: http://home.sol.no/~jacker/

> 
> Regards,
> 
> -BW
> 
> --
> Bruce Wahler
> Design Consultant
> Ashby Solutions"
> www.ashbysolutions.com
> CloneWheel Support Group moderator
> 978.386.7389  voice
> 978.776.0096  fax
> bruce@...
> 
> 
> 
> Community email addresses:
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>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
>

Jim,

>I still need to wrap my head around the syncing of vc01 and vc02, why one 
>would chose one over the other for master-slave..

In principle, it doesn't matter which wave is the slave for syncing, but in 
practice, once a VCO is selected, the waveforms of the two VCOs can be 
pruned to include only the most musically useful ones.  It may simplify the 
design, which usually translates into a cost savings.

>One thing especially...when some of the algorithms have an option called 
>"fixed" does that effectively turn the option off...out of the picture?

Fixed doesn't turn syncing off; it just fixes the frequency of the slave 
oscillator.  If we look at how syncing works, the master oscillator 'says,' 
"Look, the slave oscillator can do anything it likes, frequency-wise, but 
every time I reach the start of my waveform (0 degrees), I'm going to force 
the slave back to 0 degrees, too."  This is a kind of modulation, and like 
other modulation types, results in a wave that has frequency components of 
both the carrier and modulator.  IMHO, fixed-frequency syncing is less 
musically interesting than variable-frequency syncing, just like a sine 
wave is less musically interesting than a sawtooth -- but that's a 
generalization.  Both sines and fixed syncing have their use, musically.

>I assume you've been here longer, and know about the list...but for the 
>short time I've been here I have seen mail form other novices and I can't 
>believe they would want to miss out on this kind of good explanation of 
>theory, about one of the central modules.

Actually, I've only been on the list for about 2 1/2 weeks.  My advantages 
are:  a) I'm an electrical engineer whose specialty is analog electronics; 
and b) I was fortunate enough to go to a college in the mid-70s where I had 
access to a Minimoog, a Putney VCS3, and a Buchla.  The access to 
non-programmed, analog synths means that I had to learn how to do things 
from scratch, rather than depend on a library of sounds created by the 
manufacturer.  A pain in the butt then; a clear advantage now.  When I 
first got the AN1x, I spent a week of, "Wow!  You mean you can sync the 
VCOs to LFO1, and still have VCO2 left over???" and such.

>I certainly can take it off line...but isn't the purpose of this list to 
>discuss exactly this kind of thing? Have most of the people here already 
>been through this?

A good question for the group:  Was my explanation to Jim useful to others, 
or was it a case of, "Oh no!  Not another round of synth theory!"  I'm a 
relative newbie here, so a poll might be in order.

>(by the way..any idea of the number of listers?)

~400


Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions"
www.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group moderator
978.386.7389  voice
978.776.0096  fax
bruce@...

So, Bruce, don't you think the vast collective of the keyboardist community
sound a collective "duh" when discussing true FM synthesis?  It awfully
complicated, and you've done a nice job of overviewing it, and at I do
appreciate the discussion.

You said that you had access to old mono synths that you'd patch up from
scratch.  I did too - you old dog. ;-)  Imagine trying to do that with an FM
synth!  With subtractive synthesis an instinct develops as to what works
(and Yamaha has even given us the sound templates in the AN).  With FM it's
pretty hard to guess how to set up a sound.  I would suppose that the
majority of patches for the DX series that were musically useful may have
been stumbled upon at first, rather than thought out.

As far as the FM abilities of the AN1x go, it's been given the modulation
capabilities of DCO driven synths of the 80s, like the Roland JX series with
the master/slave thing.  What one gets when using an FM setup is something
more than the standard sine, saw and pulse waves.  One classic "sync"
(another term for analog FM) sound that I can recall is the lead line at the
beginning of The Cars' "Let's Go", or the synth line from "I'm Just a Girl"
by No Doubt.  They've got a vocal quality to them as the filter closes down.
But the bottom line about FM in the AN1x is that it is somewhat limited.

Ed Edwards

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Wahler" <bruce@...>
To: <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: SV: SV: [AN1x-list] FM synthesis (long post)


> Jim,
>
> >I still need to wrap my head around the syncing of vc01 and vc02, why one
> >would chose one over the other for master-slave..
>
> In principle, it doesn't matter which wave is the slave for syncing, but
in
> practice, once a VCO is selected, the waveforms of the two VCOs can be
> pruned to include only the most musically useful ones.  It may simplify
the
> design, which usually translates into a cost savings.
>
> >One thing especially...when some of the algorithms have an option called
> >"fixed" does that effectively turn the option off...out of the picture?
>
> Fixed doesn't turn syncing off; it just fixes the frequency of the slave
> oscillator.  If we look at how syncing works, the master oscillator
'says,'
> "Look, the slave oscillator can do anything it likes, frequency-wise, but
> every time I reach the start of my waveform (0 degrees), I'm going to
force
> the slave back to 0 degrees, too."  This is a kind of modulation, and like
> other modulation types, results in a wave that has frequency components of
> both the carrier and modulator.  IMHO, fixed-frequency syncing is less
> musically interesting than variable-frequency syncing, just like a sine
> wave is less musically interesting than a sawtooth -- but that's a
> generalization.  Both sines and fixed syncing have their use, musically.
>
> >I assume you've been here longer, and know about the list...but for the
> >short time I've been here I have seen mail form other novices and I can't
> >believe they would want to miss out on this kind of good explanation of
> >theory, about one of the central modules.
>
> Actually, I've only been on the list for about 2 1/2 weeks.  My advantages
> are:  a) I'm an electrical engineer whose specialty is analog electronics;
> and b) I was fortunate enough to go to a college in the mid-70s where I
had
> access to a Minimoog, a Putney VCS3, and a Buchla.  The access to
> non-programmed, analog synths means that I had to learn how to do things
> from scratch, rather than depend on a library of sounds created by the
> manufacturer.  A pain in the butt then; a clear advantage now.  When I
> first got the AN1x, I spent a week of, "Wow!  You mean you can sync the
> VCOs to LFO1, and still have VCO2 left over???" and such.
>
> >I certainly can take it off line...but isn't the purpose of this list to
> >discuss exactly this kind of thing? Have most of the people here already
> >been through this?
>
> A good question for the group:  Was my explanation to Jim useful to
others,

> or was it a case of, "Oh no!  Not another round of synth theory!"  I'm a
> relative newbie here, so a poll might be in order.
>
> >(by the way..any idea of the number of listers?)
>
> ~400
>
>
> Regards,
>
> -BW
>
> --
> Bruce Wahler
> Design Consultant
> Ashby Solutions"
> www.ashbysolutions.com
> CloneWheel Support Group moderator
> 978.386.7389  voice
> 978.776.0096  fax
> bruce@...
>
>
>
> Community email addresses:
>   Post message: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
>   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   List owner:   AN1x-list-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Ed,

>So, Bruce, don't you think the vast collective of the keyboardist community
>sound a collective "duh" when discussing true FM synthesis?  It awfully
>complicated, and you've done a nice job of overviewing it, and at I do
>appreciate the discussion.

The complexity was clearly FM's downfall.  Very few players mastered the 
art of programming, and in fact, a cottage industry arose just to take care 
of the need to program instruments.  I, for one, would never seriously 
consider purchasing subtractive synthesis patches, but FM was another story 
altogether!  I was always on the lookout for useful raw material.

>You said that you had access to old mono synths that you'd patch up from
>scratch.  I did too - you old dog. ;-)  Imagine trying to do that with an 
>FM synth!  With subtractive synthesis an instinct develops as to what works
>(and Yamaha has even given us the sound templates in the AN).  With FM it's
>pretty hard to guess how to set up a sound.  I would suppose that the
>majority of patches for the DX series that were musically useful may have
>been stumbled upon at first, rather than thought out.

Actually, I suspect that it was the other way around, to a great 
degree.  The quickest way that I found to create FM sounds was to be as 
methodical and analytic as possible.  I tried "prospecting" -- just 
twiddling settings to see what happens -- on both my DX9 and TX81z, and I 
only ended up with 2-3 useable sounds for hours of effort.  It's extremely 
easy to arrive at an approximation of white noise on an FM synth; most of 
my forays ended up in just such a mess.

Nevertheless, it was possible to arrive at a very useful set of sounds, 
with enough programming and dissecting of others' programs.  I eventually 
learned how to do a sawtooth and PWM on the DX9 (no small feat), and for a 
while I even played live with nothing other than FOUR TX81z's!

>One classic "sync" (another term for analog FM) sound that I can recall is 
>the lead line at the beginning of The Cars' "Let's Go", or the synth line 
>from "I'm Just a Girl" by No Doubt.  They've got a vocal quality to them 
>as the filter closes down.

Sync leads are terrific for cutting though a mix, and for their vocal-like 
timbres.  I don't know if I would call oscillator sync "analog FM," 
though.  Their end results are similar, but the actual approaches are 
different.


Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions"
www.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group moderator
978.386.7389  voice
978.776.0096  fax
bruce@...

Ed Edwards wrote:

> So, Bruce, don't you think the vast collective of the keyboardist
> community
> sound a collective "duh" when discussing true FM synthesis?  It
> awfully
> complicated, and you've done a nice job of overviewing it, and at I do
>
> appreciate the discussion.
>
> You said that you had access to old mono synths that you'd patch up
> from
> scratch.  I did too - you old dog. ;-)  Imagine trying to do that with
> an FM
> synth!  With subtractive synthesis an instinct develops as to what
> works
> (and Yamaha has even given us the sound templates in the AN).  With FM
> it's
> pretty hard to guess how to set up a sound.  I would suppose that the
> majority of patches for the DX series that were musically useful may
> have
> been stumbled upon at first, rather than thought out.

 I have no problem making new musically useful sounds on my old DX7II
from scratch, maybe other have.

> As far as the FM abilities of the AN1x go, it's been given the
> modulation
> capabilities of DCO driven synths of the 80s, like the Roland JX
> series with
> the master/slave thing.

Bummer the JX series don't have FM, what you are referring to is Sync.

> What one gets when using an FM setup is something
> more than the standard sine, saw and pulse waves.  One classic "sync"
> (another term for analog FM)

I see... You think FM and Sync are the same its not. and it doesn't
sound the same.

    FM = The frequency (the pitch) of and oscillator is modulated
typically by the output of an other oscillator.
    SYNC = For example if oscillator1 is the master and oscillator2 is
the slave oscillator2 wave forms is re triggered each time Oscillator1
have played a wave cycle

sound that I can recall is the lead line at the

> beginning of The Cars' "Let's Go", or the synth line from "I'm Just a
> Girl"
> by No Doubt.  They've got a vocal quality to them as the filter closes
> down.
> But the bottom line about FM in the AN1x is that it is somewhat
> limited.

I agree at least they should have made it so the output of an oscillator
modulate the frequency of an oscillator, at first it seems it does but I
found out it is only using a triangle wave for FM.

Joergen Traun.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No man we're all learning from you...thanks !  Don't stop.
Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards,

Bastiaan van de Werk
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Wahler <bruce@...>
To: <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: SV: SV: [AN1x-list] FM synthesis (long post)


> Jim,
>
> >I still need to wrap my head around the syncing of vc01 and vc02, why one
> >would chose one over the other for master-slave..
>
> In principle, it doesn't matter which wave is the slave for syncing, but
in
> practice, once a VCO is selected, the waveforms of the two VCOs can be
> pruned to include only the most musically useful ones.  It may simplify
the
> design, which usually translates into a cost savings.
>
> >One thing especially...when some of the algorithms have an option called
> >"fixed" does that effectively turn the option off...out of the picture?
>
> Fixed doesn't turn syncing off; it just fixes the frequency of the slave
> oscillator.  If we look at how syncing works, the master oscillator
'says,'
> "Look, the slave oscillator can do anything it likes, frequency-wise, but
> every time I reach the start of my waveform (0 degrees), I'm going to
force
> the slave back to 0 degrees, too."  This is a kind of modulation, and like
> other modulation types, results in a wave that has frequency components of
> both the carrier and modulator.  IMHO, fixed-frequency syncing is less
> musically interesting than variable-frequency syncing, just like a sine
> wave is less musically interesting than a sawtooth -- but that's a
> generalization.  Both sines and fixed syncing have their use, musically.
>
> >I assume you've been here longer, and know about the list...but for the
> >short time I've been here I have seen mail form other novices and I can't
> >believe they would want to miss out on this kind of good explanation of
> >theory, about one of the central modules.
>
> Actually, I've only been on the list for about 2 1/2 weeks.  My advantages
> are:  a) I'm an electrical engineer whose specialty is analog electronics;
> and b) I was fortunate enough to go to a college in the mid-70s where I
had
> access to a Minimoog, a Putney VCS3, and a Buchla.  The access to
> non-programmed, analog synths means that I had to learn how to do things
> from scratch, rather than depend on a library of sounds created by the
> manufacturer.  A pain in the butt then; a clear advantage now.  When I
> first got the AN1x, I spent a week of, "Wow!  You mean you can sync the
> VCOs to LFO1, and still have VCO2 left over???" and such.
>
> >I certainly can take it off line...but isn't the purpose of this list to
> >discuss exactly this kind of thing? Have most of the people here already
> >been through this?
>
> A good question for the group:  Was my explanation to Jim useful to
others,

> or was it a case of, "Oh no!  Not another round of synth theory!"  I'm a
> relative newbie here, so a poll might be in order.
>
> >(by the way..any idea of the number of listers?)
>
> ~400
>
>
> Regards,
>
> -BW
>
> --
> Bruce Wahler
> Design Consultant
> Ashby Solutions"
> www.ashbysolutions.com
> CloneWheel Support Group moderator
> 978.386.7389  voice
> 978.776.0096  fax
> bruce@...
>
>
>
> Community email addresses:
>   Post message: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
>   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   List owner:   AN1x-list-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>