Digital BW, The Print

Some worthy new papers have come along in the last year or so, and since some of them may be alternatives or additions to the Hahnemuhle papers I have been using I've been slowly testing some of them. Before any comments, here are some initial basic numbers of interest, made with my Piezotone Warm setup. Two standard H papers start for comparisons-

H PhotoRag 308-
White LAB= 97.85 0.43 0.08
50% AB= 1.17 4.82
Dmax= 1.725

H German Etching-
White LAB= 97.67 0.38 0.88
50% AB= 1.22 5.11
Dmax= 1.747

Canson Rag Photographique 310-
White LAB= 98.93 0.03 1.16
50% AB= 1.34 5.78
Dmax= 1.741

Epson ColdPress Natural-
White LAB= 97.73 0.34 2.82
50% AB= 0.70 3.45
Dmax= 1.667

Epson HotPress Natural-
White LAB= 97.71 0.29 2.84
50% AB= 0.62 3.11
Dmax= 1.678

Epson ColdPress Bright-
White LAB= 97.87 1.45 -1.57
50% AB= 1.07 1.96
Dmax= 1.664

Epson HotPress Bright-
White LAB= 98.10 1.45 -1.94
50% AB= 1.05 1.78
Dmax= 1.678

First a comment on Dmax. I've suspected for some time there is a coating technology evolving that favors low total ink. The Epson papers yielded low overall dmax with my setup, which uses more than one ink in the deepest tones. H papers do fine with this, and simply begin to bleed requiring the proper limit point. Premier Art papers rarely bleed, but shoulder over to a lower dmax, requiring again, the proper limit point to gain full dmax. The Epson papers did the same.

Alternatively, the reverse tends to be true with a single K ink, at low total ink percentages (100%-). Those same papers may then not shoulder over, and even sometimes exceed the H and Canson papers in dmax with a similar single K ink setup. The Epson Driver would be an example of something limiting TI to 100% at the max density end point of a setup. Quick tests of these papers and an Ultrachrome MK setup gave opposite dmax results, the Epson papers gave slightly higher dmax than the Canson papers. Due to the similarity between the Epson curves, old Premier Art, and recent Alise curves, I have strong suspicions about the source of the new Epson papers. Add to that the Epson/Premier connections of the past. With all of the above numbers, each was limited to the highest point with no bleed or shouldering, depending.
Of greater interest to me are the AB numbers at 50%. Clearly these new papers with the odd shoulder behavior respond much cooler to a monochromatic, primarily carbon, inkset. I noticed this with Premier Art papers, John Dean has commented on the same in his tests and setups and coincidentally just sent a note about how cold his Alise tests look just today. This tendency is another behavior consistant with the new Epson papers.
For those looking for more hue variation through paper choice this would be of interest. But the Canson, for me, yields the warm richness I was getting with the H papers. Though I didn't put the results up, Canson's Edition Etching performs very much the same as German Etching and looks similar, with a more robust coating, very nice. The Rag Photographique seems to be the most viable option to HPR if similar image presentation is the criteria, and also more robust. Of course the Canson prices are "premium".
The 2 bright Epson versions are of much less interest to me because of the obvious OBA content, but the hue difference is even greater, barely warm at all.
For color, quick test profiles showed higher gamut volume with the Canson papers, but shape viewing show this is mostly in the middle L value colors, with the Epson papers giving larger gamut in the very dark colors and dmax.
The surfaces of the new Epsons are as described, the hot press like our other smooth fine art papers, the cold press similar to German Etching, or Somerset Enhanced. Canson Rag Photographique is also like the other smooth papers, Edition Etching a hair more toothy and warm.
This was not meant to be an in depth paper test, but some initial comparisons of paper issues important to me for critical B&W printing. The Epson, Canson, and Alise papers all seem to have more robust coatings than the older H papers, except for Canson Arches Aquarelle, which isn't included above anyway.
Sorry for the rambling jumbled presentation, hope it's of help to others.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

This is really interesting Tyler.

How are you measuring the paper base? I get 97.71 1.46 -0.36 when I measure
Canson Rag Photographique with my ColorVision Spectro Colorimiter. That's
using two blank sheets and than a black surface, under the page I'm
measuring.

Terry.

On 20/03/10 6:54 PM, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:

> Canson Rag Photographique 310-
> White LAB= 98.93 0.03 1.16
> 50% AB= 1.34 5.78
> Dmax= 1.741

"tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:

Definitely some things to explore there.  Thanks.


> Some worthy new papers have come along in the last year or so...


> 
> Epson HotPress Natural-
> White LAB= 97.71 0.29 2.84
> 50% AB= 0.62 3.11
> Dmax= 1.678

The delta-b of this paper is the lowest I've ever seen.  I'll have to get some and see if it holds true with dilute Eboni.

> ...
> Epson HotPress Bright-
> White LAB= 98.10 1.45 -1.94
> 50% AB= 1.05 1.78
> Dmax= 1.678

It does look a bit like the PA Smooth BW.  Note the high paper Lab A.  I happen to like that.  It gives the print a bit of a selenium look.

 
> ... I have strong suspicions about the source of the new Epson papers. Add to that the Epson/Premier connections of the past. ...

I'd have to agree. 

> For those looking for more hue variation through paper choice this would be of interest. ...

Definitely.

As an aside, I'm so impressed with Mark's AaI HP Z3100 PK tests that I'm getting fairly comfortable with the idea of using some of that ink in more printing.  So, the initial 7800 setup for 2010 looks like an Eboni carbon core (K, Lk [18%] & LLK [6%] densities), MIS warm carbon M channel (LLK and LK) and HP cool C channel  (30% PK and PK -- which will also be the PK for the warm glossy printing and also help cover the 18% Eboni to Eboni transition if needed).  I'll blend my own dilute HP, probably with some (50%) glop added to the C6c base to eliminate the bronzing.   

The Y position is a bit of a wild card and will depend on where it's needed most.  Initially it'll be part of the Eboni core -- with the EZ density (13.5% Eboni).  This is what worked best in the old 2400 Y = Carbon modification.  I can't say I understand why the EZ in the 2400 Y position was smoother than lighter inks, but it did appear to be.  Helping in the midtone and hiding crossovers is more important that a lighter-than-LLK in my view.

So, I'm pursuing both the paper variations and greater ink tone variations -- sort of back to the variable tone approach, but with a rather more dominant position for a relatively neutral carbon core for my primary matte paper printing.  Also, as usual, while I expect to use QTR for most printing, it ought to be Epson driver compatible for those apps that require that.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Terry, were I to want more critical accurate representation of each paper I would have done this differently. For now I was only interested in comparative information, so I can eliminate further investigation of papers that this test revealed as less interesting. That's why the two commonly used papers, HPR and GE, are included.
So an intern did these measurements quickly, with no multiples averaging, on a light wood table with one layer of budget white gloss inkjet paper over that. An EyeOne non-UV Pro was used. I'd love to devote a week to sorting some of this out, but as it is I get to it in fits and starts, and I have to narrow the activity to the papers of interest here, but I'll share what I discover.
Sample packs of both the Epson Signature Series and the Cansons are available. If any of this sparks interest so far, I'd suggest getting some. Right now Alise seems to be back ordered everywhere.
The evolving coating technology is of interest to me. Not only with regard to the subjective beauty of the resulting prints, the dmax and ink receptive qualities such as dot sharpness and total ink capability, and linearizing preformance, but in terms of longevity. Mark McCormick-Goodhart once told me that the fact that different coatings create different hues with mono ink should be a major clue that something delicate, and potentially problematic, is happening chemically at that bond. Of course physical delicacy is the other major issue, I've had far too many rejects this last year, so tough new coatings are a priority for me.
Anyway, for a more strict representation of the paper, I'd trust your measurement for the Canson, mine are to compare with the others done at the same time.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Terry Ritz <t.ritz@...> wrote:

>
> This is really interesting Tyler.
> 
> How are you measuring the paper base? I get 97.71 1.46 -0.36 when I measure
> Canson Rag Photographique with my ColorVision Spectro Colorimiter. That's
> using two blank sheets and than a black surface, under the page I'm
> measuring.
> 
> Terry.
> 
> 
> On 20/03/10 6:54 PM, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
> 
> > Canson Rag Photographique 310-
> > White LAB= 98.93 0.03 1.16
> > 50% AB= 1.34 5.78
> > Dmax= 1.741
>

Thanks Tyler. I've been wondering lately if my measurement approach and/or
spectro are off, hence my question.

I have started working with Cone K7 Selenium lately, in combination with a
few papers, and I've noticed some interesting things. Cone Type 5 (gloss)
renders quite a warm toned print. Harman FB AL cools the image some, but
there is still an underlying warmth to it. Canson BFK Rives and Rag
Photographique conversely, produce a beautiful "charcoal" look, at least to
my eye. I find it interesting that the Harman, which has a cool base,
renders a warmer image than BFK Rives or Rag Photographique, both of which
are warmer papers. Perhaps the coating, as you've suggested, is the
differentiator.

Terry.

On 21/03/10 12:41 PM, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:

> 
> 
> Terry, were I to want more critical accurate representation of each paper I
> would have done this differently. For now I was only interested in comparative
> information, so I can eliminate further investigation of papers that this test
> revealed as less interesting. That's why the two commonly used papers, HPR and
> GE, are included.
> So an intern did these measurements quickly, with no multiples averaging, on a
> light wood table with one layer of budget white gloss inkjet paper over that.
> An EyeOne non-UV Pro was used. I'd love to devote a week to sorting some of
> this out, but as it is I get to it in fits and starts, and I have to narrow
> the activity to the papers of interest here, but I'll share what I discover.
> Sample packs of both the Epson Signature Series and the Cansons are available.
> If any of this sparks interest so far, I'd suggest getting some. Right now
> Alise seems to be back ordered everywhere.
> The evolving coating technology is of interest to me. Not only with regard to
> the subjective beauty of the resulting prints, the dmax and ink receptive
> qualities such as dot sharpness and total ink capability, and linearizing
> preformance, but in terms of longevity. Mark McCormick-Goodhart once told me
> that the fact that different coatings create different hues with mono ink
> should be a major clue that something delicate, and potentially problematic,
> is happening chemically at that bond. Of course physical delicacy is the other
> major issue, I've had far too many rejects this last year, so tough new
> coatings are a priority for me.
> Anyway, for a more strict representation of the paper, I'd trust your
> measurement for the Canson, mine are to compare with the others done at the
> same time.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Terry Ritz <t.ritz@...>
> wrote:
>> 
>> This is really interesting Tyler.
>> 
>> How are you measuring the paper base? I get 97.71 1.46 -0.36 when I measure
>> Canson Rag Photographique with my ColorVision Spectro Colorimiter. That's
>> using two blank sheets and than a black surface, under the page I'm
>> measuring.
>> 
>> Terry.
>> 
>> 
>> On 20/03/10 6:54 PM, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
>> 
>>> Canson Rag Photographique 310-
>>> White LAB= 98.93 0.03 1.16
>>> 50% AB= 1.34 5.78
>>> Dmax= 1.741

Terry Ritz schreef:
> This is really interesting Tyler.
> 
> How are you measuring the paper base? I get 97.71 1.46 -0.36 when I measure
> Canson Rag Photographique with my ColorVision Spectro Colorimiter. That's
> using two blank sheets and than a black surface, under the page I'm
> measuring.
> 
> Terry.
> 
> 
> On 20/03/10 6:54 PM, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
> 
>> Canson Rag Photographique 310-
>> White LAB= 98.93 0.03 1.16
>> 50% AB= 1.34 5.78
>> Dmax= 1.741

To add to the confusion I measure

Lab 97.8 0.2 1.6
with a new Eye 1 Basic normal and three sheets CRP on museum matt board.

Lab 97.8 0.1 1.8
with two sheets and black underneath.Eye 1
Lab 96.28 0.6 1.86
With a Spectrocam, that is old and usually lower on reflectance and 
higher on a b.

I think Tyler's measurement is alright.



-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Terry, I found the Selenium MPS set plus GO produced a very different hue on the photo surfaces than matte. I'm not sure of other inksets in that regard. On matte, it's the familiar subtle neutral purpley look many of us have seen over the years. On the photo surfaces, it goes much warmer as you have observed, more to a rosey hue. In fact, as you note with the Harman, I found myself gravitating to the OBA papers for that ink as it knocked back that red a bit. Others on this list that got my samples may recall that.
I also have prints made by Jon for me of the new Warm K7 set, also glossy compatable with GO, and again the photo surface papers are much warmer than the matte prints.
It seems consistent across the board, the inkjet photo surfaces give different (warmer) prints than matte coatings with the identical Cone inks. It would be interesting to hear from others here about other mono matte/gloss inks.
Without having them right in front of me, I think the examples of both gloss and matte on various papers with the HP that John Dean sent me, they seem more consistant across different coatings.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Terry Ritz <t.ritz@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks Tyler. I've been wondering lately if my measurement approach and/or
> spectro are off, hence my question.
> 
> I have started working with Cone K7 Selenium lately, in combination with a
> few papers, and I've noticed some interesting things. Cone Type 5 (gloss)
> renders quite a warm toned print. Harman FB AL cools the image some, but
> there is still an underlying warmth to it. Canson BFK Rives and Rag
> Photographique conversely, produce a beautiful "charcoal" look, at least to
> my eye. I find it interesting that the Harman, which has a cool base,
> renders a warmer image than BFK Rives or Rag Photographique, both of which
> are warmer papers. Perhaps the coating, as you've suggested, is the
> differentiator.
> 
> Terry.
> 
> 
> On 21/03/10 12:41 PM, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Terry, were I to want more critical accurate representation of each paper I
> > would have done this differently. For now I was only interested in comparative
> > information, so I can eliminate further investigation of papers that this test
> > revealed as less interesting. That's why the two commonly used papers, HPR and
> > GE, are included.
> > So an intern did these measurements quickly, with no multiples averaging, on a
> > light wood table with one layer of budget white gloss inkjet paper over that.
> > An EyeOne non-UV Pro was used. I'd love to devote a week to sorting some of
> > this out, but as it is I get to it in fits and starts, and I have to narrow
> > the activity to the papers of interest here, but I'll share what I discover.
> > Sample packs of both the Epson Signature Series and the Cansons are available.
> > If any of this sparks interest so far, I'd suggest getting some. Right now
> > Alise seems to be back ordered everywhere.
> > The evolving coating technology is of interest to me. Not only with regard to
> > the subjective beauty of the resulting prints, the dmax and ink receptive
> > qualities such as dot sharpness and total ink capability, and linearizing
> > preformance, but in terms of longevity. Mark McCormick-Goodhart once told me
> > that the fact that different coatings create different hues with mono ink
> > should be a major clue that something delicate, and potentially problematic,
> > is happening chemically at that bond. Of course physical delicacy is the other
> > major issue, I've had far too many rejects this last year, so tough new
> > coatings are a priority for me.
> > Anyway, for a more strict representation of the paper, I'd trust your
> > measurement for the Canson, mine are to compare with the others done at the
> > same time.
> > Tyler
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Terry Ritz <t.ritz@>
> > wrote:
> >> 
> >> This is really interesting Tyler.
> >> 
> >> How are you measuring the paper base? I get 97.71 1.46 -0.36 when I measure
> >> Canson Rag Photographique with my ColorVision Spectro Colorimiter. That's
> >> using two blank sheets and than a black surface, under the page I'm
> >> measuring.
> >> 
> >> Terry.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On 20/03/10 6:54 PM, "tboleyyh" <tyler@> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Canson Rag Photographique 310-
> >>> White LAB= 98.93 0.03 1.16
> >>> 50% AB= 1.34 5.78
> >>> Dmax= 1.741
>

>... the fact that different coatings create different hues with mono ink should be a major clue that something delicate, and potentially problematic, is happening chemically at that bond. ...

I'm not sure whether there is a chemical bond involved.  

Another hypothesis is that the way in which pigments are absorbed or spread could affect the hues we see.  For example, with respect to the blended carbon + color inks, which include the Piezo inks (aside from the carbon sepia), the different pigment types could be absorbed differently on the coating.  Early on the way we could tell that an ink was not 100% carbon was to put a drop onto a piece of paper and the colors would spread and show -- a form of "paper chromatography."  With the 100% carbon pigments the warmth seems to be an edge affect mostly.  Where a paper spreads the ink more, causing more of the edge to be semi-transparent, there might be more warmth.  Where the droplet is tightly held and does not spread or bleed, there might be less warmth.  This might affect the mostly carbon blended Piezo inks as well.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

tboleyyh wrote:
> Terry, I found the Selenium MPS set plus GO produced a very different hue on the photo surfaces than matte. I'm not sure of other inksets in that regard. On matte, it's the familiar subtle neutral purpley look many of us have seen over the years. On the photo surfaces, it goes much warmer as you have observed, more to a rosey hue. In fact, as you note with the Harman, I found myself gravitating to the OBA papers for that ink as it knocked back that red a bit. Others on this list that got my samples may recall that.
> I also have prints made by Jon for me of the new Warm K7 set, also glossy compatable with GO, and again the photo surface papers are much warmer than the matte prints.
> It seems consistent across the board, the inkjet photo surfaces give different (warmer) prints than matte coatings with the identical Cone inks. It would be interesting to hear from others here about other mono matte/gloss inks.
> Without having them right in front of me, I think the examples of both gloss and matte on various papers with the HP that John Dean sent me, they seem more consistant across different coatings.
> Tyler

I do hate to ask. But... Is there any way to get the selenium look out 
of the Selenium MPS inkset on glossy surface substrates? That's really 
all I want -- the same look that I already get on matte papers on glossy 
papers. You know, consistency. Too much to ask? Wait, that's a 
rhetorical question. :D
--
Bruce Watson

On 21/03/10 3:42 PM, "Bruce Watson" <bwyg@...> wrote:

> I do hate to ask. But... Is there any way to get the selenium look out
> of the Selenium MPS inkset on glossy surface substrates? That's really
> all I want -- the same look that I already get on matte papers on glossy
> papers. You know, consistency. Too much to ask? Wait, that's a
> rhetorical question. :D

I have some Epson Exhibition Fiber coming, which I hope will cool things off
enough. However, I am wary about the level of OBA in this paper.

Terry.

one of the samples I sent people was on Innova Ultrasmooth, same paper as the Epson. I have a few other prints made that way here that fool people into thinking they are silver, a hair over toned like Ansel used to do. You might like it. 

Bruce.. um... maybe slosh some glossy varnish on your HPR prints? Mostly yeah, it's too much to ask, what on earth were you thinking?
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Terry Ritz <t.ritz@...> wrote:

>
> On 21/03/10 3:42 PM, "Bruce Watson" <bwyg@...> wrote:
> 
> > I do hate to ask. But... Is there any way to get the selenium look out
> > of the Selenium MPS inkset on glossy surface substrates? That's really
> > all I want -- the same look that I already get on matte papers on glossy
> > papers. You know, consistency. Too much to ask? Wait, that's a
> > rhetorical question. :D
> 
> I have some Epson Exhibition Fiber coming, which I hope will cool things off
> enough. However, I am wary about the level of OBA in this paper.
> 
> Terry.
>

It looks like my L* value is fine, but A* and B* are off.

Thanks Ernst.

Terry.

On 21/03/10 2:55 PM, "Ernst Dinkla" <edinkla@...> wrote:

> Terry Ritz schreef:
>> This is really interesting Tyler.
>> 
>> How are you measuring the paper base? I get 97.71 1.46 -0.36 when I measure
>> Canson Rag Photographique with my ColorVision Spectro Colorimiter. That's
>> using two blank sheets and than a black surface, under the page I'm
>> measuring.
>> 
>> Terry.
>> 
>> 
>> On 20/03/10 6:54 PM, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
>> 
>>> Canson Rag Photographique 310-
>>> White LAB= 98.93 0.03 1.16
>>> 50% AB= 1.34 5.78
>>> Dmax= 1.741
> 
> To add to the confusion I measure
> 
> Lab 97.8 0.2 1.6
> with a new Eye 1 Basic normal and three sheets CRP on museum matt board.
> 
> Lab 97.8 0.1 1.8
> with two sheets and black underneath.Eye 1
> Lab 96.28 0.6 1.86
> With a Spectrocam, that is old and usually lower on reflectance and
> higher on a b.
> 
> I think Tyler's measurement is alright.
> 
>

On 21/03/10 4:53 PM, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:

> one of the samples I sent people was on Innova Ultrasmooth, same paper as the
> Epson. I have a few other prints made that way here that fool people into
> thinking they are silver, a hair over toned like Ansel used to do. You might
> like it. 

That sounds promising Tyler. The Epson paper should be a nice contrast to
the warm tones I get with Type 5.

Terry.

pr_roark schreef:
>> ... the fact that different coatings create different hues with
>> mono ink should be a major clue that something delicate, and
>> potentially problematic, is happening chemically at that bond. ...
> 
> I'm not sure whether there is a chemical bond involved.
> 
> Another hypothesis is that the way in which pigments are absorbed or
> spread could affect the hues we see.  For example, with respect to
> the blended carbon + color inks, which include the Piezo inks (aside
> from the carbon sepia), the different pigment types could be absorbed
> differently on the coating.  Early on the way we could tell that an
> ink was not 100% carbon was to put a drop onto a piece of paper and
> the colors would spread and show -- a form of "paper chromatography."
> With the 100% carbon pigments the warmth seems to be an edge affect
> mostly.  Where a paper spreads the ink more, causing more of the edge
> to be semi-transparent, there might be more warmth.  Where the
> droplet is tightly held and does not spread or bleed, there might be
> less warmth.  This might affect the mostly carbon blended Piezo inks
> as well.
> 
> Paul www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 

Paul,

I would agree on that hypothesis. Depending on how opaque the pigment 
particles are and their size distribution you will see hue effects when 
coatings give different bleedings. It also recalls Tyler's observation 
that matte papers may have a higher optical resolution than gloss 
papers. The contrast possible with gloss papers disguises that.

Smaller droplet sizes of an ink should create more hue shifts too 
compared to larger droplets of the same ink. The total dot boundary area 
increases.

In conventional printing higher resolutions always meant a thinner ink 
layer. It will not be different in inkjet printing. The compromise will 
be in the gamut if the pigment load in the ink can not be increased at 
the same time. The N-color printers have an advantage that ink build up 
can be kept lower  in the substitution of  CMY mixes. The advantage of 
more grey inks for B&W printing will be lost to some extent or the 
darker inks have to start earlier on the tone range. None of the inkjet 
inks is really completely opaque, so a thiner ink layer should affect 
fade properties of the print too.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> >... the fact that different coatings create different hues with mono ink should be a major clue that something delicate, and potentially problematic, is happening chemically at that bond. ...
> 
> I'm not sure whether there is a chemical bond involved.  ...

I'm way out of my element here, but here is how it was described to me. The "bond" occurs out at the very outer edges of the structures- particles? molecules?...
The result being more tenuous than other kinds of potentially more "complete" bonds.
Would that make it chemical, molecular, particular?

The implication was that it's then more susceptable to influence and can be altered.. which not only might account for differences in appearance like hue (given any slight change in the makeup of any factor, the ink or the coating), but also breakdown from environmental factors like exposure to light, contaminates etc..

OK, enough of me making a fool of myself talking about things of which I no only enough to be dangerous...
Tyler

"tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
>
> Some worthy new papers have come along in the last year or so ...

> ...
> 
> Epson HotPress Natural-
> White LAB= 97.71 0.29 2.84
> 50% AB= 0.62 3.11
> Dmax= 1.678
> ...

This paper caught my eye due to it's very low change in Lab B.  100% carbon printing is characterized by a rather large change in Lab B in most papers, which is fine if you want a warm image, but not so fine if relatively neutral image tone is the target.

I received a box of the Epson paper and tested it with the 7800 and dilute Eboni (my generic c6 dilutions).  While the Lab B change with these inks is not as low as Tyler reported with his setup, the change is the lowest I've measured with Eboni/Carbon-6, at 2.14, from Lab B = 1.54 to 3.68.  With Eboni K, I'm getting a dmax of 1.73.

Overall, for my uses, this paper is a serious contender.  This delta-b is low enough that I don't think people will see snow and clouds as yellowish.

The paper I use that is closest to this is the Premier Art Hot Press 325, but the Epson paper edges it out slightly in both dmax and delta-b.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

I have been testing Epson Hot Press Natural for the past two months and have
had very good results using Eboni Hp C6. In addition the paper is very
reasonably priced at Atlex.com

Gary Wagner

www.garywagner.com

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pr_roark
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 6:35 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: new papers and coating observations

 

  

"tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
>
> Some worthy new papers have come along in the last year or so ...

> ...
> 
> Epson HotPress Natural-
> White LAB= 97.71 0.29 2.84
> 50% AB= 0.62 3.11
> Dmax= 1.678
> ...





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul,

I've had some good success with the Epson Hot Press Bright and HP C6 (no
warmer) for some Antarctic snow scenes that just look peculiar on warmer
paper (yellow snow, no txs). I know that paper is probably a non-starter for
you because of the OBAs, but for scenes with snow in them, its great and its
not ugly super white (b= -2 max). Also looks good with Cone's SE inkset as
well.

Mike

On 27 March 2010 03:16, Gary <gary@...> wrote:

>
>
> Paul,
>
> I have been testing Epson Hot Press Natural for the past two months and
> have
> had very good results using Eboni Hp C6. In addition the paper is very
> reasonably priced at Atlex.com
>
> Gary Wagner
>
> www.garywagner.com
>
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>]
> On Behalf Of pr_roark
> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 6:35 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: new papers and coating observations
>
>
> "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
> >
> > Some worthy new papers have come along in the last year or so ...
>
> > ...
> >
> > Epson HotPress Natural-
> > White LAB= 97.71 0.29 2.84
> > 50% AB= 0.62 3.11
> > Dmax= 1.678
> > ...
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul,

The Dmax you are reporting for this Epson paper with the Eboni C6 setup: Is the 100% step being carried entirely by full strength Eboni ink? If so, at what ink limit are you hitting Damx? Or are your curves similar IJM's K7 where lower density inks also contribute to Dmax?

Thank you and regards.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "tboleyyh" <tyler@> wrote:
> >
> > Some worthy new papers have come along in the last year or so ...
> 
> > ...
> > 
> > Epson HotPress Natural-
> > White LAB= 97.71 0.29 2.84
> > 50% AB= 0.62 3.11
> > Dmax= 1.678
> > ...
> 
> This paper caught my eye due to it's very low change in Lab B.  100% carbon printing is characterized by a rather large change in Lab B in most papers, which is fine if you want a warm image, but not so fine if relatively neutral image tone is the target.
> 
> I received a box of the Epson paper and tested it with the 7800 and dilute Eboni (my generic c6 dilutions).  While the Lab B change with these inks is not as low as Tyler reported with his setup, the change is the lowest I've measured with Eboni/Carbon-6, at 2.14, from Lab B = 1.54 to 3.68.  With Eboni K, I'm getting a dmax of 1.73.
> 
> Overall, for my uses, this paper is a serious contender.  This delta-b is low enough that I don't think people will see snow and clouds as yellowish.
> 
> The paper I use that is closest to this is the Premier Art Hot Press 325, but the Epson paper edges it out slightly in both dmax and delta-b.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"shileshjani" <janishilesh@...> wrote:
>
> Paul,
> 
> The Dmax you are reporting for this Epson paper with the Eboni C6 setup: Is the 100% step being carried entirely by full strength Eboni ink?

> If so, at what ink limit are you hitting Damx? 

The 7800 profile used a K ink limit of 75.  I do not mix in lighter ink at the 100% spot.  With Eboni it almost always lowers the dmax.  (It also causes too much bleed.)

The 1400 black only has an ink limit of 45.  By the way, with Eboni black only the change in Lab B from paper white to max. Lab B is only 0.7.  That is, it's almost totally neutral.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Excellent - thank you Paul.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "shileshjani" <janishilesh@> wrote:
> >
> > Paul,
> > 
> > The Dmax you are reporting for this Epson paper with the Eboni C6 setup: Is the 100% step being carried entirely by full strength Eboni ink?
> 
> > If so, at what ink limit are you hitting Damx? 
> 
> The 7800 profile used a K ink limit of 75.  I do not mix in lighter ink at the 100% spot.  With Eboni it almost always lowers the dmax.  (It also causes too much bleed.)
> 
> The 1400 black only has an ink limit of 45.  By the way, with Eboni black only the change in Lab B from paper white to max. Lab B is only 0.7.  That is, it's almost totally neutral.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>