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Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

2000-12-11 by Robert Grimble

Hey, to my mind, the next generation of computer music will be a  general 
purpose computer, probably PC style, with a sound card that does digital to 
analog and analog to digital converting.  The time for this -- from a user 
standpoint -- is long past.

BUT from the standpoint of Yamaha, etc., what is in it for them?  Yeh, they 
could build something that is really similar to the above, and put it in a 
rack mount box, and keep hitting you up for the upgrades.

However, they make more money selling hardware and dedicated 
boxes.  Software gets stolen, and a lot of people don't think twice about 
using a bootleg copy of a program or giving a copy to their friends.  That 
makes it really hard for the company selling the programs to make money, so 
instead you wind up with hardware.  I really don't believe that the 
processing power in an AN1X or VL70 or MU128 is no more than a moderately 
hot Pentium.  So Yamaha could build a general purpose box (that you could 
upgrade from time to time with more memory, faster processor etc) and you 
buy the programs on disk or ROM card.  But it doesn't make sense from a 
marketing point of view.

So what about your problem?

To my mind, if you are performing live, get a decent rack mount 
sampler.  It is easier to set up something like that in a hurry than to 
play around with a PC.  It is probably a little more rugged also.  I would 
suggest that you not buy the newest and hottest thing out.  Whenever I do 
that, I realize a month or two later that I still owe more on the credit 
card than I would have to pay at the music store, because the price went 
down so fast.  Plus, the year or two old samplers are really good.  You can 
get a K2000 for a few hundred bucks on ebay ($600 to 900, depending).  The 
Akai's are cheaper, and really very easy to use.  I had an older Yamaha 
TX16W, which had some really neat features, but it was I think a 12 bit 
sampler, and a bear to use -- but they are around in the 100 to $200 
range.  You can get an Akai S950 for the same type of price, but it is also 
a 12 bit sampler.  Great for drums and sampling stacked synths, but it 
lacks on wind instruments.  Strangely, Violin and other strings come out ok 
on 12 bit samplers.  Trumpet blows.

Have you looked into the EX5R -- it has a VL module and a GX module and a 
sampler/sequencer.  I don't have one, but the first time I see one at $700 
buck, it's mine.

Also, if you have dreams of doing your own samples, try before you buy.  I 
really thought I would do all this fantastic stuff making the *best* 
samples.  And then I realized that doing a really good sample of an 
instrument could take 20 or 30 hours of work.  So I buy or download patches.

Depending on what music and where you are playing -- often the fidelity in 
a live performance is not as important as in recording, because the amps 
and speakers in live performances tend to be fairly low fidelity.  Not 
always, but really often.  So you might be able to live with an older 
sampler you pick up on EBAY for $250.

Bob G

You wrote:

Thinking of a esi 4000 or 2000, something along those lines. Or if I should 
just build a computer dedicated to audio. And use some sampling programs 
and also use it to sequence. I will most likely and hopefully be using this 
set up live and it will have the An1x, a akai ax73 and in time a drum pad 
system running in/out of it. I think a computer would be a more useful way 
to go but I really do like hardware better...easier to use, less 
crashes....more buttons... but also more money which I don't have.

Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

2000-12-11 by Peter Korsten

Robert Grimble shared with us:
> 
> Hey, to my mind, the next generation of computer music will be a general 
> purpose computer, probably PC style, with a sound card that does digital to 
> analog and analog to digital converting. The time for this -- from a user 
> standpoint -- is long past.

I kinda doubt that. Computers aren't generally known for easy of
use when it comes to music.

For instance, my instruments take at most some four seconds to
initialise after power on.

A personal computer is a general purpose device, which means it
can do about anything, but that doesn't mean it's actually any good
at it. Dedicated hardware will *always* beat general purpose
hardware. There is no way that personal computers will eventually
overtake synthesisers, because synthesisers are computers too.

However, developing dedicated hardware is very expensive. What I
would expect is a rack housing that holds several PLG cards - there
already is such a product - or perhaps a box that houses VST effects
and synths.

But though there will be a shift towards PC/Mac based instruments,
this will probably be on the lower end, where budgets are more
tight. At one point, you want an instrument, not fidgeting around
with setting, latencies and weird computer problems.

> Have you looked into the EX5R -- it has a VL module and a GX module and a 
> sampler/sequencer. I don't have one, but the first time I see one at $700 
> buck, it's mine.

I have an EX5S (silver edition), and while it is a wonderful
instrument, I'm not going to use it as a sampler. There are boxes
that offer better performance at a lower overall price and lower
levels of frustration. Keep in mind that you need SCSI, extra RAM,
extra outputs, and possibly flash as well. This adds up considerably.

It's EMU Ultra for me, as soon as I can afford it.

- Peter

Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

2000-12-11 by teomi@cs.com

to comment on the things you said... you said true stuff about synthesizers 
and computers.
it is true that there will be always synths, no doubt about it. you reffer a 
computer as a general purpose...if you treat the computer like that you are 
right it'll crash and not function. you have to treat the computer as a 
musical instrument and design it properly to do ONE thing : MUSIC ..not word 
processing..internet...screensaver...email..shareware...game machine.
when you do that and follow experienced DAW builders design, you get a rock 
solid machine that does one thing : MUSIC.

and now about soft synths... lower end???? did you see you advertise Giga 
sampler? and Reality? Hans Zimmer uses Giga all the time and he what..only 
one an Oscar.
no pun intended but Giga sampler, Reality and other softsynths are extremely 
powerful and sounds superb.

Eitan Teomi.

<A HREF="http://ourworld.cs.com/teomi">http://ourworld.cs.com/teomi</A>

Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

2000-12-11 by Elson Trinidad

teomi@... wrote:
> 
> to comment on the things you said... you said true stuff about synthesizers
> and computers.
> it is true that there will be always synths, no doubt about it. 

It's funny, when synthesizers started getting used by the general public, back
in the 70s-80s, people feared it would replace the piano and even other instruments.

Synths are here to stay, obviously and are common musical instruments now. 
Now we're fearing software will replace them.

Pianos are 300 years old, but people are still using them...


Elson


						 - 30 -

 :. elson trinidad, los angeles, california, usa
 :. elson@...
 :. www.westworld.com/~elson
 
   "music is a form of rapid transportation" - john cage

 [ the futurethnic beats of e:trinity - www.e-trinity.org ]

Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

2000-12-11 by Peter Korsten

From: "Robert Grimble" <cthulhu@...>

> Have you looked into the EX5R -- it has a VL module and a GX module and a
> sampler/sequencer.  I don't have one, but the first time I see one at $700
> buck, it's mine.

By the way, there is no such thing as GX. There is a Yamaha GX1 - it's
something else, believe me.

The EX series are not General MIDI, GS or XG compatible. There is a GM sound
set on a CD that comes with the unit, but you need (flash) RAM for that.

You can use either VL (sounds superb), AN (one fifth AN1x) or FDSP (unique
to the EX series), but not any of them together. And it costs you an insert
effect. (Still, you can use 126 voices of lucious AWM2.)

The sequencer takes some getting used to.

All in all, I *love* my EX5, I really do. Great big keyboard, lots of
controllers, fantastic sound. But you should regard it as a supersynth, not
as a workstation. That's something it can't live up to.

- Peter

Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

2000-12-11 by Peter Korsten

From: <teomi@...>

> and now about soft synths... lower end???? did you see you advertise Giga
> sampler? and Reality? Hans Zimmer uses Giga all the time and he what..only
> one an Oscar.
> no pun intended but Giga sampler, Reality and other softsynths are
extremely
> powerful and sounds superb.

Oh, I have no doubt about that. But suppose you work outside a studio, where
equipment gets occassionally dropped, where there's several hundreds of
kilowatts of interference around, is a software solution still the best?

I think that software instruments will be popular on the lower end - home
musicians, bedroom studios, aspiring amateurs - because they can't afford
the "real thing". (Well, except for that friend of mine who recently bought
a K2600X and the sampling option.) Hey, you could even make an illegal copy,
saves even more money.

For a studio environment, we'll see more and more computers used, though.
Especially outboard effects is going to get some kicking, I expect. Then
again, I don't see a Lexicon 960L replaced anytime soon.

- Peter

Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

2000-12-12 by Peter Korsten

kees balde shared with us:
> Yes, pianos are still in use, but there are many instruments (see medieval
> instruments) that are very old fashioned and nobody (except freaks at
> universities) plays on them anymore. So the synthesizer may be replaced by
> something better.......maybe

There were predecessors to the piano, that aren't in use anymore.
The piano is a highly evolved instrument, and it is better than
what came before it.

The same goes for more primitive medieval instruments. You can
still get them, but they have been overtaken by the guitar. And
since "everyone" uses a guitar, every publication is about guitar,
and thus everyone uses a guitar...

But synthesisers as a whole are a group of constantly evolving
instruments, which sets them apart from more traditional, accoustic
ones. There isn't much development of actual new accoustic instruments:
the saxophone was one of the last ones to make an impact.

So synthesisers won't be replaced, though they will evolve. Whether
they will ever stop evolving - will there be a time when all
synthesis methods have been invented and perfected? - is an
interesting question.

Developments seem to point towards seperation of instrument and
interface (soft synths and PLG boards), and modelling is still
going on.

- Peter

Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

2000-12-12 by kees balde

Yes, pianos are still in use, but there are many instruments (see medieval
instruments) that are very old fashioned and nobody (except freaks at
universities) plays on them anymore. So the synthesizer may be replaced by
something better.......maybe


----- Original Message -----
From: Elson Trinidad <elson@...>
To: <AN1x-list@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)


>
>
> teomi@... wrote:
> >
> > to comment on the things you said... you said true stuff about
synthesizers
> > and computers.
> > it is true that there will be always synths, no doubt about it.
>
> It's funny, when synthesizers started getting used by the general public,
back
> in the 70s-80s, people feared it would replace the piano and even other
instruments.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Synths are here to stay, obviously and are common musical instruments now.
> Now we're fearing software will replace them.
>
> Pianos are 300 years old, but people are still using them...
>
>
> Elson
>
>
> - 30 -
>
>  :. elson trinidad, los angeles, california, usa
>  :. elson@...
>  :. www.westworld.com/~elson
>
>    "music is a form of rapid transportation" - john cage
>
>  [ the futurethnic beats of e:trinity - www.e-trinity.org ]
>
>
> Community email addresses:
>   Post message: AN1x-list@onelist.com
>   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@onelist.com
>   Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>   List owner:   AN1x-list-owner@onelist.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>   http://www.onelist.com/community/AN1x-list
>
>

Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

2000-12-13 by kees balde

the ways of synthesis are in theory infinitive.....but I think it will stop
to evolve at some time, because no great improvements will be made.
And then..........some new device will conquer the world of modern music
with something totally new.
The same as theories in science.


----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Korsten <peterk@...>
To: <AN1x-list@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:51 AM
Subject: Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)


> kees balde shared with us:
> > Yes, pianos are still in use, but there are many instruments (see
medieval
> > instruments) that are very old fashioned and nobody (except freaks at
> > universities) plays on them anymore. So the synthesizer may be replaced
by
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > something better.......maybe
>
> There were predecessors to the piano, that aren't in use anymore.
> The piano is a highly evolved instrument, and it is better than
> what came before it.
>
> The same goes for more primitive medieval instruments. You can
> still get them, but they have been overtaken by the guitar. And
> since "everyone" uses a guitar, every publication is about guitar,
> and thus everyone uses a guitar...
>
> But synthesisers as a whole are a group of constantly evolving
> instruments, which sets them apart from more traditional, accoustic
> ones. There isn't much development of actual new accoustic instruments:
> the saxophone was one of the last ones to make an impact.
>
> So synthesisers won't be replaced, though they will evolve. Whether
> they will ever stop evolving - will there be a time when all
> synthesis methods have been invented and perfected? - is an
> interesting question.
>
> Developments seem to point towards seperation of instrument and
> interface (soft synths and PLG boards), and modelling is still
> going on.
>
> - Peter
>
>
> Community email addresses:
>   Post message: AN1x-list@onelist.com
>   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@onelist.com
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>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
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>
>

Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

2000-12-13 by PinheadX

From: "Elson Trinidad" <elson@...>
> Synths are here to stay, obviously and are common musical instruments now.
> Now we're fearing software will replace them.
> Elson

Not running under "Winblows"..:-)

PinheadX.

Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

2000-12-13 by Elson Trinidad

PinheadX wrote:
> 
> From: "Elson Trinidad" <elson@...>
> > Synths are here to stay, obviously and are common musical instruments now.
> > Now we're fearing software will replace them.
> > Elson
> 
> Not running under "Winblows"..:-)


Actually none of the currently used OS platforms are ideal for music. Not
Windows, not Mac, not even Linux. Hopefully in the future there will be an OS
made specific for music/audio/professional multimedia gear, which can be
installed or interfaced with certain types of equipment, and dedicated
music-only computers or hardware devices that it can work with. 



						 - 30 -

 :. elson trinidad, los angeles, california, usa
 :. elson@...
 :. www.westworld.com/~elson
 
   "music is a form of rapid transportation" - john cage

 [ the futurethnic beats of e:trinity - www.e-trinity.org ]

Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

2000-12-13 by Darren M Boudreau

Supposedly BeOS is designed with multimedia in mind. But... there's
always a but...

Darren 

On Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:49:35 -0800 Elson Trinidad <elson@...>
writes:
> 
> 
> PinheadX wrote:
> > 
> > From: "Elson Trinidad" <elson@...>
> > > Synths are here to stay, obviously and are common musical 
> instruments now.
> > > Now we're fearing software will replace them.
> > > Elson
> > 
> > Not running under "Winblows"..:-)
> 
> 
> Actually none of the currently used OS platforms are ideal for 
> music. Not
> Windows, not Mac, not even Linux. Hopefully in the future there will 
> be an OS
> made specific for music/audio/professional multimedia gear, which 
> can be
> installed or interfaced with certain types of equipment, and 
> dedicated
> music-only computers or hardware devices that it can work with. 
> 
> 
> 
> 						 - 30 -
> 
>  :. elson trinidad, los angeles, california, usa
>  :. elson@...
>  :. www.westworld.com/~elson
>  
>    "music is a form of rapid transportation" - john cage
> 
>  [ the futurethnic beats of e:trinity - www.e-trinity.org ]
> 
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Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

2000-12-13 by Peter Korsten

From: "kees balde" <c.p.balde@...>

> the ways of synthesis are in theory infinitive.....but I think it will
stop
> to evolve at some time, because no great improvements will be made.
> And then..........some new device will conquer the world of modern music
> with something totally new.
> The same as theories in science.

Depends on what kind of science. Mathematics, for instance, doesn't have
many secrets left.

To me, it appears as accoustic instrument development has come to a
stand-still, at least in regard to new kinds of instruments.

Even in electronic instrument design, things seem to be slowing down. The
last really revolutionary step was the Yamaha VL1 in 1995, and to a somewhat
less degree the Yamaha FS1r in 1998, but that was based much on an older
design.

But there isn't much more than accoustic instruments and synthesisers,
because the latter is such a large group. There were the Rhodes, Hammonds
and the like, that are somewhere in between. But nothing is happening on
that front either.

So now we have modelling effects, but after that? I couldn't possibly tell.
More modularity, more combining of existing techniques into unusual
combinations... or perhaps someone will come up with something totally new,
or the Theory of Everything, for that matter.

- Peter

Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

2000-12-13 by teomi@cs.com

there is something beyond synths and acoustic instruments and it lies within 
dedicated music synthesis languages such as CSound, SuperCollider, and CDP 
which hard very hard to learn but opening unkown doors in synthsis and design.

Eitan Teomi.

<A HREF="http://ourworld.cs.com/teomi">http://ourworld.cs.com/teomi</A>

RE: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

2000-12-13 by Gary Gregson

Peter wrote:

>>
Depends on what kind of science. Mathematics, for instance, doesn't have
many secrets left.
<<

Wow!!!...that's a bold statement!!! I guess all those theoretical
mathematicians may as well pack up and go home now :-)

Its more likely that maths has many times more secrets left than we have
already discovered/invented. The limitation is not what's out there, but the
size of our brains and the current norms of thinking.

>>
So now we have modelling effects, but after that? I couldn't possibly tell.
More modularity, more combining of existing techniques into unusual
combinations... or perhaps someone will come up with something totally new,
or the Theory of Everything, for that matter.
<<

There are still many know mechanisms to explore in the creation of synthetic
sound. Like maths and the size of our brains, the real limitation is not
what's there to be discovered....but the processing power required to
realise it.

For this reason alone; hardware based synths (i.e specialised computers as
opposed to general purpose PC machines) will always have a future!

Regards

Gary
Email:
     gary@...
     http://www.yme.co.uk/yme

Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)

2000-12-15 by kees balde

Well I think mathematics still has a lot of secrets, a lot of mathematical
problems can't be solved exactly, only numerically, shortcomings on our
theories I think. And mathematics is always searching for faster algorhytms
so solve problems.


----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Korsten <peterk@...>
To: AN1x mailing list <an1x-list@egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: [AN1x-list] Sampler v. computer (Slighly off topic)


> From: "kees balde" <c.p.balde@...>
>
> > the ways of synthesis are in theory infinitive.....but I think it will
> stop
> > to evolve at some time, because no great improvements will be made.
> > And then..........some new device will conquer the world of modern music
> > with something totally new.
> > The same as theories in science.
>
> Depends on what kind of science. Mathematics, for instance, doesn't have
> many secrets left.
>
> To me, it appears as accoustic instrument development has come to a
> stand-still, at least in regard to new kinds of instruments.
>
> Even in electronic instrument design, things seem to be slowing down. The
> last really revolutionary step was the Yamaha VL1 in 1995, and to a
somewhat
> less degree the Yamaha FS1r in 1998, but that was based much on an older
> design.
>
> But there isn't much more than accoustic instruments and synthesisers,
> because the latter is such a large group. There were the Rhodes, Hammonds
> and the like, that are somewhere in between. But nothing is happening on
> that front either.
>
> So now we have modelling effects, but after that? I couldn't possibly
tell.
> More modularity, more combining of existing techniques into unusual
> combinations... or perhaps someone will come up with something totally
new,
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> or the Theory of Everything, for that matter.
>
> - Peter
>
>
>
> Community email addresses:
>   Post message: AN1x-list@onelist.com
>   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@onelist.com
>   Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>   List owner:   AN1x-list-owner@onelist.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>   http://www.onelist.com/community/AN1x-list
>
>