Archive of the former Yahoo!Groups mailing list: The Mellotron Group

 

I'm with you on this one, Chris. 

And I don't understand the keyboard players that will haul around an empty upright piano shell and then insert a digital piano inside of it. I just don't get it. I've played shows with bands that do this. So much work to haul around so much heavy lumber just to build the keyboard facade. For the band, and maybe their fans, it's all about the look - the theatre.

RnR

js 

On Sep 1, 2014, at 2:18 PM, Chris Dale unobtainiumkeys@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup] wrote:

 

I don't think it's odd. I think it's about having standards about what's acceptable and what isn't.

I'm complaining that he's a twat for 'marketing'  and trying to 'sell' something he doesn't have. It's not just a 'box'. It's what that box represents.  

He's trying to fool people that he's using a real Mellotron, that he maybe tracked one down, maybe bought it, maybe repaired it, and is using the sounds in the music - and maybe supporting the good ole' Mellotron companies ---- none of which is true.

So it's somewhere between a laugh and an insult to those of us who did track down Mellotrons, spend tons of money on them, took the time to restore them, and basically give them new lives. A real Mellotron is a sacrifice of time, money, diligence, etc.

We've earned our battle scars and whatever pats on the back might go with that. 

This guy has 'battle scar tattoos' . He's merely another form of poseur. 

He's not supporting Markus or Streetly. If he was, there'd be nothing to complain about because the money he spent on the samples from them is going to a good cause - which is keeping the real machines alive. 

But he hasn't, and he probably won't.  

Why is he doing it? He's doing it for hipster cred; because he thinks it will make him and his band cool.

But they aren't. Because dishonesty is not cool. 

So if this action is 'suspect', then how do you believe in their music? album credits?  studio musicianship? 

Where is their credibility? How do you trust them? How do you believe in them as a band?

Maybe you can't. And if you really can't trust in them, or believe in them, you forget them, and find something you can believe in. 

And if you do like their music, you probably download it for free (because how can you feel bad about not paying someone who is dishonest with you to begin with?) 

And you save your money for albums by bands you can believe in, bands you can be happy and comfortable listening to.

Because you're not just buying music - you're buying into a belief system about the musicians themselves.

The Beatles are the probably the best example of this.

Everyone wants to see the hard worker succeed, and the cheater fail. 

So for me this is a definition of 'tasteless' . It wouldn't be if he was using actual Mellotron sounds.

But he isn't. He's the Mellotron Milli Vanilli, as are the prog bands Mike refers to.

And it's a fatal public relations mistake for those in the know.

I mentioned the word 'professional', but I meant a band that has standards for it's music, image, art etc and wouldn't resort to this stunt.

I wasn't necessarily referring to bands signed to labels - which are basically somewhat corrupt to begin with.

I meant that their day to day operations are consistently professional, honest and reliable - basically trying to do all the right things with good intentions.

No one is perfect, but there are some important shades of grey between black and white. 

As far as the reference to the Musicians Union - the Mellotron never could replace an orchestra, just as a sampler with digital Mellotron sounds - never can replace a Mellotron - certainly not in a recording environment. You can't really argue against the laws of physics. I even can't make my two M400's sound like the Wakeman MK V. 

Why do orchestras still use grand pianos on stage? We don't 'need' them.

Why do guitarists still use guitars? All the sounds are available from a triggered MIDI guitar. 

Because it's not just about the sound. It's about the physical nature of playing something. 

Still, I don't fault anyone for their choice of where they get their Mellotron sounds. If I knew my Mellotron was going to be subjected to severe risks during a live concert, then of course I would choose a Memotron or M4000D. They're reliable, can handle the rigors of a concert and can be replaced easily. An M400?  Not so. Not always. 

Yes, the Musicians Union objected to the Mellotron and Chamberlin because they thought it would put musicians out of work.

Is this comparable here? 

Not really. The Mellotron and Chamberlin actually provided employment for these same musicians to record the tapes.

The Musicians Unions in the USA were even happy to be paid their wages when a Chamberlin was used in a major studio or on stage in an expensive lounge. They didn't even have to show up for work. Those guys were laughing all the way to bank. And I'm sure the London Symphony made a fortune recording the Birotron sounds for 3 or 4 years.

 

So this is different. I object to this because of the dishonesty factor. Because it's about a machine that has bordered on extinction for the last 20 years and has taken the efforts of several people around the world to prevent that from happening.

And it has cost them precious time, money, friendships, business partnerships, their health, a job, a marriage. The stakes have been higher. People are oblivious and insensitive to that. 

If this guy knew all that, maybe he wouldn't ponce around with his cabinet. 

Most people here who have a Mellotron also have a story of untold sacrifice, and effort, and they deserve recognition for those efforts. They deserve the recognition for making a small but quality difference. 

Not some hipster/poseur who has done nothing and achieved nothing related to it.

At the end of the day, I don't really care that this guy is doing what he's doing. He's just another schmuck trying to make a dollar using the PT Barnum method. It doesn't cause me any direct harm. 

I'm uh..."happy with what I have to be happy with"  

But I'm also happy not be his customer.  I won't be buying this bands CD's or seeing their concerts.

I like the music, but in light of everything I know about Mellotrons, I don't believe in what the keyboard player stands for. It doesn't feel right. I can't respect him. So I don't invest in it.

I'd rather give my money for a CD or album by one of you guys. I don't have to question that your efforts are genuine, well intentioned and authentic.

 

 

On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 3:12 AM, Mike Dickson mike.dickson@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Ah right - I confess I never listened to all of it - just as much as I could stand.  :-)

I still think your point is odd.  You complain that he isn't using any Mellotron sounds when he clearly isn't using a Mellotron.  In fact, what you are essentially complaining about is the shape of the instrument he is using! (Or rather the box it is contained within)

Calling it 'tasteless' is taking it a tad far as well.  As for pro musicians not doing this, I beg to differ.  Two or three Bloody Awful Prog Bands (BAPB) from the 1980s did exactly the same thing and had a Bloody Awful Sampler (BAS) within.  I know - I saw one set up in a second hand music shop round these parts. And these were real bands with real labels. 

As for this: "He's trying to capitalize on and exploit part of someone else's life work.  It's unethical. " Erm...wasn't this in essence the terms under which the Musicians Union objected to the Mellotron in the first place? 

On 1 September 2014 07:11, Chris Dale unobtainiumkeys@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

If you're referring to my earlier point - it's because he's not using any Mellotron sounds at all.

He's using generic string sounds, and pretending that they originate and emanate from a Mellotron.

It's a custom made cabinet.

He has no apparent interest in the actual Mellotron 'sound', he's just interested in the 'image' associated with having one.

And this makes him dishonest (if not an a∗∗hole) in my book.  

Because he's trying to associate himself with something he has no association with. He's trying to capitalize on and exploit part of someone else's life work.  It's unethical.  

You could argue he's promoting the image of the Mellotron, but after 50 years, it doesn't need his promotion - and certainly not to that demographic.

He's not supporting Streetly or Mellotron by buying their sounds in digital form. We're not hearing any Mellotron sounds.

If he at least had actual Mellotron sounds there, then his use of the fake Mellotron cabinet would be totally understandable.

And the sounds offered now are the best they've ever been and are affordable to just about everyone.

So what's the problem? Why not buy and use the digital sounds released by Streetly or Markus?

Why not support the companies that struggled to bring back the machine and now have made the sounds available to everyone?

This is just a tasteless PR stunt. This is the kind of thing you would expect to see from some immature high school band, not a professional group of musicians.  And certainly not musicians capable of the quality of music you're hearing.

I'm calling a spade a spade. Nothing weird about it. 

On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 5:56 PM, Mike Dickson mike.dickson@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

That's a really weird and (frankly) weird attitude to take.  There are only a finite number of Mellotrons around, and people want to use that sound.  How else to get it?  

To berate people for wanting the sound they love by whatever means is open to them is fine by me.  I am sure you can be a purist if you like, but it's a strange kind of existence to make for yourself.  Yes, I know and you know that the real thing sound better than a sampler, but in the absence of one, why not use the other?  

If people want to put samplers inside fake Mellotron cases then I really couldn't care less.  You are seemingly being concerned with the medium and not the message.  The instrument is just a means by which the sound - which is ultimately all that this (or any other instrument) is - can be communicated, and most people who hear it and love it couldn't care.  

Do you feel you are being left behind?

On 30 August 2014 11:50, Chris Dale unobtainiumkeys@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

So just think - if true:

All the hard work these last 20 years - all the years of cleaning and preserving of tapes, recording them, archiving them, saving the sounds to computers, changing pinch rollers, pressure pads, cleaning capstans, adjusting tape head azimuth, re-doing the cycling mechanisms, track selectors, re-wiring power supplies, installing motors, re-building old machines, re-doing the cabinets....making new parts......and the money, and energy,  and time spent to do it.....to first save and then re-introduce the instrument  

it's all being shit upon by someone with a sampler and a case to fool people with. 

Some guy who wants to bask in the glow of others accomplishments, others music history, and years of toil and countless hard work by other people he never supported or contributed to. 

At least other people who have done something similar have bought real Mellotrons or digital products from Streetly or Mellotron. and are supporting them. They keep it going.

I hope you're wrong Frank. 

Well.....I guess walking around with Pabst Blue Ribbon bottles and secretly having cheap Chinese beer inside will be next. :)

 

 

On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 4:00 AM, lsf5275@aol.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I don't think it is a real Mellotron. I think it is a cabinet with a sampler in it. It's too tall for a Mark VI or an M400 and not deep enough front to back to be an M4000. There is no continuous hinge on the lid so it wasn't made by Markus or Streetly and the cut-outs in to lower back panel aren't right. I think it's a fake.

Frank (Real M400, Real M4000, Real Mark II)

 

 

In a message dated 8/30/2014 2:46:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com writes:

 

I thought that as well.

None of this sounds 'live' to me at all except for the lead singing and the drums.

The background vocals are especially fake.

Those aren't Mellotron strings. The Mellotron is inaudible. The players hands don't match what he's playing.

Looks like it was used as a prop.

This is a double edged sword for me. It's always nice to see a Mellotron on a mainstream show, but this also somehow always comes across like someone taking some great painting and using it as a coffee table with a person putting his coffee mug down on it and saying 'look how cool (but in reality - uncool) I am'.

I'm sure that's not the intended effect.  

But it's like the hipster version of the cliche black grand piano you see in someone's grand spacious home. It sits there, looks nice, is regularly polished - and never gets played. The impression it makes is a non-impression. 

The music itself is okay. I liked it. The melodies and arrangements are interesting. The songs are good.

But this performance itself seems more about catering to the hipster crowd - probably not the bands doing if they're on a show like Jimmy Kimmel. (And the crowd noise is also fake - at the beginning of Runaway - you hear more people cheering then are actually there)  

I'd like to see ∗genuine∗ live performances from them and listen to more of their songs to decide whether I truly like them or not. 

The music is impressive, this 'live' performance isn't. 

In a music video - okay, never a problem.  

But don't present something as 'live' and lie about it.  We now have the technology (mics, amps, etc.) to put on the best live shows.

Never before in the history of the world has that been possible.

There's no excuse in this day and age for this. 

Yes, you can argue TV's been doing this for years. But that's beside the point. 

It's never acceptable or worthwhile - regardless of who is doing it.

Bullshit is bullshit.     

On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 10:05 PM, markpringnz <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I meant doesn't sound live.

--

Mike Dickson

Edinburgh

--

Mike Dickson

Edinburgh