Digital BW, The Print

Hi Folks --

Forgive me if this is a *very* basic question that has been answered 
before, but a web search hasn't turned up much useful information.  

The well-known advantage of using B&W film is the ability to expand 
or contract developing times in order to obtain both shadow and 
highlight detail in the finished print.  When using a digital camera 
to make what will eventually become a "fine art" B&W print, is there 
any known technique that mimics the N-1 or N-2 film development 
process?  Thanks!

-- Darrell

The zone system is a tool.

The method is used to remap your highlights.
This is very simply done in either the curves or levels dialog boxes.

Click the black eyedropper on the blackest part of your photo to  
achieve zone 0 there.
Click the white eyedropper on the whitest part to achieve zone 10.

Use the sliders to get different zones (other than 0 or 10) in levels  
or remap the curves end points in curves.

On Wednesday, September 10, 2003, at 09:45  AM, darrelleifert wrote:

> Hi Folks --
>
> Forgive me if this is a *very* basic question that has been answered
> before, but a web search hasn't turned up much useful information.
>
> The well-known advantage of using B&W film is the ability to expand
> or contract developing times in order to obtain both shadow and
> highlight detail in the finished print.  When using a digital camera
> to make what will eventually become a "fine art" B&W print, is there
> any known technique that mimics the N-1 or N-2 film development
> process?  Thanks!
>
> -- Darrell
>
>
>
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Regards,

Loring Palleske
Creative Imaging
416.301.1711

Someone on the list will know the name (which evades me at this moment) -
but there is a Photoshop plug-in that uses the Zone System as a metaphor for
setting tonal values.

Wendel

> 
> Forgive me if this is a *very* basic question that has been answered
> before, but a web search hasn't turned up much useful information.
> 
> The well-known advantage of using B&W film is the ability to expand
> or contract developing times in order to obtain both shadow and
> highlight detail in the finished print.  When using a digital camera
> to make what will eventually become a "fine art" B&W print, is there
> any known technique that mimics the N-1 or N-2 film development
> process?  Thanks!
> 
> -- Darrell

Hi Loring --

Hmmm, I think what I *really* meant to ask was whether a digital 
camera can mimic the ability of film to "compress" a high-contrast 
scene so that both shadow and highlight detail are evident in the 
final print.  If both shadow and highlight detail are beyond the 
dynamic range of the film, development time can be cut short in 
order to allow both to appear in the final print.  Photoshop can re-
map the highlights, but what if the original digital exposure "blew 
out" the highlights because the photographer exposed for shadow 
detail?  Or conversely, what if the image is correctly exposed for 
highlight detail but significant shadow detail is blacked out?  

Perhaps a better question would be whether the dynamic range of a 
digital camera is such that the curves and levels adjustments in 
Photoshop will be able to recover detail that at first glance 
seems "lost" in pure white or black.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Loring Palleske 
<lorpal@m...> wrote:
> The zone system is a tool.
> 
> The method is used to remap your highlights.
> This is very simply done in either the curves or levels dialog 
boxes.
> 
> Click the black eyedropper on the blackest part of your photo to  
> achieve zone 0 there.
> Click the white eyedropper on the whitest part to achieve zone 10.
> 
> Use the sliders to get different zones (other than 0 or 10) in 
levels  
> or remap the curves end points in curves.
> 
> On Wednesday, September 10, 2003, at 09:45  AM, darrelleifert 
wrote:
> 
> > Hi Folks --
> >
> > Forgive me if this is a *very* basic question that has been 
answered
> > before, but a web search hasn't turned up much useful 
information.
> >
> > The well-known advantage of using B&W film is the ability to 
expand
> > or contract developing times in order to obtain both shadow and
> > highlight detail in the finished print.  When using a digital 
camera
> > to make what will eventually become a "fine art" B&W print, is 
there
> > any known technique that mimics the N-1 or N-2 film development
> > process?  Thanks!
> >
> > -- Darrell
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  
> > ---------------------~-->
> > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or 
Lexmark
> > Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US 
&  
> > Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/ucIolB/TM
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
---- 
> > ~->
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls  
> > and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is 
at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish  
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting  
> > this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to  
> > keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject  
> > header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
the  

> > various resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> Regards,
> 
> Loring Palleske
> Creative Imaging
> 416.301.1711

Darrell,

CMOS and CCD chips are more similar to slide film than
of black and white film, being as they have much less
latitude.  From basic camera controls in initial
capture, there is not a method to stretch the latitude
of the CCD.  

You can mimic the effects of n-1, n-2. etc., from
various controls in photoshop - but that defeats the
purpose of placing specific values or zones on site.

As the digital camera is just an imaging device, you
can apply zone system techniques for far less work in
photoshop.

My capture process:

1. Read scene with handheld lightmeter, placing my
important value.  I have determined the optimal ISO of
my 10d is 80 with my materials.
2. Capture in RAW mode.
3. Transfer images to photoshop as 16 bit tiff.
4. Convert image to greyscale.

At this point the specific zone placed will fall
exactly where I want it - without levels or curves
manipulation.  The process is quite simple, and saves
hours in photoshop.  I save this as my master file,
making any corrections then printing.
 
Write me directly if you would like to know my process
for determining the proper ISO for digital, as well as
constructing a zone ruler to see the latitude of your
imaging chip.

Don


--- darrelleifert <darrelleifert@...> wrote:
> Hi Folks --
> 
> Forgive me if this is a *very* basic question that
> has been answered 
> before, but a web search hasn't turned up much
> useful information.  
> 
> The well-known advantage of using B&W film is the
> ability to expand 
> or contract developing times in order to obtain both
> shadow and 
> highlight detail in the finished print.  When using
> a digital camera 
> to make what will eventually become a "fine art" B&W
> print, is there 
> any known technique that mimics the N-1 or N-2 film
> development 
> process?  Thanks!
> 
> -- Darrell
> 
> 
> 


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Darrell  -
 
If you have a good understanding of how the n+- processes in the Zone system work, then you'll be fine with the process(or some variation of it) that Loring describes.  Keep in mind that Photoshop can take the n+- process to any extreme that you desire(or not).  In conventional B&W film processing, the actual effect of n+- processing creates a more or less linear change in the developed film.  The actual change in the resulting curve is/can be different for each film/developer/temperature combination.  While using the 'curves' functionality in PS, you could, in theory at least, mimic any film/developer/temperature combination.  However, you can also alter the final 'curve' in ways that are non-linear.  The beauty of this is that we can do things with PS that many have wanted to be able to do with film, and couldn't.  Especially, affecting ONLY the highlights or shadows in an image when applying contrast/value adjustments.
 
With conventional film/developer any n+- processing changed the entire curve to some extent.  On some images this worked out fine. On others it may unacceptably alter the mid-values.  With PS you can completely isolate this control.  Keep in mind, that like anything else in either film or digital work, you can easily overuse a technique, and end up with 'manipulated' looking images.  For me, PS has allowed me to alter the final images to appear more like the eye sees it than the much more restrictive(in terms of values) way film sees it.  
 
But, this can truly be a creative process.  So, use it as it fits your vision of things.
 
TB

Loring Palleske <lorpal@...> wrote:
The zone system is a tool.

The method is used to remap your highlights.
This is very simply done in either the curves or levels dialog boxes.

Click the black eyedropper on the blackest part of your photo to  
achieve zone 0 there.
Click the white eyedropper on the whitest part to achieve zone 10.

Use the sliders to get different zones (other than 0 or 10) in levels  
or remap the curves end points in curves.

On Wednesday, September 10, 2003, at 09:45  AM, darrelleifert wrote:

> Hi Folks --
>
> Forgive me if this is a *very* basic question that has been answered
> before, but a web search hasn't turned up much useful information.
>
> The well-known advantage of using B&W film is the ability to expand
> or contract developing times in order to obtain both shadow and
> highlight detail in the finished print.  When using a digital camera
> to make what will eventually become a "fine art" B&W print, is there
> any known technique that mimics the N-1 or N-2 film development
> process?  Thanks!
>
> -- Darrell
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  
> ---------------------~-->
> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
> Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &  
> Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/ucIolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ~->
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls  
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to  
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject  
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the  
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Regards,

Loring Palleske
Creative Imaging
416.301.1711


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- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There is a plugin available (maybe someone can provide the name) that allows you to take multiple "exposures" from a digital camera and layer them together to get the best highlight/shadow from each exposure.  This can be done from scanned film images as well, just using PS tools, but it is a lot of work.  The results I saw from using the multiple digital exposures was quite impressive.
 
TB


"D. Hill" <hill14701@...> wrote:
Darrell,

CMOS and CCD chips are more similar to slide film than
of black and white film, being as they have much less
latitude.  From basic camera controls in initial
capture, there is not a method to stretch the latitude
of the CCD.  

You can mimic the effects of n-1, n-2. etc., from
various controls in photoshop - but that defeats the
purpose of placing specific values or zones on site.

As the digital camera is just an imaging device, you
can apply zone system techniques for far less work in
photoshop.

My capture process:

1. Read scene with handheld lightmeter, placing my
important value.  I have determined the optimal ISO of
my 10d is 80 with my materials.
2. Capture in RAW mode.
3. Transfer images to photoshop as 16 bit tiff.
4. Convert image to greyscale.

At this point the specific zone placed will fall
exactly where I want it - without levels or curves
manipulation.  The process is quite simple, and saves
hours in photoshop.  I save this as my master file,
making any corrections then printing.

Write me directly if you would like to know my process
for determining the proper ISO for digital, as well as
constructing a zone ruler to see the latitude of your
imaging chip.

Don


--- darrelleifert <darrelleifert@...> wrote:
> Hi Folks --
> 
> Forgive me if this is a *very* basic question that
> has been answered 
> before, but a web search hasn't turned up much
> useful information.  
> 
> The well-known advantage of using B&W film is the
> ability to expand 
> or contract developing times in order to obtain both
> shadow and 
> highlight detail in the finished print.  When using
> a digital camera 
> to make what will eventually become a "fine art" B&W
> print, is there 
> any known technique that mimics the N-1 or N-2 film
> development 
> process?  Thanks!
> 
> -- Darrell
> 
> 
> 


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Don --

Thanks for the CMOS/CCD information.  That's what I suspected, and 
that's what gives me pause about moving to digital.  By using n-1, n-
2 development times and a good exposure, we can with film capture 
more tonal detail from high-contrast scenes and thus create a 
greater dramatic impact. Or so it seems at first glance.  Perhaps I 
just haven't read enough on how to handle high-contrast scenes with 
a digital camera.  Any suggestions??


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "D. Hill" 
<hill14701@y...> wrote:

> Darrell,
> 
> CMOS and CCD chips are more similar to slide film than
> of black and white film, being as they have much less
> latitude.  From basic camera controls in initial
> capture, there is not a method to stretch the latitude
> of the CCD.  
> 
> You can mimic the effects of n-1, n-2. etc., from
> various controls in photoshop - but that defeats the
> purpose of placing specific values or zones on site.
> 
> As the digital camera is just an imaging device, you
> can apply zone system techniques for far less work in
> photoshop.
> 
> My capture process:
> 
> 1. Read scene with handheld lightmeter, placing my
> important value.  I have determined the optimal ISO of
> my 10d is 80 with my materials.
> 2. Capture in RAW mode.
> 3. Transfer images to photoshop as 16 bit tiff.
> 4. Convert image to greyscale.
> 
> At this point the specific zone placed will fall
> exactly where I want it - without levels or curves
> manipulation.  The process is quite simple, and saves
> hours in photoshop.  I save this as my master file,
> making any corrections then printing.
>  
> Write me directly if you would like to know my process
> for determining the proper ISO for digital, as well as
> constructing a zone ruler to see the latitude of your
> imaging chip.
> 
> Don
> 
> 
> --- darrelleifert <darrelleifert@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Folks --
> > 
> > Forgive me if this is a *very* basic question that
> > has been answered 
> > before, but a web search hasn't turned up much
> > useful information.  
> > 
> > The well-known advantage of using B&W film is the
> > ability to expand 
> > or contract developing times in order to obtain both
> > shadow and 
> > highlight detail in the finished print.  When using
> > a digital camera 
> > to make what will eventually become a "fine art" B&W
> > print, is there 
> > any known technique that mimics the N-1 or N-2 film
> > development 
> > process?  Thanks!
> > 
> > -- Darrell
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

FWIW, in my year or so of digital capture (after 40+ using film, almost all 
of it black and white) it is my observation that if you blow a highlight 
there's nothing to be done because there simply is no data to work 
with.  OTOH, there is an enormous amount of shadow detail captured by good 
digital sensors, detail which is completely invisible unless you lighten 
the overall image way beyond what would be tolerable in a print.  Given the 
ability to selectively "burn and dodge" a digital image with very precise 
boundaries to the adjustment, I suspect that you would find you have even 
more flexibility with digital capture than with film.  SO - if you expose 
to capture the highlights, it's almost certain that there will be a way to 
dig out the shadow detail, whether by a simple adjustment to the levels or 
curves applied to the overall image, or a more complex adjustment that's 
limited to specific shadow areas.  (I was never very good at burning or 
dodging a print in my darkroom, but I'm a (comparative only) master of such 
manipulation in Photoshop.)  The better digital cameras have preview 
options that let you see immediately if (and to what extent) you've blown 
the highlights in a particular image, so you can reset and reshoot 
immediately if necessary.

Cheers,
Kip

At 9/10/2003 03:01 PM +0000, you wrote:

>Hi Loring --
>
>Hmmm, I think what I *really* meant to ask was whether a digital
>camera can mimic the ability of film to "compress" a high-contrast
>scene so that both shadow and highlight detail are evident in the
>final print.  If both shadow and highlight detail are beyond the
>dynamic range of the film, development time can be cut short in
>order to allow both to appear in the final print.  Photoshop can re-
>map the highlights, but what if the original digital exposure "blew
>out" the highlights because the photographer exposed for shadow
>detail?  Or conversely, what if the image is correctly exposed for
>highlight detail but significant shadow detail is blacked out?
>
>Perhaps a better question would be whether the dynamic range of a
>digital camera is such that the curves and levels adjustments in
>Photoshop will be able to recover detail that at first glance
>seems "lost" in pure white or black.

Aha -- that would solve the "narrow dynamic range" problem I've been 
mulling over in trying to decide whether to switch to digital.  I 
was actually thinking in terms of multiple exposures and photoshop 
layers, so the name of that plugin would be very useful.  Again, 
thanks to all for the helpful ideas.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> There is a plugin available (maybe someone can provide the name) 
that allows you to take multiple "exposures" from a digital camera 
and layer them together to get the best highlight/shadow from each 
exposure.  This can be done from scanned film images as well, just 
using PS tools, but it is a lot of work.  The results I saw from 
using the multiple digital exposures was quite impressive.
>  
> TB
have been removed]

Did some checking on the web -- is it the Photomatix plugin?  Looks 
like it is designed specifically to compress high-contrast images.

-- Darrell

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> There is a plugin available (maybe someone can provide the name) 
that allows you to take multiple "exposures" from a digital camera 
and layer them together to get the best highlight/shadow from each 
exposure.  This can be done from scanned film images as well, just 
using PS tools, but it is a lot of work.  The results I saw from 
using the multiple digital exposures was quite impressive.
>  
ed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "darrelleifert" 
<darrelleifert@y...> wrote:
> Hi Loring --
> 
> Hmmm, I think what I *really* meant to ask was whether a digital 
> camera can mimic the ability of film to "compress" a high-contrast 
> scene so that both shadow and highlight detail are evident in the 
> final print.  

For digital cameras, there is a simple techniques that allows both 
shadows and highlights to be capture even though they are out of 
range of the ccd.

Take one shot for the hightlight and another one for the shadows and 
combine both shots in Photoshop. This technique is described on 
numerous sites. Search www.luminous-landscape.com for their own take 
on this techique.
Cheers,
Andre

The high end digital capture devices (ie film backs) actually have  
greater latitude. Some advertise 12 stops.
Multiple exposures work well for non moving subjects but with moving  
subjects - definitely expose for the highlights.

Larry Botch has a good multiexposure tutorial on his site. I tried  
looking for it - when I find it I will send you the link.

On Wednesday, September 10, 2003, at 11:27  AM, darrelleifert wrote:

> Aha -- that would solve the "narrow dynamic range" problem I've been
> mulling over in trying to decide whether to switch to digital.  I
> was actually thinking in terms of multiple exposures and photoshop
> layers, so the name of that plugin would be very useful.  Again,
> thanks to all for the helpful ideas.
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker
> <tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
>> There is a plugin available (maybe someone can provide the name)
> that allows you to take multiple "exposures" from a digital camera
> and layer them together to get the best highlight/shadow from each
> exposure.  This can be done from scanned film images as well, just
> using PS tools, but it is a lot of work.  The results I saw from
> using the multiple digital exposures was quite impressive.
>>
>> TB
> have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  
> ---------------------~-->
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ~->
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls  
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to  
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject  
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the  
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Regards,

Loring Palleske
Creative Imaging
416.301.1711

Don,

I've been wondering about a good means to do "effective ISO" testing for 
digital, so if you're willing to share I'd appreciate it if you'd send me 
some info on how you've done this.

Thanks!

--Greg

At 08:01 AM 9/10/2003 -0700, D. Hill wrote:

>Darrell,
>
>CMOS and CCD chips are more similar to slide film than
>of black and white film, being as they have much less
>latitude.  From basic camera controls in initial
>capture, there is not a method to stretch the latitude
>of the CCD.
>
>You can mimic the effects of n-1, n-2. etc., from
>various controls in photoshop - but that defeats the
>purpose of placing specific values or zones on site.
>
>As the digital camera is just an imaging device, you
>can apply zone system techniques for far less work in
>photoshop.
>
>My capture process:
>
>1. Read scene with handheld lightmeter, placing my
>important value.  I have determined the optimal ISO of
>my 10d is 80 with my materials.
>2. Capture in RAW mode.
>3. Transfer images to photoshop as 16 bit tiff.
>4. Convert image to greyscale.
>
>At this point the specific zone placed will fall
>exactly where I want it - without levels or curves
>manipulation.  The process is quite simple, and saves
>hours in photoshop.  I save this as my master file,
>making any corrections then printing.
>
>Write me directly if you would like to know my process
>for determining the proper ISO for digital, as well as
>constructing a zone ruler to see the latitude of your
>imaging chip.
>
>Don

I don't know about a plugin, but it would seem to me that since each 
image is ultimately different that you would want to just bend masked 
layers yourself in PS...

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> There is a plugin available (maybe someone can provide the name) 
that allows you to take multiple "exposures" from a digital camera 
and layer them together to get the best highlight/shadow from each 
exposure.  This can be done from scanned film images as well, just 
using PS tools, but it is a lot of work.  The results I saw from 
using the multiple digital exposures was quite impressive.
>  
> TB
> 
> 
> "D. Hill" <hill14701@y...> wrote:
> Darrell,
> 
> CMOS and CCD chips are more similar to slide film than
> of black and white film, being as they have much less
> latitude.  From basic camera controls in initial
> capture, there is not a method to stretch the latitude
> of the CCD.  
> 
> You can mimic the effects of n-1, n-2. etc., from
> various controls in photoshop - but that defeats the
> purpose of placing specific values or zones on site.
> 
> As the digital camera is just an imaging device, you
> can apply zone system techniques for far less work in
> photoshop.
> 
> My capture process:
> 
> 1. Read scene with handheld lightmeter, placing my
> important value.  I have determined the optimal ISO of
> my 10d is 80 with my materials.
> 2. Capture in RAW mode.
> 3. Transfer images to photoshop as 16 bit tiff.
> 4. Convert image to greyscale.
> 
> At this point the specific zone placed will fall
> exactly where I want it - without levels or curves
> manipulation.  The process is quite simple, and saves
> hours in photoshop.  I save this as my master file,
> making any corrections then printing.
> 
> Write me directly if you would like to know my process
> for determining the proper ISO for digital, as well as
> constructing a zone ruler to see the latitude of your
> imaging chip.
> 
> Don
> 
> 
> --- darrelleifert <darrelleifert@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Folks --
> > 
> > Forgive me if this is a *very* basic question that
> > has been answered 
> > before, but a web search hasn't turned up much
> > useful information.  
> > 
> > The well-known advantage of using B&W film is the
> > ability to expand 
> > or contract developing times in order to obtain both
> > shadow and 
> > highlight detail in the finished print.  When using
> > a digital camera 
> > to make what will eventually become a "fine art" B&W
> > print, is there 
> > any known technique that mimics the N-1 or N-2 film
> > development 
> > process?  Thanks!
> > 
> > -- Darrell
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Darrell,

The one suggestion I have is to circumvent the digital
camera.  An excellent film scanner will cost the same
as a good digital body (Canon 10d or Nikon d100) - so
if you are accustomed to film cameras, there is no
reason to stop using them.  This will allow greater
controls than is possible with the digital body alone
- and you don't have to buy any additional lenses,
equipment, etc.

Don


--- darrelleifert <darrelleifert@...> wrote:
> Hi Don --
> 
> Thanks for the CMOS/CCD information.  That's what I
> suspected, and 
> that's what gives me pause about moving to digital. 
> By using n-1, n-
> 2 development times and a good exposure, we can with
> film capture 
> more tonal detail from high-contrast scenes and thus
> create a 
> greater dramatic impact. Or so it seems at first
> glance.  Perhaps I 
> just haven't read enough on how to handle
> high-contrast scenes with 
> a digital camera.  Any suggestions??
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> "D. Hill" 
> <hill14701@y...> wrote:
> > Darrell,
> > 
> > CMOS and CCD chips are more similar to slide film
> than
> > of black and white film, being as they have much
> less
> > latitude.  From basic camera controls in initial
> > capture, there is not a method to stretch the
> latitude
> > of the CCD.  
> > 
> > You can mimic the effects of n-1, n-2. etc., from
> > various controls in photoshop - but that defeats
> the
> > purpose of placing specific values or zones on
> site.
> > 
> > As the digital camera is just an imaging device,
> you
> > can apply zone system techniques for far less work
> in
> > photoshop.
> > 
> > My capture process:
> > 
> > 1. Read scene with handheld lightmeter, placing my
> > important value.  I have determined the optimal
> ISO of
> > my 10d is 80 with my materials.
> > 2. Capture in RAW mode.
> > 3. Transfer images to photoshop as 16 bit tiff.
> > 4. Convert image to greyscale.
> > 
> > At this point the specific zone placed will fall
> > exactly where I want it - without levels or curves
> > manipulation.  The process is quite simple, and
> saves
> > hours in photoshop.  I save this as my master
> file,
> > making any corrections then printing.
> >  
> > Write me directly if you would like to know my
> process
> > for determining the proper ISO for digital, as
> well as
> > constructing a zone ruler to see the latitude of
> your
> > imaging chip.
> > 
> > Don
> > 
> > 
> > --- darrelleifert <darrelleifert@y...> wrote:
> > > Hi Folks --
> > > 
> > > Forgive me if this is a *very* basic question
> that
> > > has been answered 
> > > before, but a web search hasn't turned up much
> > > useful information.  
> > > 
> > > The well-known advantage of using B&W film is
> the
> > > ability to expand 
> > > or contract developing times in order to obtain
> both
> > > shadow and 
> > > highlight detail in the finished print.  When
> using
> > > a digital camera 
> > > to make what will eventually become a "fine art"
> B&W
> > > print, is there 
> > > any known technique that mimics the N-1 or N-2
> film
> > > development 
> > > process?  Thanks!
> > > 
> > > -- Darrell
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> design software
> > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> 
> 


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

> Hi Folks --
>
> Forgive me if this is a *very* basic question that has been answered
> before, but a web search hasn't turned up much useful information.
>
> The well-known advantage of using B&W film is the ability to expand
> or contract developing times in order to obtain both shadow and
> highlight detail in the finished print.  When using a digital camera
> to make what will eventually become a "fine art" B&W print, is there
> any known technique that mimics the N-1 or N-2 film development
> process?  Thanks!
>
> -- Darrell

Hi Darrell,

You can not do tonal compression using digital sensors, but you can do
expansion in post processing.  But, note that the expansion does not give
you the same thing as you would get with film, as you will not have actual
intermediate values, which is true with any digital expansion.

That does not eliminate using some aspects of the Zone system though.  You
can meter your highlights and meter your shadows and set your zones so the
scene tonality range can (if possible) fall within your sensor's usable
range.  If your overall density range is outside the usable range of the
sensor, you must clip either the shadows or the highlights, but at least the
choice is yours if you meter this way, and metering this way means that if
it can fit, you can make it fit and not clip something you don't need to.
Don't worry about how it looks on the little LCD, as you can do tonal curve
adjustment to adjust the tonality to your liking.

Regards,

Austin

Hi Darrell,

> Hmmm, I think what I *really* meant to ask was whether a digital
> camera can mimic the ability of film to "compress" a high-contrast
> scene so that both shadow and highlight detail are evident in the
> final print.

No.  If the scene tonal range exceeds the capabilities of the sensor (on
either end), you will simply clip.

> Perhaps a better question would be whether the dynamic range of a
> digital camera is such that the curves and levels adjustments in
> Photoshop will be able to recover detail that at first glance
> seems "lost" in pure white or black.

That depends....if they are there, they are there, if they are not, no, you
can't recover them.  Lost data is simply lost data.  That is why I suggest
you meter for the shadows and highlights, and adjust your exposure so as to
make sure you are capturing the tonal range you want to capture, or if the
sensor can't, that you then can choose what to cut out.

Regards,

Austin

While I don't have the scientific data to back it up (and you might -- if 
so, please share) I'd tend to think that one could extract significantly 
more effective latitude by the bracketing and stacking technique discussed 
in this thread using a digital camera than one could ever get with 
film.  By taking multiple frames, each exposed to ensure that certain tonal 
ranges are well represented in the histogram, and then combining these in 
software, one is effectively doing what Ansel Adams could only dream of 
doing in his time.

Even with the best-exposed negative, no scanner currently made (short of a 
drum scanner -- maybe) is going to extract the full dynamic range.  One 
could use manual exposure settings on the scanner and resort to a similar 
bracketing technique, I suppose.  But then we're talking about bracketing 
and stacking again, only we've already limited ourselves to what was 
captured on film in one shot which we HOPE we got right.

When making a wet print, or the digital equivalent, dodging and burning is 
considered perfectly acceptable to keep the tones within the latitude of 
the output medium.  The bracketing and stacking technique to digital 
exposures is effectively doing the same thing at the time of capture and 
processing, and the great thing about it is that you have as much time as 
you can stand to spend in Photoshop to tweak the result to your liking.

But for me, the fact that I don't have to carry a bunch of variations on 
split ND filters around is enough of an improvement in quality of life 
right there.  I had a 1 degree spot meter before I had a digital SLR, but 
it's not like I threw the spot meter away when I went digital.  I think I 
use it a lot more effectively now than I did before.

--Greg

At 10:54 AM 9/10/2003 -0700, D. Hill wrote:

>Darrell,
>
>The one suggestion I have is to circumvent the digital
>camera.  An excellent film scanner will cost the same
>as a good digital body (Canon 10d or Nikon d100) - so
>if you are accustomed to film cameras, there is no
>reason to stop using them.  This will allow greater
>controls than is possible with the digital body alone
>- and you don't have to buy any additional lenses,
>equipment, etc.
>
>Don
>
>
>--- darrelleifert <darrelleifert@...> wrote:
> > Hi Don --
> >
> > Thanks for the CMOS/CCD information.  That's what I
> > suspected, and
> > that's what gives me pause about moving to digital.
> > By using n-1, n-
> > 2 development times and a good exposure, we can with
> > film capture
> > more tonal detail from high-contrast scenes and thus
> > create a
> > greater dramatic impact. Or so it seems at first
> > glance.  Perhaps I
> > just haven't read enough on how to handle
> > high-contrast scenes with
> > a digital camera.  Any suggestions??
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> > "D. Hill"
> > <hill14701@y...> wrote:
> > > Darrell,
> > >
> > > CMOS and CCD chips are more similar to slide film
> > than
> > > of black and white film, being as they have much
> > less
> > > latitude.  From basic camera controls in initial
> > > capture, there is not a method to stretch the
> > latitude
> > > of the CCD.
> > >
> > > You can mimic the effects of n-1, n-2. etc., from
> > > various controls in photoshop - but that defeats
> > the
> > > purpose of placing specific values or zones on
> > site.
> > >
> > > As the digital camera is just an imaging device,
> > you
> > > can apply zone system techniques for far less work
> > in
> > > photoshop.
> > >
> > > My capture process:
> > >
> > > 1. Read scene with handheld lightmeter, placing my
> > > important value.  I have determined the optimal
> > ISO of
> > > my 10d is 80 with my materials.
> > > 2. Capture in RAW mode.
> > > 3. Transfer images to photoshop as 16 bit tiff.
> > > 4. Convert image to greyscale.
> > >
> > > At this point the specific zone placed will fall
> > > exactly where I want it - without levels or curves
> > > manipulation.  The process is quite simple, and
> > saves
> > > hours in photoshop.  I save this as my master
> > file,
> > > making any corrections then printing.
> > >
> > > Write me directly if you would like to know my
> > process
> > > for determining the proper ISO for digital, as
> > well as
> > > constructing a zone ruler to see the latitude of
> > your
> > > imaging chip.
> > >
> > > Don
> > >
> > >
> > > --- darrelleifert <darrelleifert@y...> wrote:
> > > > Hi Folks --
> > > >
> > > > Forgive me if this is a *very* basic question
> > that
> > > > has been answered
> > > > before, but a web search hasn't turned up much
> > > > useful information.
> > > >
> > > > The well-known advantage of using B&W film is
> > the
> > > > ability to expand
> > > > or contract developing times in order to obtain
> > both
> > > > shadow and
> > > > highlight detail in the finished print.  When
> > using
> > > > a digital camera
> > > > to make what will eventually become a "fine art"
> > B&W
> > > > print, is there
> > > > any known technique that mimics the N-1 or N-2
> > film
> > > > development
> > > > process?  Thanks!
> > > >
> > > > -- Darrell
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> > design software
> > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
>http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and 
>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
>them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various 
>resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Don,

> CMOS and CCD chips are more similar to slide film than
> of black and white film, being as they have much less
> latitude.

Specifically, what latitude are you talking about?

> From basic camera controls in initial
> capture, there is not a method to stretch the latitude
> of the CCD.

Correct, and you can not compress the scene's range into that of the imaging
sensor.

> You can mimic the effects of n-1, n-2. etc., from
> various controls in photoshop

I disagree.  The idea of N-1 etc. development is to compress the image
density range to fit within that of the films (via both exposure and
development), and you can't do that with a digital sensor.  Data that is
beyond the capture range of the sensor is simply lost.

Regards,

Austin

Hi Greg,

> While I don't have the scientific data to back it up (and you might -- if
> so, please share) I'd tend to think that one could extract significantly
> more effective latitude by the bracketing and stacking technique
> discussed
> in this thread using a digital camera than one could ever get with
> film.

But...why couldn't you simply do the same thing with film?  Take multiple
exposures at different exposures, and scan them, and combine them in PS?

> Even with the best-exposed negative, no scanner currently made
> (short of a
> drum scanner -- maybe) is going to extract the full dynamic range.

But...that's simply not true.  You can extract the FULL density range (don't
confuse dynamic range with density range) of any B&W or color negative film
on a respectable film scanner.  SOME slide films may be at the limits of mid
range film scanners, but today's mid range film scanners are pretty good.

What film, specifically, do you think a decent scanner can't scan the full
density range of?

Regards,

Austin

on 9/10/2003 11:34 AM, DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com at
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 15:01:13 -0000
> From: "darrelleifert" <darrelleifert@...>
> Subject: Re: Can digital photography mimic the Zone system?
> 
> Hi Loring --
> 
> Hmmm, I think what I *really* meant to ask was whether a digital
> camera can mimic the ability of film to "compress" a high-contrast
> scene so that both shadow and highlight detail are evident in the
> final print.  If both shadow and highlight detail are beyond the
> dynamic range of the film, development time can be cut short in
> order to allow both to appear in the final print.  Photoshop can re-
> map the highlights, but what if the original digital exposure "blew
> out" the highlights because the photographer exposed for shadow
> detail?  Or conversely, what if the image is correctly exposed for
> highlight detail but significant shadow detail is blacked out?

Set your digital camera to save your photos in RAW mode. This will retain
all the information captured by the chip and adjust your "development" in
software when converting from the RAW format.

I don't know that this will equal shooting B&W film for exposure latitude,
but it should easily record more of the scene than slide film provided that
your camera is up to the task.
 
-Bruce

Visit my website at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~smthopr

Bruce,

> Set your digital camera to save your photos in RAW mode. This will retain
> all the information captured by the chip and adjust your "development" in
> software when converting from the RAW format.

No matter what you do, you can't contract the original image to fit within
the range of the sensor.  You can, of course, expand the image data to
occupy the entire N bit space...but, unlike film, you don't get the actual
intermediate tonal values.  Those are retained on film, but can not be with
a digital sensor.

> I don't know that this will equal shooting B&W film for exposure latitude,
> but it should easily record more of the scene than slide film
> provided that
> your camera is up to the task.

Raw mode does not effect what the camera records, and therefore doesn't
actually "record" more of the scene.  The camera ALWAYS takes the image in
raw mode.  The camera uses that same raw data to convert to what ever output
you want (apply setpoints, tonal curves, Bayer pattern reconciliation etc.).
What you can do with the raw data is possibly set better setpoints than the
camera chose for you.

Regards,

Austin

That can be done.  But, the registration problems are an issue.  It can make for tedious work.  However, multiple scans from a single piece of film where you change only the 'density' settings ( not any dimensional settings) is fairly straight forward.  That can allow you to get the absolute maximum from your single slide/neg.
 
TB


Austin Franklin <darkroom@...> wrote:
Hi Greg,

> While I don't have the scientific data to back it up (and you might -- if
> so, please share) I'd tend to think that one could extract significantly
> more effective latitude by the bracketing and stacking technique
> discussed
> in this thread using a digital camera than one could ever get with
> film.

But...why couldn't you simply do the same thing with film?  Take multiple
exposures at different exposures, and scan them, and combine them in PS?

> Even with the best-exposed negative, no scanner currently made
> (short of a
> drum scanner -- maybe) is going to extract the full dynamic range.

But...that's simply not true.  You can extract the FULL density range (don't
confuse dynamic range with density range) of any B&W or color negative film
on a respectable film scanner.  SOME slide films may be at the limits of mid
range film scanners, but today's mid range film scanners are pretty good.

What film, specifically, do you think a decent scanner can't scan the full
density range of?

Regards,

Austin


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That can be done.  But, the registration problems are an issue.  It can make for tedious work.  However, multiple scans from a single piece of film where you change only the 'density' settings ( not any dimensional settings) is fairly straight forward.  That can allow you to get the absolute maximum from your single slide/neg.
 
TB


Austin Franklin <darkroom@...> wrote:
Hi Greg,

> While I don't have the scientific data to back it up (and you might -- if
> so, please share) I'd tend to think that one could extract significantly
> more effective latitude by the bracketing and stacking technique
> discussed
> in this thread using a digital camera than one could ever get with
> film.

But...why couldn't you simply do the same thing with film?  Take multiple
exposures at different exposures, and scan them, and combine them in PS?

> Even with the best-exposed negative, no scanner currently made
> (short of a
> drum scanner -- maybe) is going to extract the full dynamic range.

But...that's simply not true.  You can extract the FULL density range (don't
confuse dynamic range with density range) of any B&W or color negative film
on a respectable film scanner.  SOME slide films may be at the limits of mid
range film scanners, but today's mid range film scanners are pretty good.

What film, specifically, do you think a decent scanner can't scan the full
density range of?

Regards,

Austin


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
 
Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One could do the same thing with film, but it would definitely cost more in 
film and development.  How many frames of film are you willing to take, 
develop, scan, clean up, align (because alignment in the scanner isn't 
perfect frame to frame) and THEN stack?  The same workflow would take less 
time when using digital capture because you avoid the development, 
scanning, dust clean-up, and most of the alignment pain (assuming you were 
using a halfway decent tripod).

One of the great things (for me -- your mileage may vary) about digital is 
not giving a second thought to the cost of film or development when I want 
to bracket something.  This applies not only to exposure bracketing but 
focus and DOF bracketing as well.  When I shot film, bracketing always 
involved hearing the sounds of cash registers in the back of my mind.  I 
did it, but I was conservative about it.  I am no longer conservative about 
bracketing at all.  (And, by the way, I have been known to stack focus- and 
DOF-bracketed images in Photoshop as well.)

I do have a film scanner (a Nikon LS-4000) and it does an incredible 
job.  But in my experience you have to take this very good scanner out of 
automatic mode and, essentially, bracket exposures in order to grab the 
full dynamic range out of a wide-latitude negative.  As I mentioned this is 
essentially the same technique as shooting multiple exposures digitally in 
the first place, only at this point you are limited to whatever the film 
captured at the time of shooting.  Anyway, in my own case I was shooting 
and scanning slide film (usually Provia) to minimize grain, and in that 
case the scanner in "auto" generally captures the full latitude in one 
scan.  In order to get effective latitude then I had to use split ND 
filters at shooting time.

So now I'm getting better results, I don't have to use split ND filters, I 
don't have grain, I don't pay for film, I don't spend all weekend 
developing and scanning it, and I don't have to deal with dust unless I've 
let the sensor get dirty.  Again, it's a huge improvement in quality of 
life as much as anything else.  I'm supposed to be enjoying myself taking 
pictures right?

At 02:40 PM 9/10/2003 -0400, Austin Franklin wrote:

>Hi Greg,
>
> > While I don't have the scientific data to back it up (and you might -- if
> > so, please share) I'd tend to think that one could extract significantly
> > more effective latitude by the bracketing and stacking technique
> > discussed
> > in this thread using a digital camera than one could ever get with
> > film.
>
>But...why couldn't you simply do the same thing with film?  Take multiple
>exposures at different exposures, and scan them, and combine them in PS?
>
> > Even with the best-exposed negative, no scanner currently made
> > (short of a
> > drum scanner -- maybe) is going to extract the full dynamic range.
>
>But...that's simply not true.  You can extract the FULL density range (don't
>confuse dynamic range with density range) of any B&W or color negative film
>on a respectable film scanner.  SOME slide films may be at the limits of mid
>range film scanners, but today's mid range film scanners are pretty good.
>
>What film, specifically, do you think a decent scanner can't scan the full
>density range of?
>
>Regards,
>
>Austin

Hi Don --

Good suggestion, but I'm looking at spending some time overseas, and 
would love to do some landscape and architectural work in my spare 
time.  A digital camera means one less thing to pack ...

Cheers,
Darrell

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "D. Hill" 
<hill14701@y...> wrote:

> Darrell,
> 
> The one suggestion I have is to circumvent the digital
> camera.  An excellent film scanner will cost the same
> as a good digital body (Canon 10d or Nikon d100) - so
> if you are accustomed to film cameras, there is no
> reason to stop using them.  This will allow greater
> controls than is possible with the digital body alone
> - and you don't have to buy any additional lenses,
> equipment, etc.
> 
> Don
> 
> 
> --- darrelleifert <darrelleifert@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Don --
> > 
> > Thanks for the CMOS/CCD information.  That's what I
> > suspected, and 
> > that's what gives me pause about moving to digital. 
> > By using n-1, n-
> > 2 development times and a good exposure, we can with
> > film capture 
> > more tonal detail from high-contrast scenes and thus
> > create a 
> > greater dramatic impact. Or so it seems at first
> > glance.  Perhaps I 
> > just haven't read enough on how to handle
> > high-contrast scenes with 
> > a digital camera.  Any suggestions??
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> > "D. Hill" 
> > <hill14701@y...> wrote:
> > > Darrell,
> > > 
> > > CMOS and CCD chips are more similar to slide film
> > than
> > > of black and white film, being as they have much
> > less
> > > latitude.  From basic camera controls in initial
> > > capture, there is not a method to stretch the
> > latitude
> > > of the CCD.  
> > > 
> > > You can mimic the effects of n-1, n-2. etc., from
> > > various controls in photoshop - but that defeats
> > the
> > > purpose of placing specific values or zones on
> > site.
> > > 
> > > As the digital camera is just an imaging device,
> > you
> > > can apply zone system techniques for far less work
> > in
> > > photoshop.
> > > 
> > > My capture process:
> > > 
> > > 1. Read scene with handheld lightmeter, placing my
> > > important value.  I have determined the optimal
> > ISO of
> > > my 10d is 80 with my materials.
> > > 2. Capture in RAW mode.
> > > 3. Transfer images to photoshop as 16 bit tiff.
> > > 4. Convert image to greyscale.
> > > 
> > > At this point the specific zone placed will fall
> > > exactly where I want it - without levels or curves
> > > manipulation.  The process is quite simple, and
> > saves
> > > hours in photoshop.  I save this as my master
> > file,
> > > making any corrections then printing.
> > >  
> > > Write me directly if you would like to know my
> > process
> > > for determining the proper ISO for digital, as
> > well as
> > > constructing a zone ruler to see the latitude of
> > your
> > > imaging chip.
> > > 
> > > Don
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- darrelleifert <darrelleifert@y...> wrote:
> > > > Hi Folks --
> > > > 
> > > > Forgive me if this is a *very* basic question
> > that
> > > > has been answered 
> > > > before, but a web search hasn't turned up much
> > > > useful information.  
> > > > 
> > > > The well-known advantage of using B&W film is
> > the
> > > > ability to expand 
> > > > or contract developing times in order to obtain
> > both
> > > > shadow and 
> > > > highlight detail in the finished print.  When
> > using
> > > > a digital camera 
> > > > to make what will eventually become a "fine art"
> > B&W
> > > > print, is there 
> > > > any known technique that mimics the N-1 or N-2
> > film
> > > > development 
> > > > process?  Thanks!
> > > > 
> > > > -- Darrell
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> > design software
> > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

I've had a few responses about my method of
determining effective ISO for the digital realm - so
here goes:

This testing is very similar to that done with
conventional photographic materials.  I use a
hand-held meter, even toned card (white or grey), and
a zone dial (the sticker from calumet that attaches to
the pentax spotmeters).

To determine effective ISO of the camera, read your
cameras manual for the default ISO setting, and set
your camera as such.  Most digital cameras default at
100, but still check.

Use a tripod and fill the viewfinder with the white
card - I typically will make sure that the light is
even across the card, and the sun is at a 45 degree
angle to the card itself.  At this point, set the
focus at infinity.  

Meter the card, and do a series of Zone V exposures. 
I shoot a series in 1/3 increments from 1 stop below
to one stop over ASA 100.  This gives me a set of
seven Zone V values from ASA 50 - 200.

At this point, I convert all images to 16 bit
greyscale files in photoshop as stated in my previous
post.  Using the eyedropper tool, I choose the image
that is closest in value to 50% (zone V value).  

If you have taken notes, you should be able to line up
what image is the correct ISO for your equipment.  My
equipment sets my ISO as 80 - but most likely your
results will vary from mine. 

This is a very simple and quick method in determining
ISO - and is extremely helpful when you want to place
a specific zone for imaging.  As I stated before, this
does not allow for any processing functions of the
zone system (such as n-1, n+2, etc.) but does allow
specific placement of the important values.

Good luck,
Don

__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

Speaking of things zone, a quick and dirty that Fred Picker used to suggest
is to determine the most important highlight in the picture (excluding
specular highlights and the like) and set that highlight at zone VIII; Then
let the others fall where they may. His explanation was you can't get back a
blown highlight and the other values would generally take care of
themselves. If conditions warranted an extra at n-1 or n-2 might be shot as
well. I haven't tried that approach with my Minolta 7i (obviously without
the contractions) but its not that hard to use manually and spotmeter the
scene. I did use it a lot when I was shooting 4 X 5s and 120 6 X 7s  with
generally good results.

Roger
Roger L Sopher
rlsopher@...
http:\\deCorrales.com

  -----Original Message-----
  From: D. Hill [mailto:hill14701@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 3:45 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Specific Zone Placement


  I've had a few responses about my method of
  determining effective ISO for the digital realm - so
  here goes:

  This testing is very similar to that done with
  conventional photographic materials.  I use a
  hand-held meter, even toned card (white or grey), and
  a zone dial (the sticker from calumet that attaches to
  the pentax spotmeters).

  To determine effective ISO of the camera, read your
  cameras manual for the default ISO setting, and set
  your camera as such.  Most digital cameras default at
  100, but still check.

  Use a tripod and fill the viewfinder with the white
  card - I typically will make sure that the light is
  even across the card, and the sun is at a 45 degree
  angle to the card itself.  At this point, set the
  focus at infinity.

  Meter the card, and do a series of Zone V exposures.
  I shoot a series in 1/3 increments from 1 stop below
  to one stop over ASA 100.  This gives me a set of
  seven Zone V values from ASA 50 - 200.

  At this point, I convert all images to 16 bit
  greyscale files in photoshop as stated in my previous
  post.  Using the eyedropper tool, I choose the image
  that is closest in value to 50% (zone V value).

  If you have taken notes, you should be able to line up
  what image is the correct ISO for your equipment.  My
  equipment sets my ISO as 80 - but most likely your
  results will vary from mine.

  This is a very simple and quick method in determining
  ISO - and is extremely helpful when you want to place
  a specific zone for imaging.  As I stated before, this
  does not allow for any processing functions of the
  zone system (such as n-1, n+2, etc.) but does allow
  specific placement of the important values.

  Good luck,
  Don

  __________________________________
  Do you Yahoo!?
  Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
  http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave.
Don, I am really interested in your zone ruler construction and your way of
determining the proper ISO for digital. Thanks in advance for counting me
in.
Jean


-- 
jean.verrept@...



on 10/09/2003 17:01, D. Hill at hill14701@... wrote:

Darrell,



Write me directly if you would like to know my process
for determining the proper ISO for digital, as well as
constructing a zone ruler to see the latitude of your
imaging chip.

Don


> 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just had a meeting with one of my web-clients who is a distributor for
Epson products. They could confirm that a new wide-format desktop
printer is on the way. It will have 8 inks to contain Matte and Photo
black simultaneously. Price is rumored to be around $2000-2500. They
also mentioned that Epson would release some new type of ink.

Keep in mind that this information might be inaccurate. I guess there
will be more news soon since Epson is leaking this info to their
distributors.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Any indication as to size?  16x20 would make sense given the size gap 
between the 2200 and the 7600.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> I just had a meeting with one of my web-clients who is a 
distributor for
> Epson products. They could confirm that a new wide-format desktop
> printer is on the way. It will have 8 inks to contain Matte and 
Photo
> black simultaneously. Price is rumored to be around $2000-2500. They
> also mentioned that Epson would release some new type of ink.
> 
> Keep in mind that this information might be inaccurate. I guess 
there

> will be more news soon since Epson is leaking this info to their
> distributors.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

I have held off buying a 2200 lately, because I sensed from all of the internet chatter 
there was something new coming (perhaps an updated 3000) that would have a B&W 
solution (e.g. 8 inks or whatever).

I know Vincent on http://www.photo-i.co.uk/ was hinting there was an upcoming 
announcement on Sept 10 and now he is delaying it to the end of Sept.  However, he 
is now denying it has anything to do with an Epson product.  Initially, he hinted that it 
was Epson related.

As much as I want to believe this rumor has some truth, I would have thought there 
would have been more concrete rumors out there.  In fact, before the 2200 came to 
American there was advanced warning from Japan that a 7 ink printer was coming out 
from the http://www.i-love-epson.co.jp/ site.

Does anyone have any more concrete information?  Is anyone willing to violate their 
NDA with Epson?   The other possibility is that Canon may have a more serious printer 
that will be wide format and have some B&W solution with archival ink.

Jean,

Sorry about the delay, school and pressures of
mounting 3 shows are a bit taxing.

I've detailed the bulk of my ISO testing in this post
to the list:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/34807

When you evaluate the proper ISO, the zone ruler is
pretty quick.

I photograph the front step of my house (an even toned
subjet with texture) when the light is even across the
field of view.

I make a series of 11 exposures by placing the value
from my light meter from zones 0 - 10.  

I convert this series of files to 16 bit greyscale in
photoshop, and save the image as its zone placement
for the file name.

If you use photoshop 6 or 7, a quick method to making
a zone ruler is to use the "contact sheet" automate
function.  I make sure that the rows and colums will
fit all 10 images on 8x10.  After the contact sheet
prints, it will be the complete zone ruler. 

Hope this helps,
Don


--- jean verrept <jean.verrept@...>
wrote:
> Ave.
> Don, I am really interested in your zone ruler
> construction and your way of
> determining the proper ISO for digital. Thanks in
> advance for counting me
> in.
> Jean
> 
> 
> -- 
> jean.verrept@...
> 
> 
> 
> on 10/09/2003 17:01, D. Hill at hill14701@...
> wrote:
> 
> Darrell,
> 
> 
> 
> Write me directly if you would like to know my
> process
> for determining the proper ISO for digital, as well
> as
> constructing a zone ruler to see the latitude of
> your
> imaging chip.
> 
> Don
> 
> 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 


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