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Newbie-question. Sorry...

2014-12-20 by Tobias Andreasson

Hello!

From what I've gathered the AN1x does have some FM-capabilities. What does that mean, really? Can it do what a DX7 does, for instance? Of course I don't expect it to sound just like a DX7 if that is the case, but can it do the same kind of synthesis? Would a DX7 be redundant unless one is particularly fond of the character of the DX7?

(And yes, I tried Google, but that didn't help).

I realize this might be a stupid question, but I know next to nothing about FM-synthesis. I'm getting a AN1x any day now, but I'm also curious about FM-programming, as a complement to subtractive (virtual) analog. Maybe get an old DX/TX as well? Any thoughts?

Merry Christmas to you all!

/Toby

Re: Newbie-question. Sorry...

2014-12-20 by skseanking1@...

I have a Dx7 mk1 that I just picked up off craigslist less than a month ago. The big difference is that a dx is just FM and it has 6 operators.
check out the an1x manual on page 59, the algorithm section shows you how the fm works. http://www.deepsonic.ch/deep/manuals/yamaha_an1x_manual.pdf

the an1x is a VA with fm capabilities and you can get very fm like sound of course, and you have a lot of options on whats modulating the fm stuff and you have a filter ect.

the dx7 has no filter and you are doing nothing but fm, the dx7 to me sounds way more sega genesis sounding than the smooth an1x va sound. The dx also has way more room for crazy experiments, since its not like subtractive synths. so it offers a new different way of doing things if you are only used to subtractive. also a computer editor is a must, its hard to keep track of everything thats going on in a patch on the crippled dx7 interface. I kinda almost wish I had a tx7 because of how much room the dx takes up, but i got one that has an E! mod so it has 10x the patch storage.

Its really up to you, and if the dx/tx is the sound you want.

-sean

Re: Newbie-question. Sorry...

2014-12-20 by jim.alciere@...

Don't be sorry. No such thing as a dumb question. The AN1X fequency modulation is more like a singer's vibrato than a DX 7. You can get the pitch (frequency) of a note to go up and down by modulating it with an LFO.

Experiment. For the moment, don't worry about what these terms mean. Just see what they sound like. Put the synth in sync mode. See what happens when FM only applies to the master osc, then the slave osc, then both. If you use LFO 1 as the source of the modulation ( LFO 1 will make the pitch go up and down) you can pick a variety of different wave forms to modulate the pitch, and you can delay the frequency modulation.

Do you like weird noises? Set the speed of LFO 1 all the way to the right, as fast as it will go. Set the amount of the FM as high as it will go. One of these days I will experiment and see what I can get for metallic drum sounds.

One thing I've just started experimenting with: pitch envelope. The AN1x will slide from a major fith down to unison at a set speed. With both scenes layered, and both with different pitch envelopes, maybe some portamento and osc sync, one can get some wild pads. Just about play themselves.

Jimmy

Re: [AN1x] Newbie-question. Sorry...

2014-12-20 by emma

The an1x does analog type fm emulation there are no algo its just frequency modulation by envelope or lfo or another vco

Dx7 uses algo and these are setup as carriers and modulators the dx7 is additive and phase modulation

Where the an1x uses true fm like the analog synths it emulates namely the prophet 5

Sent from Samsung Mobile

-------- Original message --------
From: "Tobias Andreasson tobandreasson@... [AN1x-list]" <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 20/12/2014 16:40 (GMT+00:00)
To: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AN1x] Newbie-question. Sorry...

Hello!

(And yes, I tried Google, but that didn't help).

Merry Christmas to you all!

/Toby

Re: Newbie-question. Sorry...

2014-12-21 by Daniel Boles

This is wrong though! You're describing PITCH modulation at mostly sub-audio frequencies

AN1x can indeed do FM at audio frequencies, not just for weird SFX or LFO things.

However it is only a limited 1 carrier + 1 modulator implementation, not the multi-operator type of the DX7 and successors.

Re: Newbie-question. Sorry...

2014-12-22 by jim.alciere@...

Thank you, Daniel. I stand corrected. I've owned this synth for over a decade and I still don't have a clue what it can do.

If you have time, perhaps you could post some single op fm patches.

Thanks again.

Jim

Re: Newbie-question. Sorry...

2014-12-22 by Daniel Boles

Haha, I will probably be similar when I hit the 10-year mark! There's a lot to learn, and although I don't dislike the UI as some people do, it means certain 'hidden' functions get left by the wayside. So I understand.

The key is to take modulation input not from any LFO or ENV, but rather from the other VCO (I think maybe self modulation by the same VCO is possible too). So, the target VCO acts as the carrier, and the source the modulator - thus equating to a sort of 2-op FM (well, phase modulation probably!). Then the FM Depth is some odd combination of DX7-style pitch ratio and modulation index that I've not completely figured out.

I tend to use my actual FM machines instead, but I did make one or two basses a couple of months ago; maybe I'll remember to upload those another day. :)

re: [AN1x] Newbie-question. Sorry...

2014-12-22 by Jeff

Hello Tobias !

Yes, there is something called "FM" in the AN1x menus, but the FM of the early Yamaha digital synths is much more complex. It involves a sine wave modulating another one, both in the audio frequency range, in what is called an "operator" in these instruments. Each operator can be "wired" (virtually, they're purely software) to the others giving birth to complex and evoluting waveforms. And very often unpredictable...

For a more scientific description see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_modulation_synthesis

To get back to our AN1x its FM would be considered as "2 operator" FM.

Cheers.

J.F.

> Message du 20/12/14 18:12
> De : "Tobias Andreasson tobandreasson@... [AN1x-list]" <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
> A : AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
> Copie à :
> Objet : [AN1x] Newbie-question. Sorry...
>
>

>

Hello!
>

>

From what I've gathered the AN1x does have some FM-capabilities. What does that mean, really? Can it do what a DX7 does, for instance? Of course I don't expect it to sound just like a DX7 if that is the case, but can it do the same kind of synthesis? Would a DX7 be redundant unless one is particularly fond of the character of the DX7?
>

>

(And yes, I tried Google, but that didn't help).
>

>

I realize this might be a stupid question, but I know next to nothing about FM-synthesis. I'm getting a AN1x any day now, but I'm also curious about FM-programming, as a complement to subtractive (virtual) analog. Maybe get an old DX/TX as well? Any thoughts?

>

Merry Christmas to you all!

>

/Toby
>

Re: Newbie-question. Sorry...

2014-12-22 by jim.alciere@...

This will be my last post on this topic--I promise.It looks like I can set osc 1 to just plain fm, or I can use osc sync and then use fm on either the master, the slave, or both. With osc sync I can select the slave pitch, select a source to modulate the slave pitch, determine the depth of modulation, then if I want to, I can add pitch modulation to either the master, the slave or both. Whew.

And considering I can use VCO 2 as the frequency modulator, and it (obviously) goes way into the audible frequency, I get not only the interesting harmonics from Osc Sync, but the side harmonics from FM. Plus I can modulate the depth of the FM using FM source 1--even using an envelope. Probably could use the free eq as well.

I guess I haven't scratched the surface yet. If I come up with anything interesting, I'll post some patches.

Jimmy

Re: [AN1x] Re: Newbie-question. Sorry...

2014-12-23 by Bruno

2014-12-20 18:33 GMT+01:00 skseanking1@... [AN1x-list] <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>:

the dx7 has no filter and you are doing nothing but fm,

I kinda almost wish I had a tx7 because of how much room the dx takes up,

One of the solutions is getting a TG-77 (the rack version of SY-77) - in theory it has "best of both worlds", since it comes with up to four layers of FM sounds, and its operators are not only limited to sine wave, so it's possible to get waves rich in harmonics without sacrificing operators. It also comes with some samples (AWM) - not the pinnacle of realism, according to modern standards, but enough for a transient part of the sound; surprisingly, they can be also used as modulators for the FM parts (it is called "Realtime Convolution"). Last but not least, it has a filter and two FX processors. Moreover, it's SysEx implementation is well documented (in a usual Yamaha way), so it's possible to use BCR2000 to have a kind of "analog" hands-on interface for FM.

While AN1x is able to use FM, it is limited to two operators (oscillators), and it doesn't have dedicated pitch/amplitude envelopes per operator (with looping). Frankly, even though it lacks all the mentioned features, it's still a cool and relevant synth, and it can deliver interesting FM sounds.

Cheers,

Bruno

Re: [AN1x] Re: Newbie-question. Sorry...

2014-12-23 by Jeff

Don Buchla implemented FM on his instruments in the mid-1960s, prior to Yamaha's patent. His 158, 258 and 259 dual oscillator modules had a specific FM control voltage input,[2] and the model 208 (Music Easel) had a modulation oscillator hard-wired to allow FM as well as AM of the primary oscillator.[3] These early applications used analog oscillators, and this capability was also followed by other modular synthesizers and portable synthesizers including Minimoog and ARP Odyssey.

source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_modulation_synthesis

IMHO the FM capabilities of the AN1x are more related to these glorious ancestors than to the DX series, despite the fact that both have been designed and manufactured by Yamaha. The "DX style" FM synthesis was used to match the performances of the early DSPs with a decent polyphony and sound. Sampling was too "memory consuming" (it will appear after with "AWM" and similar instruments), additive synthesis had its hardware limits too (despite Kawaï's K1... K4 series), and virtual analog was still out of reach.

Cheers.

J.F.

> Message du 23/12/14 14:16
> De : "Bruno brunorc@... [AN1x-list]" <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
> A : AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
> Copie à :
> Objet : Re: [AN1x] Re: Newbie-question. Sorry...
>
>

>

2014-12-20 18:33 GMT+01:00 skseanking1@... [AN1x-list] <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>:

the dx7 has no filter and you are doing nothing but fm,

I kinda almost wish I had a tx7 because of how much room the dx takes up,

>

One of the solutions is getting a TG-77 (the rack version of SY-77) - in theory it has "best of both worlds", since it comes with up to four layers of FM sounds, and its operators are not only limited to sine wave, so it's possible to get waves rich in harmonics without sacrificing operators. It also comes with some samples (AWM) - not the pinnacle of realism, according to modern standards, but enough for a transient part of the sound; surprisingly, they can be also used as modulators for the FM parts (it is called "Realtime Convolution"). Last but not least, it has a filter and two FX processors. Moreover, it's SysEx implementation is well documented (in a usual Yamaha way), so it's possible to use BCR2000 to have a kind of "analog" hands-on interface for FM.
>
> While AN1x is able to use FM, it is limited to two operators (oscillators), and it doesn't have dedicated pitch/amplitude envelopes per operator (with looping). Frankly, even though it lacks all the mentioned features, it's still a cool and relevant synth, and it can deliver interesting FM sounds.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bruno
>