The Yamaha AN1x Synthesizer mailing list

Hi Terry,

Apology accepted and frustration acknowledged.....

>>
I'm now gonna call your bluff, because I have exactly the 
same problem when using a Macman serial interface (that plugs into the
modem 
port). My Nord Modular editor poses no problem when used with both USB
and Serial ports- and there is an awful amount of data streaming with
that. So do I still deserve all I get???
<<

No...I would expect the Macman serial device to work.....I am surprised
it doesn't! Which version of MacOS/OMS are you running? 

The problem with the AN1x is that its bulk dumps are very large (by most
synth standards). Doing a full patch dump transmits 128K of data. This
is sent in packets of over 1K with a 5ms gap between each. This stresses
any MIDI interface by driving it at full bandwidth. If there are any
delays in the MIDI path or buffering problems, it is very easy to either
lose packets, bytes or to change the inter packet delay time. The net
result is that the AN1x will not accept the data.

Ideally Yamaha should have used smaller packets (around 256 bytes, which
is what most MIDI interfaces/software seem capable of handling
comfortably) and left a bigger gap between blocks. Unfortunately this
would have also dramatically increased the transmission/receive times
(which I am sure many will testify are long enough already :-)  

>>
I've heard all these complaints before and its been discussed time and
time 
again on many lists, but the bottom line is- I think- is that people
(and you, yourself state this) have no time to work around the problems-
especially on the Macintosh.
<<

I think that's probably true. The Mac used to be very stable for MIDI
with standard serial port devices. However since the introduction of USB
and the confusion over OMS, the changes in the OS architecture etc
things have got worse. Also a major part of the music consumer market
has now moved to Windows. Therefore support for the Mac is not what it
used to be (except in the Pro end of the Market). Maybe MacOS X will
reverse this trend, let's hope so for the sake of Apple and Macphiles
everywhere.

>>
I am told that you are now a LAN engineer- that's great, but when is
someone 
going to  actually produce a Firewire interface for Midi (c/w Audio?)?-
I read about this technology all the time but so far there has been
NOTHING. I'm crying out for one!
<<

Actually I'm now a Software Manager at Yamaha R&D London! (But any views
I express in this forum are purely my own, and in no way should be taken
as Yamaha company policy/views :-)

You are of course absolutely correct! The music manufacturers should
stop messing around with USB and move to Firewire (this is a view I have
even heard voiced by several major OS and chipset manufacturers who have
vested interests in USB!). At best USB should only be used where there
are no step transitions in bandwidth (i.e. going device to device, but
not USB to MIDI to device). Alternatively, the USB MIDI interface has to
be intelligent and both the interface and software need to implement a
time stamping protocol on top of USB (which is the approach taken by
Steinberg/Emagic with their matched sequencer/MIDI interface devices
etc). Even then you have to be careful there are no other devices/hubs
etc interfering with the transmissions! This is not to say USB is a bad
technology, in fact it's clearly a very good technology for low cost
peripheral integration. It's just not ideal for applications where you
have realtime data at high bandwidth and/or tight timing constraints. 

Firewire has a much superior protocol for moving realtime data such as
MIDI, Audio and Video. The only barrier in the past has been the cost of
the chipsets...but thankfully this is now changing. Come Christmas, I
can't see any computer box being produced that doesn't have Firewire
on-board as standard (and that includes the Wintel boxes!). In fact, I
suspect most computer manufacturers will move to a model where all high
speed peripherals are hosted via Firewire etc. Thereafter they will seal
the boxes to prevent the PCI card/driver mayhem that currently prevails
(i.e. move to the iMac model, to reduce support issues). 

Yamaha does have a firewire based music protocol technology available
called mLan. This handles both audio and MIDI together with network
topology and routing! mLan is already available on some of Yamahas high
end products, and is offered as an option on others. There are still
some issues with drivers, but hopefully these will be resolved shortly.
I am sure we will see an increase in the use of firewire and mLan
solutions over the coming year.  

I suppose I should now go test whether An1xEdit works over mLan :-)
 
Regards

Gary Gregson

Email:gary@...
http://www.yme.co.uk/yme 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: terryfunken@... [mailto:terryfunken@...] 
Sent: 07 March 2002 09:52
To: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AN1x] AN1x editor problems


In a message dated 7/3/02 12:21:58 am, gary@... writes:

>Hey Terry,
>
>Thanks for the input there.
>
>An1xEdit is not only free....but I produced the Mac conversion on my
own
>time after many requests, I didn't get paid for it (unlike the original
>Windows version). The program works fine with a MIDI time piece or
other
>serial port MIDI device, which were the main devices (if not only
>devices) available at the time of release. 
>
>The bottom line is that if you are going to use USB to transfer large
>amounts of sysex data at full MIDI bandwidth, you deserve all you get!
>USB simply isn't designed for that purpose and don't let the hardware
>manufactures convince you otherwise (it's a fire and forget protocol
>with a dramatic step change in bandwidth between the USB rate and the
>MIDI rate! Normal channel message will work fine, but large volumes of
>sysex are problematic) 

Dear Gary,

First of all, If I seemed a bit agressive- I'm sorry, but I wasn't
intending 
to be
agressive- just frustrated. 

I'm now gonna call your bluff, because I have exactly the 
same problem when using a Macman serial interface (that plugs into the
modem 
port).
My Nord Modular editor poses no problem when used with both USB and
Serial 
ports- and
there is an awful amount of data streaming with that. So do I still
deserve 
all I get???

I've heard all these complaints before and its been discussed time and
time 
again on many 
lists, but the bottom line is- I think- is that people (and you,
yourself 
state this) have 
no time to work around the problems- especially on the Macintosh.

I am told that you are now a LAN engineer- that's great, but when is
someone 
going to 
actually produce a Firewire interface for Midi (c/w Audio?)?- I read
about 
this technology all the time
but so far there has been NOTHING. I'm crying out for one!

Regards,

Tom