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Re: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080

Re: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-16 by PinheadX

From: <tomfinegan@...>

> > There you may read this:
> >
> > **"The AN1x is the first synthesizer in a long time that grabbed
> me, shook
> > me, and screamed "Play me!""
> > **"summary: Don't hesitate, BUY!"
> >
> > PinheadX.
>
> Touché, Pin! ;)

Thanx...that was a thread killer!...(lol)
This review was one of the reasons that made me buy this synth...along, of
course, the tips Jon gave me about how it sounds..:-)

PinheadX.

Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-16 by tomfinegan@yahoo.com

--- In AN1x-list@egroups.com, "PinheadX" <pinheadx@t...> wrote:
> Thanx...that was a thread killer!...(lol)
Yup..lol...
> This review was one of the reasons that made me buy this
synth...along, of
Hm, to be honest...i read this review three times before i make the
decision to buy this blue thingy...hehe...i did never regret! Ok,
other parents have beautifull daughters, but i think AN1x can still
compete, because of its unique sound.

Re: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-16 by PinheadX

From: <tomfinegan@...>

> > Thanx...that was a thread killer!...(lol)
> Yup..lol...
> > This review was one of the reasons that made me buy this
> synth...along, of
> Hm, to be honest...i read this review three times before i make the
> decision to buy this blue thingy...hehe...i did never regret! Ok,
> other parents have beautifull daughters, but i think AN1x can still
> compete, because of its unique sound.


It sounds just like I want. Fits very well in my style of music, I mean, it
can be punchy, dark, dense and aggressive. I droped the chance I had to buy
a Z1 to get this baby...and I can't regret too...in fact I'm loving it!!
BTW, I still have the review's copy (on paper and close to my bed..:-)

PinheadX.

Re: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-16 by Peter Korsten

From: <tomfinegan@...>

> To compare a CS2x and a AN1x is like comparing apples and oranges.
> The CS2x is a sampleplayer (AWM2-synthesis). The AN1x uses (virtual)
> substractive synthesis.

Well, substractive synthesis is what AMW2 is all about...

But are you sure the CS2x has the AWM2 engine? I thought it was all XG, plus
one nice voice.

- Peter

Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-16 by tomfinegan@yahoo.com

--- In AN1x-list@egroups.com, "PinheadX" <pinheadx@t...> wrote:
> From: <tomfinegan@y...>
>
> > > Thanx...that was a thread killer!...(lol)
> > Yup..lol...
> > > This review was one of the reasons that made me buy this
> > synth...along, of
> BTW, I still have the review's copy (on paper and close to my
> bed..:-)
Hmmm...i hope you are not spanking...
...the keyboard...like some other ppl here...<G>...

I am joking...;))

Tom

Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-16 by Pinhead

--- In AN1x-list@egroups.com, "Peter Korsten" <peterk@i...> wrote:
> > To compare a CS2x and a AN1x is like comparing apples and oranges.
> > The CS2x is a sampleplayer (AWM2-synthesis). The AN1x uses
(virtual)
> > substractive synthesis.
>
> Well, substractive synthesis is what AMW2 is all about...
>
> But are you sure the CS2x has the AWM2 engine? I thought it was all
XG, plus
> one nice voice.

Strange...but I'm not receiving some messages!?!?

BTW, the CS2x have a lot of very cool voices and have the AMW2
engine, but unfortunately you can use only one performance (up to 4
layered waves) at a time. On the other hand you don't *have* to use
only XG voices to fill your "multitimbral set"...you can use
any "material wave" to make your tunes (a lot of people actualy think
that you can only use 1 performance and 12 XG)

PinheadX.

Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-16 by tomfinegan@yahoo.com

--- In AN1x-list@egroups.com, "Peter Korsten" <peterk@i...> wrote:
> From: <tomfinegan@y...>
>
> > To compare a CS2x and a AN1x is like comparing apples and oranges.
> > The CS2x is a sampleplayer (AWM2-synthesis). The AN1x uses
(virtual)
> > substractive synthesis.
>
> Well, substractive synthesis is what AMW2 is all about...
>
> But are you sure the CS2x has the AWM2 engine? I thought it was all
XG, plus
> one nice voice.
Hm...AFAIK is XG not an engine it´s a MIDI-file format, like GM or GS
is. Yes the CS2x has AWM2 engine, like CS1x, MUxxx, DB50XG, SW1000,
S80, EX5(partly) and so forth. It uses samples as basic material. I
don´t know how exactly it works, but IIUR does the engine takes at
minimum one sample part, at most four sample parts and mixes them
together, using ADSR, LFOs, FX and other XG-extratricks to produce a
sound. When you have used XGedit by Gary, you know what i mean.

I don´t know if you can set AWM2 and substractive synthesis equal.
But i know that AWM2 needs samples. Oh and Yamaha uses compressed
samples. So if e.g. the DB50xg has 4MB Sample-Rom it is in reality
8MB and so on. Correct me, if i am wrong.

Tom

Re: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-17 by Peter Korsten

From: <tomfinegan@...>


> --- In AN1x-list@egroups.com, "Peter Korsten" <peterk@i...> wrote:
>
> > Well, substractive synthesis is what AMW2 is all about...
> >
> > But are you sure the CS2x has the AWM2 engine? I thought it was all
> > XG, plus
> > one nice voice.
> Hm...AFAIK is XG not an engine it´s a MIDI-file format, like GM or GS
> is. Yes the CS2x has AWM2 engine, like CS1x, MUxxx, DB50XG, SW1000,
> S80, EX5(partly) and so forth. It uses samples as basic material. I
> don´t know how exactly it works, but IIUR does the engine takes at
> minimum one sample part, at most four sample parts and mixes them
> together, using ADSR, LFOs, FX and other XG-extratricks to produce a
> sound. When you have used XGedit by Gary, you know what i mean.

There's no way you can compare the DB50XG, or any of the MU series, to the
EX5 (or S80 and CS6x, as far as I'm aware).

The thing with these XG tone generators is that they aren't programmable.
You have voices, and you can play a bit with filter cut-off and resonance,
plus the amplitude EG, but that's it. Voice #1 will always be a piano.

The AN1x is far superior to XG tone generators, and the envelopes and
filters in my EX5 kick the AN1x's butt major big time. The big difference is
the dual oscillators, which give the AN1x its distinctive analogue
characteristics.

> I don´t know if you can set AWM2 and substractive synthesis equal.
> But i know that AWM2 needs samples. Oh and Yamaha uses compressed
> samples. So if e.g. the DB50xg has 4MB Sample-Rom it is in reality
> 8MB and so on. Correct me, if i am wrong.

I'm not sure if this is the case. The Rolands compress their samples for
sure - something I'm not in favour of. I'm positive that the samples in the
EX5 are uncompressed.

Substractive synthesis is taking bits from the signal from the oscillators
away, and you do this with a filter. Since both (virtual) analogue synths
and S&S (sample and synthesis) synths work with oscillators - whether this
is a sample or something generated is irrelevant - they are essentially the
same.

This sheds another light on 'romplers', as many a zealot scoffs at. :)

- Peter

EX5 vs AN1x (was Re: Jp 8000/8080)

2000-08-17 by Phil

From: "Peter Korsten" <peterk@...>

"...and the envelopes and filters in my EX5 kick the AN1x's butt major big time."


Hi Peter,

Just curious...

How do the Filters in the EX5 compare to the AN1x? Are there more types? Or, do you find they sound better??

Cheers,

Phil :-)

RE: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-17 by Gary Gregson

Peter wrote:

>>
There's no way you can compare the DB50XG, or any of the MU series, to the
EX5 (or S80 and CS6x, as far as I'm aware).
<<

Actually they are all based around the same chipsets and all use AWM2. The
major differences are the numbers of chips provided, the samples and the
level/modes of access to the parameters.

>>
The thing with these XG tone generators is that they aren't programmable.
You have voices, and you can play a bit with filter cut-off and resonance,
plus the amplitude EG, but that's it. Voice #1 will always be a piano.
<<

You can do considerably more than that with an XG device. (what about
tuning, LFO settings, EQ, voice layering and of course the effects!) However
in the end they conform to a standard....hence the voice map is fixed.

Its an essential trade off between compatibility and flexibility! In other
words the lower level AWM2 editing parameters are masked from the user and
the sample set is fixed.

>>The AN1x is far superior to XG tone generators

Chalk and cheese....the devices are designed for different jobs. They also
use fundamentally different methods of synthesis. AN1x isn't much use for
playing back multipart MIDI files with high poly. XG isn't much use for
expressive analogue synthesis or bottom up sound design!

>>
I'm not sure if this is the case. The Rolands compress their samples for
sure - something I'm not in favour of. I'm positive that the samples in the
EX5 are uncompressed.
<<

Almost all synths manufacturers compress the samples! Otherwise you would
end up requiring huge ROMs for the voice sets. The EX5 is no exception.

Regards

Gary
Email:
gary@...
http://www.yme.co.uk/yme

Re: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-18 by Peter Korsten

From: "Gary Gregson" <gary@...>

> Peter wrote:
>
> >>
> There's no way you can compare the DB50XG, or any of the MU series, to the
> EX5 (or S80 and CS6x, as far as I'm aware).
> <<
>
> Actually they are all based around the same chipsets and all use AWM2. The
> major differences are the numbers of chips provided, the samples and the
> level/modes of access to the parameters.

I would imagine that the number of chips, especially those responsible for
envelopes, filters and the like make quite a bit of a difference.

> >>
> The thing with these XG tone generators is that they aren't programmable.
> You have voices, and you can play a bit with filter cut-off and resonance,
> plus the amplitude EG, but that's it. Voice #1 will always be a piano.
> <<
>
> You can do considerably more than that with an XG device. (what about
> tuning, LFO settings, EQ, voice layering and of course the effects!)
However
> in the end they conform to a standard....hence the voice map is fixed.

Response of filter to keyboard velocity is something I don't see in my
DB50XG - admitted, not the top end of the XG range. But that's just one of
the things lacking in XG (at least, the XG I know from my DB50XG and what I
saw in XGEdit).

But the idea of a patch, meaning your own sound, is alien to XG. And I think
that differs it from a 'real' synth: one that you can actually program. You
can't program XG, you can only tweak it.

> Its an essential trade off between compatibility and flexibility! In other
> words the lower level AWM2 editing parameters are masked from the user and
> the sample set is fixed.

I know XG can sound pretty good. Still, I don't think it qualifies as a
synthesiser - more as an electronic sound generator.

Another synth which has superior synth qualities to XG is the Korg Triton,
and yet it is GM compatible. XG is a trade-off of features against price.

> >>The AN1x is far superior to XG tone generators
>
> Chalk and cheese....the devices are designed for different jobs. They also
> use fundamentally different methods of synthesis. AN1x isn't much use for
> playing back multipart MIDI files with high poly. XG isn't much use for
> expressive analogue synthesis or bottom up sound design!

The only difference is the oscillator, or oscillators. After that, you get
the filter stage and the amplifier stage. A classic substractive design if
you ask me.

> >>
> I'm not sure if this is the case. The Rolands compress their samples for
> sure - something I'm not in favour of. I'm positive that the samples in
the
> EX5 are uncompressed.
> <<
>
> Almost all synths manufacturers compress the samples! Otherwise you would
> end up requiring huge ROMs for the voice sets. The EX5 is no exception.

I looked it up in the EX5 service manual and the thing has four 32 Mbit wave
ROMs (and four 8 Mbit OS ROMs), which makes for 16 Mb of uncompressed
samples. Since the specs say that it indeed has 16 Mb of wave data and not
32 Mb, it's uncompressed.

I told you I was positive. :)

- Peter

Re: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-18 by Phil

Please excuse me for being new to this... :-)

Could you please explain how 4 x 32Mbit wave ROMS = 16Mb wave samples??? I can't quite grasp the maths here.

Cheers,

Phil



From: "Peter Korsten" <peterk@...>

I looked it up in the EX5 service manual and the thing has four 32 Mbit waveROMs (and four 8 Mbit OS ROMs), which makes for 16 Mb of uncompressed samples. Since the specs say that it indeed has 16 Mb of wave data and not 32 Mb, it's uncompressed.

Re: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-18 by Phil

er, sorry I've got it now...

32Mbit x 4 = 128Mbit / 8 = 16MB

Thanks anyway!!! :-)

Phil

From: Phil <accession@...>
Reply-To: AN1x-list@egroups.com
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:37:06 +1000
To: <AN1x-list@egroups.com>
Subject: Re: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080


Please excuse me for being new to this... :-)

Could you please explain how 4 x 32Mbit wave ROMS = 16Mb wave samples??? I can't quite grasp the maths here.

Cheers,

Phil



From: "Peter Korsten" <peterk@...>

I looked it up in the EX5 service manual and the thing has four 32 Mbit waveROMs (and four 8 Mbit OS ROMs), which makes for 16 Mb of uncompressed samples. Since the specs say that it indeed has 16 Mb of wave data and not 32 Mb, it's uncompressed.


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Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-18 by tomfinegan@yahoo.com

Well i wrote a very long answer, but my IE5 crashed so, here the
shortform:

--- In AN1x-list@egroups.com, "Peter Korsten" <peterk@i...> wrote:
> The AN1x is far superior to XG tone generators,
Now it is you, comparing apples and oranges. The AN1x is a virtual
analoge synthesizer, XG tone generators are sampleromplayer. So how
is AN1x superiour? Or can your AN1x play 16 different drumsets on all
16 MIDI-channels?

> and the envelopes and
> filters in my EX5 kick the AN1x's butt major big time.
Really? How? I wanna hear a prove, before i take it.

> Substractive synthesis is taking bits from the signal from the
oscillators
> away, and you do this with a filter. Since both (virtual) analogue
synths
> and S&S (sample and synthesis) synths work with oscillators -
whether this
> is a sample or something generated is irrelevant - they are
essentially the
> same.

Hm, fascinating. Do you know a site for more info about this topic?

Regards, Tom

Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-18 by tomfinegan@yahoo.com

--- In AN1x-list@egroups.com, "Peter Korsten" <peterk@i...> wrote:
> But the idea of a patch, meaning your own sound, is alien to XG.
Hm, i am not so sure about that. Especially the DB50 has these
(undocumented) 128 QS-Voices in which each voice can have up to four
different (sample-)elements. Right "tweaked" you can get completely
new sounds. Look at http://xgmidi.wtal.de for the shareware software
XG-Gold.
IMO this is already programming.

Re: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-18 by Peter Korsten

tomfinegan@... shared with us:
>
> --- In AN1x-list@egroups.com, "Peter Korsten" <peterk@i...> wrote:
> > The AN1x is far superior to XG tone generators,
> Now it is you, comparing apples and oranges. The AN1x is a virtual
> analoge synthesizer, XG tone generators are sampleromplayer. So how
> is AN1x superiour? Or can your AN1x play 16 different drumsets on all
> 16 MIDI-channels?

Superior as in synthesis engine, as could be deducted from the context.

> > and the envelopes and
> > filters in my EX5 kick the AN1x's butt major big time.
> Really? How? I wanna hear a prove, before i take it.

See my other (pretty long) mail about this issue. Essentially, the
filter of the EX5 is better suited for some analogue sounds than
that of the AN1x. For instance, if you want to make the famous CS80
'Vangelis horn', you need a filter envelope that doesn't start at
0. The EX5 can do this, the AN1x can't.

> > Substractive synthesis is taking bits from the signal from the
> oscillators
> > away, and you do this with a filter. Since both (virtual) analogue
> synths
> > and S&S (sample and synthesis) synths work with oscillators -
> whether this
> > is a sample or something generated is irrelevant - they are
> essentially the
> > same.
>
> Hm, fascinating. Do you know a site for more info about this topic?

Nope, though perhaps a site like www.synthzone.com or www.synthsite.com
has useful links.

- Peter

Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-18 by tomfinegan@yahoo.com

--- In AN1x-list@egroups.com, Peter Korsten <peterk@i...> wrote:
> Superior as in synthesis engine, as could be deducted from the
context.
Hm, i disagree. The synthesis engine in all XG-tone modules is
different towards the AN1x, because the basis on XG-modules are
samples. On the AN1x it´s just a handfull of simple waveforms (sinus,
square etc.).
Or would you compare a Mack truck with a Ferrari and say that the
Ferrari has a superior engine, because the truck can´t run 190Mph?

> > > and the envelopes and
> > > filters in my EX5 kick the AN1x's butt major big time.
> > Really? How? I wanna hear a prove, before i take it.
>
> See my other (pretty long) mail about this issue. Essentially, the
> filter of the EX5 is better suited for some analogue sounds than
> that of the AN1x. For instance, if you want to make the famous CS80
> 'Vangelis horn', you need a filter envelope that doesn't start at
> 0. The EX5 can do this, the AN1x can't.
Interesting, i didn´t know that (and never tried). But the EX5 cost
also twice and more as much as the AN1x...

> Nope, though perhaps a site like www.synthzone.com or
www.synthsite.com
> has useful links.
Oh ok, i´ll try. Thank you.

Tom

Re: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-18 by PinheadX

From: <tomfinegan@...>

> > > > Thanx...that was a thread killer!...(lol)
> > > Yup..lol...
> > > > This review was one of the reasons that made me buy this
> > > synth...along, of
> > BTW, I still have the review's copy (on paper and close to my
> > bed..:-)
> Hmmm...i hope you are not spanking...
> ...the keyboard...like some other ppl here...<G>...
>
> I am joking...;))

Nope...is the keyboard that spanks me...when I get too close to the
sampler...;-)

PinheadX.

Re: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-18 by Peter Korsten

From: <tomfinegan@...>

> --- In AN1x-list@egroups.com, Peter Korsten <peterk@i...> wrote:
> > Superior as in synthesis engine, as could be deducted from the
> context.
> Hm, i disagree. The synthesis engine in all XG-tone modules is
> different towards the AN1x, because the basis on XG-modules are
> samples. On the AN1x it´s just a handfull of simple waveforms (sinus,
> square etc.).
> Or would you compare a Mack truck with a Ferrari and say that the
> Ferrari has a superior engine, because the truck can´t run 190Mph?

But we're comparing the engines, and they both work the same way.

You have an oscillator: something that produces a waveform. This waveform
can be a sine, two sines, something very complicated, a piano, whatever.
Then you have a filter, that cuts away bits from the spectrum. Then you have
an amp. The thing with the filter is substractive synthesis.

Additive synthesis in the Kawai K5000 (alas, also no longer available) works
with 64 (or 128?) oscillators that all have their own envelopes. This is how
the K5000 produces its sound. But it also has a normal filter, so it's more
of a hybrid.

FM synthesis uses four to eight oscillators that are either added, or that
modulate one another. The Yamaha FS1r is the latest example of the sort,
although that one is really mindbogingly complex. And it too has a filter
(although it cuts the polyphony in half), so it's a hybrid as well.

There are more and generally I don't understand a bit of how they work. But
'analogue synthesis' and S&S (sample and synthesis) are essentially the
same, because they are both substractive synthesis. The only difference is
the oscillator, but that's only one part in the process.

> > See my other (pretty long) mail about this issue. Essentially, the
> > filter of the EX5 is better suited for some analogue sounds than
> > that of the AN1x. For instance, if you want to make the famous CS80
> > 'Vangelis horn', you need a filter envelope that doesn't start at
> > 0. The EX5 can do this, the AN1x can't.
> Interesting, i didn´t know that (and never tried). But the EX5 cost
> also twice and more as much as the AN1x...

Well, both are out of production anyway. :)

Initially, the EX5 was about 2.5 times more expensive. It has also a far
better and bigger keyboard, a bigger display, a more convenient ribbon
controller, better and more wheels, more outputs, more MIDI ports, more
inputs for pedals and a breath controller, and it can be expanded to be a
full-blown sampler.

What it can't do, however, is playing preset #10 'Legato' in a chord. That's
why I'm happy to have both.

- Peter

Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-18 by tomfinegan@yahoo.com

--- In AN1x-list@egroups.com, "Peter Korsten" <peterk@i...> wrote:
> But we're comparing the engines, and they both work the same way.
Hm, but then you mean the naked basic engine...then i agree, but you
can´t (or let´s say shouldn´t) strip in a comparison of two
completely different shoes down to their basic functions. For a more
objective view, the whole thing should be looked at.
AN1x is a good specialized synth and XG-tone-modules are good for
what they are made...playing XG/GM/GS MIDI-files and give you a quick
access to hundreds of different sounds. Of course i wouldn´t want to
use a DB50 anymore as my only sound-source, as i used to do a couple
of years ago.


> Additive synthesis in the Kawai K5000 (alas, also no longer
available) works
The Yamaha FS1r is the latest example of the sort,

Speaking of these two. I´ve read some reviews on harmony-central.com
about the K5000 and a lot of ppl said, that the FS1r sounds like a
K5000. Is it because of the intensive use of formants?

> There are more and generally I don't understand a bit of how they
work.
Oh you mean Grain, Transwaves and Wavetable synthesis...

> But
> 'analogue synthesis' and S&S (sample and synthesis) are essentially
the
> same, because they are both substractive synthesis. The only
difference is
> the oscillator, but that's only one part in the process.
Ok, i admit, stripped down to this, the AN1x is superiour towards XG-
Rompler and the EX5 towards the AN1x. But still there is more about a
synth or rompler than just the naked (spanking) engine. <G>

> Well, both are out of production anyway. :)
Really the EX5 also? What´s gonna be next?

> What it can't do, however, is playing preset #10 'Legato' in a
chord. That's
> why I'm happy to have both.

LOL...or with other words..."spanking" good.

Tom

Re: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-19 by Paul H. Richards



> Well, both are out of production anyway. :)
Really the EX5 also? What´s gonna be next?


What's the story on the EX5...are all the EX's out of production also?? I thought that was going to be a new standard in Pro Keyboards??? What's Yamaha's position on this?
 

Re: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-20 by Sayer

> What's the story on the EX5...are all the EX's out of production also?? I
> thought that was going to be a new standard in Pro Keyboards??? What's
> Yamaha's position on this?

They deserted them because they are a support nightmare.

=====
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Studio site: http://members.aol.com/sayersweb/

To keep up on the latest news regarding Sayer's music join the mailing list: http://members.aol.com/sayersweb/studio/html/sayersmusiclist.htm

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Re: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-21 by PinheadX

From: "Sayer" <sayerseely@...>
>
> > What's the story on the EX5...are all the EX's out of production
also?? I
> > thought that was going to be a new standard in Pro Keyboards??? What's
> > Yamaha's position on this?
>
> They deserted them because they are a support nightmare.

??? Really, this is true??? If it's a good reason to stop anything's
production, FIAT would have to quit doing cars here in Brazil!!

PinheadX

Re: [AN1x-list] Re: Jp 8000/8080

2000-08-22 by Peter Korsten

From: <tomfinegan@...>

> --- In AN1x-list@egroups.com, "Peter Korsten" <peterk@i...> wrote:
> > Additive synthesis in the Kawai K5000 (alas, also no longer
> > available) works
> > The Yamaha FS1r is the latest example of the sort,
>
> Speaking of these two. I´ve read some reviews on harmony-central.com
> about the K5000 and a lot of ppl said, that the FS1r sounds like a
> K5000. Is it because of the intensive use of formants?

I really wouldn't know. I think the presets of the K5000 are boring, and I
can't be bothered to learn to program it. I also can't be bothered to learn
to program the FS1r, but it's got some 1500 presets, some of them very nice,
and you can use all the thousands and thousands of DX7 patches available.

> > Well, both are out of production anyway. :)
> Really the EX5 also? What´s gonna be next?

CS2x, SU700. It's rather simple: take a Yamaha product, and about two years
later it's out of production. It's not necesary to have a replacement, as
the AN1x and EX5 show.

- Peter