Digital BW, The Print

While this is a B/W group I have seen some have tested and discussed 
Colorbase.

I have been trying to run it with mixed results. I run it with a 
Pulse spectro and custom-profiles made with the same package.

On USFA I got fairly good results and no issue (that I can 
identify...). 

Oppositely on Archival Matte with the proper driver settings the 
results are below expectations not to say puzzling. With CB not 
activated and a custom profile with no clb, the print is pretty good. 
With CB clb file activated and a custom profile made with clb 
activated the result is poor : on a portrait I often use for profile 
assessment, the skin is reddish and bluish. At visualising the 
profiles, the one made with no clb looks smooth evenly distributed. 
Oppositely the one made with the clb file shows a very strange "leg" 
at about L* 20-25 in the +a-b area. I have processed (re-print, re-
mesured) the target(s) many times also having the same profile and 
the same output. Of course the output does not match the screen 
softproof (2070SB Optix-profiled). This +a-b "leg" is very puzzling : 
I have never identified it in the past on a 1800 (but it uses another 
ink set) and it does not exist without clb activated.

One major drawback I find in CB is that there is no way (that I've 
found so far) to visualise the measurement of the clb print target 
oppositely to profile visualisations that are widely available(no 
delta, no graph... nothing). From the Pulse experience, I have often 
come across wrong measurement that are not explainable. But at least 
one can delete and re-process knowing the profiling has failed. This 
being said, various measurements, and profile creations come to the 
same "bad" result.

So questions :
- Has anyone came across the same situation (CB activate, cutom 
profile with the clb, Archival Matte-EEM) of a aditional gamut in the 
shadow in the +a-b area.
- Has anyone found a way of assessing the clb files.

PS : to Steve Kale
I now suspect why Epson recommends not to cut USFA with the in-built 
cutter. The issue is not the thickness of the paper though it is very 
thick and getting the cutter dull soon. The issue is that the cut 
creates a lot of particules-dust...that the printer should not be too 
happy with. USFA is a nice paper, but the other thing one has to deal 
with, in case of roll-cutting, is the curl of the paper : it is 
simply aweful. I have not yet find a way to deal with it without 
damaging the surface of the paper which extremely fragile.

Olivier

When I print color with my 4800, I just use the Atkinson profiles. I 
never have messed with colorbase. 

The Atkinson profiles are the best profiles I've used. They are spot 
on.

Though I'm not sure if he has matte profiles yet for the 4800.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" 
<odesmais@y...> wrote:
>
> While this is a B/W group I have seen some have tested and 
discussed 
> Colorbase.
> 
> I have been trying to run it with mixed results. I run it with a 
> Pulse spectro and custom-profiles made with the same package.
> 
> On USFA I got fairly good results and no issue (that I can 
> identify...). 
> 
> Oppositely on Archival Matte with the proper driver settings the 
> results are below expectations not to say puzzling. With CB not 
> activated and a custom profile with no clb, the print is pretty 
good. 
> With CB clb file activated and a custom profile made with clb 
> activated the result is poor : on a portrait I often use for 
profile 
> assessment, the skin is reddish and bluish. At visualising the 
> profiles, the one made with no clb looks smooth evenly distributed. 
> Oppositely the one made with the clb file shows a very 
strange "leg" 
> at about L* 20-25 in the +a-b area. I have processed (re-print, re-
> mesured) the target(s) many times also having the same profile and 
> the same output. Of course the output does not match the screen 
> softproof (2070SB Optix-profiled). This +a-b "leg" is very 
puzzling : 
> I have never identified it in the past on a 1800 (but it uses 
another 
> ink set) and it does not exist without clb activated.
> 
> One major drawback I find in CB is that there is no way (that I've 
> found so far) to visualise the measurement of the clb print target 
> oppositely to profile visualisations that are widely available(no 
> delta, no graph... nothing). From the Pulse experience, I have 
often 
> come across wrong measurement that are not explainable. But at 
least 
> one can delete and re-process knowing the profiling has failed. 
This 
> being said, various measurements, and profile creations come to the 
> same "bad" result.
> 
> So questions :
> - Has anyone came across the same situation (CB activate, cutom 
> profile with the clb, Archival Matte-EEM) of a aditional gamut in 
the 
> shadow in the +a-b area.
> - Has anyone found a way of assessing the clb files.
> 
> PS : to Steve Kale
> I now suspect why Epson recommends not to cut USFA with the in-
built 
> cutter. The issue is not the thickness of the paper though it is 
very 
> thick and getting the cutter dull soon. The issue is that the cut 
> creates a lot of particules-dust...that the printer should not be 
too 
> happy with. USFA is a nice paper, but the other thing one has to 
deal 

> with, in case of roll-cutting, is the curl of the paper : it is 
> simply aweful. I have not yet find a way to deal with it without 
> damaging the surface of the paper which extremely fragile.
> 
> Olivier
>

From reading this, it sounds like you are doing things correctly. 
Obviously, you are bound by the way that Epson designed the ColorBase 
software, so unless you are having measurement errors there, it seems 
you are doing things correctly. So I can't really suggest why that 
calibration is worng. And of course when the calibration is loaded, 
if it is wrong, that might wreck the profile you make for the printer.

The only thing I can think of, besides a hardware defect with the 
Pulse, is that maybe the OBA in Archival Matte is causing a problem. 
Are you using the regular Pulse spectro, or the Pulse UV cut spectro.

If you have the spot reading attachment, you could measure the 
ColorBase patches to some sort of a text file, and then look at the 
measurements and see if any stick out as being either bad 
measurements, or a print problem. After that you may need to find 
someone with an i1 or even another Pulse to use to check your spectro.

To get measurements into a text file, you can use the free utility 
from Xrite called ColorPort, I don't have the exact link at the 
moment, but a search of the Xrite USA web site always seems to find 
it for me. You'll have to make a custom target that has the correct 
number of patches, and once you save that target, you could probably 
ignore the resulting TIFF image. Then you can measure your ColoBase 
targets, and save the result as either Lab to a text file, or I think 
it will offer desitometric values to a text file too. If you want 
spectral values, along with Lab, then save as a CGATS formatted text 
file. If you can tell me exactly how many patches of each color there 
are, and how many per row (including gray patches to fill out the 
row), and how many rows of each color, I might be able to make the 
Colorport target to get you going faster. A picture or scan of the 
printed target would be helpful too.

Also, where are you located, maybe someone will be nearby, or at 
least easy to send the print too, that has a different spectro. 
ColorBase says it supports remote measurement, as long as the correct 
driver is loaded. And the new drivers should load with out having the 
proper printer connected.

Greg, thanks for the help.
I have the UV cut spectro. I must admit it acts heratic when it has 
been connected to Colorbase, but a reset gets it in normal 
conditions : I just suspect some kind of weird driver in Colorbase to 
run the spectro but this would not be the main issue since USFA was 
processed just fine to my evaluation.

In fact I read on Luminous Landscape review that the use of Colorbase 
was getting on EEM a denser red output with a GMB package. I'd have 
loved to get a feedback on someone else getting also a kind of wider 
gamut in the magenta area (what I called a "leg +a-b"). I looks so 
weird that I can't believe it, and I guess many use EEM for proofing, 
so they must have had the processing done.

I use Colorshop and colorport so it's not a problem to buid a target, 
it's just that I'm located in France and few people get a spectro (at 
least that I know). So feedback from experienced users would have 
helped. For the drivers unfortunately it looks like they are 
different from countries to countries so you can not really guarantee 
2 users have the same version and Epson France support is very little 
helpful, I was told the firmware and driver on the French site are 
older than the one loaded in my printer !!!???

I'd have liked to get the printer back to its initial calibration 
since this way I suspect I'd get perfect linearization...and of 
course I've got no RIP !!!

Would you have by any chance the calibration target printed once 
calibration is applied on EEM (which is Archival Matte for France) 
and...the reading of the patches (or some of them). In all logics we 
should have the same reading at +/- 1.0 on a and b, right ? This is 
the kind of datas Epson should release so you can assess your 
calibration.

Again thanks for the help.

Olivier

I'm sure they are excellent, but in my case I got the 4800 for 
printing portraits on matte papers. The skin tone needs to be as 
natural as possible which I can not get on a 1800. In fact I was 
printing portraits in B/W piezo so I'm away of ugly renderings.

On USFA the tone is precisely what I was expecting and matches what I 
view on the screen, so Colorbase+custom profiling adds something for 
me. I'd just like to be able to reproduce it on EEM (Archival Matte) 
so I can fully proof the print before using more expensive papers.

Olivier

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
>
> When I print color with my 4800, I just use the Atkinson profiles. 
I 
> never have messed with colorbase. 
> 
> The Atkinson profiles are the best profiles I've used. They are 
spot 

> on.
> 
> Though I'm not sure if he has matte profiles yet for the 4800.
> 
> Scott
> 
>

I had the R800 (same technolgy and ink as the R1800) and yes I agree, 
the 4800 is MUCH better for portraits. The R800 was too contrasty. 

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" 
<odesmais@y...> wrote:
>
> I'm sure they are excellent, but in my case I got the 4800 for 
> printing portraits on matte papers. The skin tone needs to be as 
> natural as possible which I can not get on a 1800. In fact I was 
> printing portraits in B/W piezo so I'm away of ugly renderings.
> 
> On USFA the tone is precisely what I was expecting and matches what 
I 
> view on the screen, so Colorbase+custom profiling adds something 
for 
> me. I'd just like to be able to reproduce it on EEM (Archival 
Matte) 
> so I can fully proof the print before using more expensive papers.
> 
> Olivier
> 
> --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
> <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> >
> > When I print color with my 4800, I just use the Atkinson 
profiles. 

> I 
> > never have messed with colorbase. 
> > 
> > The Atkinson profiles are the best profiles I've used. They are 
> spot 
> > on.
> > 
> > Though I'm not sure if he has matte profiles yet for the 4800.
> > 
> > Scott
> > 
> >
>

Olivier,


I have had alot of success using the d-roller for flattening paper
that comes off roll stock.  Talk to Jim at shades of paper
www.shadesofpaper.com.  

Best.

Josh

> PS : to Steve Kale
> I now suspect why Epson recommends not to cut USFA with the in-built 
> cutter. The issue is not the thickness of the paper though it is very 
> thick and getting the cutter dull soon. The issue is that the cut 
> creates a lot of particules-dust...that the printer should not be too 
> happy with. USFA is a nice paper, but the other thing one has to deal 
> with, in case of roll-cutting, is the curl of the paper : it is 
> simply aweful. I have not yet find a way to deal with it without 
> damaging the surface of the paper which extremely fragile.
> 
> Olivier
>

I also bought the D roller from Jim. Great product. Don't know how I lived without it.
Woody Spedden

----- Original Message ----
From: joshhackney <joshhackney@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:35:56 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Paper Curl - was 4800 Colorbase (color issue)


Olivier,


I have had alot of success using the d-roller for flattening paper
that comes off roll stock.  Talk to Jim at shades of paper
www.shadesofpaper.com.  

Best.

Josh


> PS : to Steve Kale
> I now suspect why Epson recommends not to cut USFA with the in-built 
> cutter. The issue is not the thickness of the paper though it is very 
> thick and getting the cutter dull soon. The issue is that the cut 
> creates a lot of particules-dust...that the printer should not be too 
> happy with. USFA is a nice paper, but the other thing one has to deal 
> with, in case of roll-cutting, is the curl of the paper : it is 
> simply aweful. I have not yet find a way to deal with it without 
> damaging the surface of the paper which extremely fragile.
> 
> Olivier
>






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wouldn't a 4" length of pvc pipe, some tape, and kraft or butcher 
paper work just as well?

It'd be a lot cheaper and the savings could buy a lot of paper.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <elwood@w...> 
wrote:
>
> I also bought the D roller from Jim. Great product. Don't know how 
I lived without it.
> Woody Spedden
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: joshhackney <joshhackney@g...>
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:35:56 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Paper Curl - was 4800 Colorbase (color 
issue)
> 
> 
> Olivier,
> 
> 
> I have had alot of success using the d-roller for flattening paper
> that comes off roll stock.  Talk to Jim at shades of paper
> www.shadesofpaper.com.  
> 
> Best.
> 
> Josh
> 
> 
> > PS : to Steve Kale
> > I now suspect why Epson recommends not to cut USFA with the in-
built 
> > cutter. The issue is not the thickness of the paper though it is 
very 
> > thick and getting the cutter dull soon. The issue is that the cut 
> > creates a lot of particules-dust...that the printer should not be 
too 
> > happy with. USFA is a nice paper, but the other thing one has to 
deal 
> > with, in case of roll-cutting, is the curl of the paper : it is 
> > simply aweful. I have not yet find a way to deal with it without 
> > damaging the surface of the paper which extremely fragile.
> > 
> > Olivier
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in 
the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER 
AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPONSORED LINKS 
> Digital wedding photography Learn digital photography Digital 
photography college 
> Digital photography Digital photography web site Digital 
photography course 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> 
> 
>  Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
>   
>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 

> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
>
> Wouldn't a 4" length of pvc pipe, some tape, and kraft or butcher 
> paper work just as well?
> 
> It'd be a lot cheaper and the savings could buy a lot of paper.
> 


For casual use, I like a really cheap roll of canvas from ebay. But 
the D-Roller does have advantages. You can clean it easily, and the 
plastic is less likely to scuff your work.