The Yamaha AN1x Synthesizer mailing list

Hello!

It seems my problem is similar but not identical to what has been 
discussed in the Bulk dump thread for the last couple of days. 

I'm using my PLG card sitting in a MU100R, the AN1xEdit, and the 
Yamaha CBX driver through the To Host port on the MU. First I tried 
to download the Killerloop patch from the PLGPreset1.anp file. 
Nothing seems to happen, at least not on the MU display. Since I'm 
mostly interested in the SysEx view of the communication between the 
components I recently added the MIDIOX to the chain. It's really a 
great tool. I'm running my PC on Windows NT4 and I can get no 
sequencer to function properly on that OS, so Thank God (or rather 
Jamie and Jerry) for the MIDIOX!

Unfortunately the Request function in the AN1x mode is disabled in 
the PLG mode with the AN1xEdit. Instead I performed the Dump 16 parts 
command with the MU into the MIDIOX. I get such a multitude of bytes, 
so I can't distinguish which is the part 1 I have assigned the PLG 
to. Maybe the Dump 16 parts doesn't include the settings on Plug In 
cards at all. 

One of the reasons I've done this work is, that I think the patches 
with PLGPreset files are not same as those sitting in the PLG card. 
Comparing the Killerloop patch loaded into the AN1xEdit with the info 
from the PLG manual regarding the Killer patch on the card doesn't 
produce the same result. This also goes for some other patch 
comparisons with identical names. I'm really interested to get the 
PLG patches into the AN1xEdit, so how am going to do?

Regards,
Lars

Hi Lars,

In common with all Yamaha soundcards and PLG boards....it is NOT possible to
dump parameters from the PLG150AN card. Yamaha simply do not provide bulk
requests or a return path from the card  (their reasoning is that any
changes to the card MUST have arrived from an external source....hence that
external source should already know what the parameters are). I don't go
along with this reasoning....particularly in the case you mention where you
want to get at the default ROM preset parameters!

If you perform a bulk dump from an MU unit fitted with a PLG card, you will
get some PLG card specific parameters. However these are merely the
configuration parameters for the card in the XG device (i.e. those you can
edit from the MU front panel). They are at best offsets....they are NOT the
actual voice parameters stored within the card.

It is for this reason that AN1xEdit does not provide the An1x BULK Request
button when operating in PLG mode (if it was available, I can assure you
that I wouldn't have went to the trouble of removing the button in PLG
mode!!!!!!!!)

It is also for this reason that I provide the PLG150AN preset banks as .ANP
files within the An1xEdit installer package.

Obviously, since there is no way to request what is in the PLG150AN ROM, I
have created these files based on information supplied by Yamaha .....or to
put it another way I ripped them out of the PLG150AN editor supplied for
XGworks use. (Incidentally the XGworks editor is actually based upon my
AN1xEdit source code....but YCJ saw fit to give it a 'different' interface
and  unfortunately compromised some of the functionality in the
process...use it at your peril :-)

Therefore I cannot be certain that what is in my supplied preset files is
EXACTLY what is in the PLG150AN ROM. i.e. I could not find anyone at Yamaha
to give me the ACTUAL ROM data!

Therefore it is as close as you are going to get unless you care to go
through each voice and do an aural parameter by parameter comparison! If you
care to do this, please go ahead...but I had neither the time nor
inclination to do such a comparison (after all AN1xEdit is primarily for
creating your own custom voices.... not trying to replicate those that
Yamaha have already supplied!)

Regarding the earlier questions on getting AN voice data into your
sequencer. As I explained, the best way is to export from An1xEdit as a MIDI
file or as a Cakewalk SYX bank. In either case I would not recommend sending
an AN voice bulk mid way through a sequence! The actual sysex is over 1K
long per voice....and is therefore bound to cause a glitch in your
sequencers playback! Furthermore the AN device takes a finite time to
respond to patch changes...so don't expect to be able to switch voices
quickly on the fly (this applies to both the AN1x keyboard and the PLG150AN
card)

My advice would be set up any AN patches at the start of the song (i.e.
leave a couple of black bars for synth setup prior to the music starting to
play). The same is true of general XG synth setup.

If you really want to change AN voices mid song, then you should download
all required patches to the synth user memory bank at the start of the song.
Thereafter you should just use simple program change messages to change
patch (but again don't expect voice change to be instantaneous....the
machine has to reconfigure alot of internal DSP parameters on patch change.
I have seen user who setup patch changes in Cubase parts and then wonder why
the first few notes of the part don't play...the reason is the synth is
still configuring. So send all patch changes at least half a second before
you want a note to sound. In the Cubase example this would mean advancing
the part start time so there is a gap between when the patch is sent and the
first note of the part plays.).

Normally I work by constructing a library of my favourite patches within
An1xEdit. Thereafter I download the whole library to the synth at the start
of the day.

Also if you want to provide alot of voice tweaking during a song you should
avoid excessive use of sysex (i.e. avoid recording lots of AN1xEdit knob
movements into your song using Hubis or OMS IAC). Lots of sysex is
guaranteed to destabilise sequencer playback.

Instead setup the Matrix function of each voice to your preference and use
standard controllers (they are much faster to transmit and also much easier
to edit with standard sequencer controller edit curves and other sequencer
features).

Regards

Gary
Email:
     gary@...
     http://www.yme.co.uk/yme

-----Original Message-----
From: lars.l.arnwald@... [mailto:lars.l.arnwald@...]
Sent: 07 October 2000 16:56
To: AN1x-list@egroups.com
Subject: [AN1x-list] Bulk dumps from PLG150-AN


Hello!

It seems my problem is similar but not identical to what has been
discussed in the Bulk dump thread for the last couple of days.

I'm using my PLG card sitting in a MU100R, the AN1xEdit, and the
Yamaha CBX driver through the To Host port on the MU. First I tried
to download the Killerloop patch from the PLGPreset1.anp file.
Nothing seems to happen, at least not on the MU display. Since I'm
mostly interested in the SysEx view of the communication between the
components I recently added the MIDIOX to the chain. It's really a
great tool. I'm running my PC on Windows NT4 and I can get no
sequencer to function properly on that OS, so Thank God (or rather
Jamie and Jerry) for the MIDIOX!

Unfortunately the Request function in the AN1x mode is disabled in
the PLG mode with the AN1xEdit. Instead I performed the Dump 16 parts
command with the MU into the MIDIOX. I get such a multitude of bytes,
so I can't distinguish which is the part 1 I have assigned the PLG
to. Maybe the Dump 16 parts doesn't include the settings on Plug In
cards at all.

One of the reasons I've done this work is, that I think the patches
with PLGPreset files are not same as those sitting in the PLG card.
Comparing the Killerloop patch loaded into the AN1xEdit with the info
from the PLG manual regarding the Killer patch on the card doesn't
produce the same result. This also goes for some other patch
comparisons with identical names. I'm really interested to get the
PLG patches into the AN1xEdit, so how am going to do?

Regards,
Lars



Community email addresses:
  Post message: AN1x-list@onelist.com
  Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@onelist.com
  Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@onelist.com
  List owner:   AN1x-list-owner@onelist.com

Shortcut URL to this page:
  http://www.onelist.com/community/AN1x-list

Hi Paul,

To some extent you can see their argument. i.e. since the soundcards/PLG
boards have no physical controls (knobs buttons etc) then there is no way to
edit them except via external software. Whereas with a real synth (e.g.
AN1x)  you can change the setup from the front panel controls...so bulk
request is needed.

Still its a pretty lame argument given the cost of implementing bulk request
should not be significant (in fact they probably had to remove it from the
firmware they copied form the original synths ;-)

Regards

Gary
Email:
	gary@...
	http://www.yme.co.uk/yme

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Murphy [mailto:merfman@...]
> Sent: 19 October 2000 03:50
> To: AN1x-list@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: [AN1x-list] Bulk dumps from PLG150-AN
>
>
> I agreee with your disagreement of Yamaha Gary.
>
> Extending Yamaha's logic - why have bulk dump on any MIDI
> instrument at all
> ?
>
> Since all states of an instrument are obtainable by INITIALIZE + ADD ANY
> SIGNALS THAT CAME FROM AN EXTERNAL SOURCE.
>
> AHAHAHAHAHA

From: "Gary Gregson" <gary@...>

> Still its a pretty lame argument given the cost of implementing bulk
request
> should not be significant (in fact they probably had to remove it from the
> firmware they copied form the original synths ;-)

Oh well... since the mLAN announcement, I'm not that much of a Yamaha fan
anymore, really. :)

- Peter

>Oh well... since the mLAN announcement, I'm not that much of a Yamaha fan
>anymore, really. :)

I've always been a huge fan of Yamaha...but I'm wonderring if they are
adopting a new market focus or what?

Dropped the AN1x, dropped the EX series, seem to be ending the MU series
(not sure on this but it just is starting to look this way).

Seem to be quite devoted to their A-series samplers and PSR line (the new
PSR 9000 sounds pretty amazing)...but is that only temporary? Is it possible
they decided that they can no longer be all things to all people? Now thay
have a new keyboard series which you can plug modules into...but not much
fanfare. Are they gaining or losing their focus?

Pablo

From: "Pablo AZ" <PolHarris@...>

> >Oh well... since the mLAN announcement, I'm not that much of a Yamaha fan
> >anymore, really. :)
>
> I've always been a huge fan of Yamaha...but I'm wonderring if they are
> adopting a new market focus or what?
>
> Dropped the AN1x, dropped the EX series, seem to be ending the MU series
> (not sure on this but it just is starting to look this way).
>
> Seem to be quite devoted to their A-series samplers and PSR line (the new
> PSR 9000 sounds pretty amazing)...but is that only temporary? Is it
possible
> they decided that they can no longer be all things to all people? Now thay
> have a new keyboard series which you can plug modules into...but not much
> fanfare. Are they gaining or losing their focus?

Loke someone says, it's the Japanese way of doing business. You have to keep
coming up with new gadgets, otherwise the public gets bored. So the average
product lifetime is about two years.

If you doubt it, look at the lifetime of the EX series, AN1x, FS1r, CS1x,
A3000, QS300, W5/7... it goes on and on.

If you still doubt it, look at the Sony Playstation 2. In Europe and the US,
it will get decent DVD playback hardware, but in Japan it's done - crappy -
via software. Why? Because its lifetime expectancy is so low that it doesn't
matter.

I've become quite disappointed with Yamaha service. I know it's their choice
to conduct service through dealers, but quite frankly I don't give a rat's
arse about their blody business model, since I pay good money for their
products. As far as the dealers are concerned, I usually bring *them* the
news. I tell them about mLAN, and I tell the other I have a silver EX5. He
didn't even know it existed, thought I was mentioning the CS6x.

But since no-one in Hamamatsu wants to get his head out of the sand, I will
concentrate on manufacturers that are willing to bring some continuity in
their product line. Europe and the US will do the job for me.

- Peter

At 12:42 AM 10/9/00 +0200, Peter Korsten wrote:
 
>Loke someone says, it's the Japanese way of doing business. You have to keep
>coming up with new gadgets, otherwise the public gets bored. So the average
>product lifetime is about two years.
 

Hmm. The original DX7 wasn't on the market for two years. How bout the
KX-88? It's their only strictly MIDI controller to date. And NS-10s have
been on the market for decades.



- 30 -
: . elson trinidad, los angeles, california, usa
: . elson@...  :  www.westworld.com/~elson
: . groove to the futurethnic beats of e:trinity at www.e-trinity.org and
www.mp3.com.etrinity

Elson Trinidad shared with us:
> At 12:42 AM 10/9/00 +0200, Peter Korsten wrote:
>  
> >Loke someone says, it's the Japanese way of doing business. You have to keep
> >coming up with new gadgets, otherwise the public gets bored. So the average
> >product lifetime is about two years.
>  
> 
> Hmm. The original DX7 wasn't on the market for two years. How bout the
> KX-88? It's their only strictly MIDI controller to date. And NS-10s have
> been on the market for decades.

Then again, the DX7 has been discontinued as well, as has the KX-88.
I'm not sure if this business practice is something of the last
decade, but please name a Yamaha synth of the last few years that
has been in the catalogue for considerably more than those two,
maybe three years.

By the way, Yamaha has more MIDI controllers: the KX-76, the KX-5
and the (current?) CBXK1. And there' the WX series of wind
comntrollers, plus the guitar controllers, of course.

As for speakers, it's another business unit and there's not much
gadgetry you can put in a speaker. So they don't "age" as fast as
the more technololgy oriented synths do. (Which is rubbish, of
course, since a good synth doesn't age. Otherwisemt he MiniMoog
wouldn't be quite so popular.)

So I think my statement still stands. Mind you, I was quite the
Yamaha fanatic until quite recently, but their business model has
pissed me of big time.

- Peter

Ok, so they have no physical controls.

I can imagine listening to an SW1000XG/PLG150-AN demo sequence and
thinking - gee - I'd like those sounds / effects in one of my compositions.
Oh bugger, there are sysex strewn throughout the song Im going to have to
sit here, go through them all and extract/analyse them so as to reproduce
the state of the devices as they are in bar xxx.

I cant just run the entire sequence up to bar xxx because Yamaha say I dont
need to becuase I can just embed this entire sequence at the beginning of my
song to set it up !

HAHAHA


----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Gregson <gary@...>
To: <AN1x-list@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 12:30 AM
Subject: RE: [AN1x-list] Bulk dumps from PLG150-AN


> Hi Paul,
>
> To some extent you can see their argument. i.e. since the soundcards/PLG
> boards have no physical controls (knobs buttons etc) then there is no way
to
> edit them except via external software. Whereas with a real synth (e.g.
> AN1x)  you can change the setup from the front panel controls...so bulk
> request is needed.
>
> Still its a pretty lame argument given the cost of implementing bulk
request

> should not be significant (in fact they probably had to remove it from the
> firmware they copied form the original synths ;-)
>
> Regards
>
> Gary
> Email:
> gary@...
> http://www.yme.co.uk/yme
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Murphy [mailto:merfman@...]
> > Sent: 19 October 2000 03:50
> > To: AN1x-list@egroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [AN1x-list] Bulk dumps from PLG150-AN
> >
> >
> > I agreee with your disagreement of Yamaha Gary.
> >
> > Extending Yamaha's logic - why have bulk dump on any MIDI
> > instrument at all
> > ?
> >
> > Since all states of an instrument are obtainable by INITIALIZE + ADD ANY
> > SIGNALS THAT CAME FROM AN EXTERNAL SOURCE.
> >
> > AHAHAHAHAHA
>
>
>
> Community email addresses:
>   Post message: AN1x-list@onelist.com
>   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@onelist.com
>   Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>   List owner:   AN1x-list-owner@onelist.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>   http://www.onelist.com/community/AN1x-list
>
>

I agreee with your disagreement of Yamaha Gary.

Extending Yamaha's logic - why have bulk dump on any MIDI instrument at all
?

Since all states of an instrument are obtainable by INITIALIZE + ADD ANY
SIGNALS THAT CAME FROM AN EXTERNAL SOURCE.

AHAHAHAHAHA

----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Gregson <gary@...>
To: <AN1x-list@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 3:10 AM
Subject: RE: [AN1x-list] Bulk dumps from PLG150-AN


> Hi Lars,
>
> In common with all Yamaha soundcards and PLG boards....it is NOT possible
to
> dump parameters from the PLG150AN card. Yamaha simply do not provide bulk
> requests or a return path from the card  (their reasoning is that any
> changes to the card MUST have arrived from an external source....hence
that
> external source should already know what the parameters are). I don't go
> along with this reasoning....particularly in the case you mention where
you
> want to get at the default ROM preset parameters!
>
> If you perform a bulk dump from an MU unit fitted with a PLG card, you
will
> get some PLG card specific parameters. However these are merely the
> configuration parameters for the card in the XG device (i.e. those you can
> edit from the MU front panel). They are at best offsets....they are NOT
the
> actual voice parameters stored within the card.
>
> It is for this reason that AN1xEdit does not provide the An1x BULK Request
> button when operating in PLG mode (if it was available, I can assure you
> that I wouldn't have went to the trouble of removing the button in PLG
> mode!!!!!!!!)
>
> It is also for this reason that I provide the PLG150AN preset banks as
.ANP
> files within the An1xEdit installer package.
>
> Obviously, since there is no way to request what is in the PLG150AN ROM, I
> have created these files based on information supplied by Yamaha .....or
to
> put it another way I ripped them out of the PLG150AN editor supplied for
> XGworks use. (Incidentally the XGworks editor is actually based upon my
> AN1xEdit source code....but YCJ saw fit to give it a 'different' interface
> and  unfortunately compromised some of the functionality in the
> process...use it at your peril :-)
>
> Therefore I cannot be certain that what is in my supplied preset files is
> EXACTLY what is in the PLG150AN ROM. i.e. I could not find anyone at
Yamaha
> to give me the ACTUAL ROM data!
>
> Therefore it is as close as you are going to get unless you care to go
> through each voice and do an aural parameter by parameter comparison! If
you
> care to do this, please go ahead...but I had neither the time nor
> inclination to do such a comparison (after all AN1xEdit is primarily for
> creating your own custom voices.... not trying to replicate those that
> Yamaha have already supplied!)
>
> Regarding the earlier questions on getting AN voice data into your
> sequencer. As I explained, the best way is to export from An1xEdit as a
MIDI
> file or as a Cakewalk SYX bank. In either case I would not recommend
sending
> an AN voice bulk mid way through a sequence! The actual sysex is over 1K
> long per voice....and is therefore bound to cause a glitch in your
> sequencers playback! Furthermore the AN device takes a finite time to
> respond to patch changes...so don't expect to be able to switch voices
> quickly on the fly (this applies to both the AN1x keyboard and the
PLG150AN
> card)
>
> My advice would be set up any AN patches at the start of the song (i.e.
> leave a couple of black bars for synth setup prior to the music starting
to
> play). The same is true of general XG synth setup.
>
> If you really want to change AN voices mid song, then you should download
> all required patches to the synth user memory bank at the start of the
song.
> Thereafter you should just use simple program change messages to change
> patch (but again don't expect voice change to be instantaneous....the
> machine has to reconfigure alot of internal DSP parameters on patch
change.
> I have seen user who setup patch changes in Cubase parts and then wonder
why
> the first few notes of the part don't play...the reason is the synth is
> still configuring. So send all patch changes at least half a second before
> you want a note to sound. In the Cubase example this would mean advancing
> the part start time so there is a gap between when the patch is sent and
the
> first note of the part plays.).
>
> Normally I work by constructing a library of my favourite patches within
> An1xEdit. Thereafter I download the whole library to the synth at the
start
> of the day.
>
> Also if you want to provide alot of voice tweaking during a song you
should
> avoid excessive use of sysex (i.e. avoid recording lots of AN1xEdit knob
> movements into your song using Hubis or OMS IAC). Lots of sysex is
> guaranteed to destabilise sequencer playback.
>
> Instead setup the Matrix function of each voice to your preference and use
> standard controllers (they are much faster to transmit and also much
easier

> to edit with standard sequencer controller edit curves and other sequencer
> features).
>
> Regards
>
> Gary
> Email:
>      gary@...
>      http://www.yme.co.uk/yme
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lars.l.arnwald@... [mailto:lars.l.arnwald@...]
> Sent: 07 October 2000 16:56
> To: AN1x-list@egroups.com
> Subject: [AN1x-list] Bulk dumps from PLG150-AN
>
>
> Hello!
>
> It seems my problem is similar but not identical to what has been
> discussed in the Bulk dump thread for the last couple of days.
>
> I'm using my PLG card sitting in a MU100R, the AN1xEdit, and the
> Yamaha CBX driver through the To Host port on the MU. First I tried
> to download the Killerloop patch from the PLGPreset1.anp file.
> Nothing seems to happen, at least not on the MU display. Since I'm
> mostly interested in the SysEx view of the communication between the
> components I recently added the MIDIOX to the chain. It's really a
> great tool. I'm running my PC on Windows NT4 and I can get no
> sequencer to function properly on that OS, so Thank God (or rather
> Jamie and Jerry) for the MIDIOX!
>
> Unfortunately the Request function in the AN1x mode is disabled in
> the PLG mode with the AN1xEdit. Instead I performed the Dump 16 parts
> command with the MU into the MIDIOX. I get such a multitude of bytes,
> so I can't distinguish which is the part 1 I have assigned the PLG
> to. Maybe the Dump 16 parts doesn't include the settings on Plug In
> cards at all.
>
> One of the reasons I've done this work is, that I think the patches
> with PLGPreset files are not same as those sitting in the PLG card.
> Comparing the Killerloop patch loaded into the AN1xEdit with the info
> from the PLG manual regarding the Killer patch on the card doesn't
> produce the same result. This also goes for some other patch
> comparisons with identical names. I'm really interested to get the
> PLG patches into the AN1xEdit, so how am going to do?
>
> Regards,
> Lars
>
>
>
> Community email addresses:
>   Post message: AN1x-list@onelist.com
>   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@onelist.com
>   Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>   List owner:   AN1x-list-owner@onelist.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>   http://www.onelist.com/community/AN1x-list
>
>
>
>
> Community email addresses:
>   Post message: AN1x-list@onelist.com
>   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@onelist.com
>   Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>   List owner:   AN1x-list-owner@onelist.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>   http://www.onelist.com/community/AN1x-list
>