Digital BW, The Print

Has anyone compared these two devices in terms of accuracy (specifically luminance data)? A printing house I'm considering going with for large prints made two test prints for me that included a 21-step grayscale image. Neither was close to linear, according to my Spyder3 Print Spectro. When I pointed this out, they claimed my device wasn't accurate and that their profiles (made using the Eye One Pro) are linear. But they won't measure my test strips with their Eye One Pro or share their linearizing data. Obviously, I'm skeptical, but I'm curious if there's data available on how these devices compare.

Mark

When I measured the 24 patches of a GretagMacbeth ColorChecker with both the devices you mention (which includes a six step gray ramp) and compare the Lab values from each, the average difference is less than one delta-e, meaning visually indistinguishable. So I would not expect it to be the device that's the issue, unless one of the two devices is faulty. One other possible issue is the difference between "machine linear" (gamma 1.0) and "human linear" (closer  to gamma 2.2).

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Imaging Color Solutions
Datacolor inc. 
cdtobie@...
www.datacolor.com

On Apr 5, 2013, at 8:10 PM, "mccarvill" <mccarvill@...> wrote:

> Has anyone compared these two devices in terms of accuracy (specifically luminance data)? A printing house I'm considering going with for large prints made two test prints for me that included a 21-step grayscale image. Neither was close to linear, according to my Spyder3 Print Spectro. When I pointed this out, they claimed my device wasn't accurate and that their profiles (made using the Eye One Pro) are linear. But they won't measure my test strips with their Eye One Pro or share their linearizing data. Obviously, I'm skeptical, but I'm curious if there's data available on how these devices compare.
> 
> Mark 
> 
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Leaving aside entirely the issue of comparative accuracy, the response from
the printing house suggests you'll have a contentious future together. Hope
it's worth the trouble.

Pete


On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 7:10 PM, mccarvill <mccarvill@...> wrote:

> Has anyone compared these two devices in terms of accuracy (specifically
> luminance data)? A printing house I'm considering going with for large
> prints made two test prints for me that included a 21-step grayscale image.
> Neither was close to linear, according to my Spyder3 Print Spectro. When I
> pointed this out, they claimed my device wasn't accurate and that their
> profiles (made using the Eye One Pro) are linear. But they won't measure my
> test strips with their Eye One Pro or share their linearizing data.
> Obviously, I'm skeptical, but I'm curious if there's data available on how
> these devices compare.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
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> and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND
> �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
>  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR
> THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yeah,  find a different place to print.  Having issues isn't a problem, but
their reaction to the situation is one.


On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Pete Bergstrom <petebergstrom@...>wrote:

> Leaving aside entirely the issue of comparative accuracy, the response from
> the printing house suggests you'll have a contentious future together. Hope
> it's worth the trouble.
>
> Pete
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 7:10 PM, mccarvill <mccarvill@stepwise.ca> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone compared these two devices in terms of accuracy (specifically
> > luminance data)? A printing house I'm considering going with for large
> > prints made two test prints for me that included a 21-step grayscale
> image.
> > Neither was close to linear, according to my Spyder3 Print Spectro. When
> I
> > pointed this out, they claimed my device wasn't accurate and that their
> > profiles (made using the Eye One Pro) are linear. But they won't measure
> my
> > test strips with their Eye One Pro or share their linearizing data.
> > Obviously, I'm skeptical, but I'm curious if there's data available on
> how
> > these devices compare.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources
> as
> > they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
> same
> > page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> > and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND
> > �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> >  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR
> > THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO
> > GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO
> > GROUP.
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND
> �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
>  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR
> THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David - Thanks very much for doing this test. I appreciate it. To your point about possible faulty devices, I measured a Kodak Q-60 color target with my Spyder3 Print spectro and my readings closely matched the Kodak data from their FTP site. The Spyder3 Print was off an average of -.6, so I went back and adjusted my measurements of the print house's targets by the error factor and they still weren't linear. 

Peter and Pete – Agreed. Mistakes happen, but what counts is how they react. Wouldn't they want to know their profiles weren't linear, so they could fix them for all of their customers? In any case, they've lost a customer. 

Mark 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pdesmidt tds.net" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:

>
> Yeah,  find a different place to print.  Having issues isn't a problem, but
> their reaction to the situation is one.
> 
> 
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Pete Bergstrom <petebergstrom@...>wrote:
> 
> > Leaving aside entirely the issue of comparative accuracy, the response from
> > the printing house suggests you'll have a contentious future together. Hope
> > it's worth the trouble.
> >
> > Pete
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 7:10 PM, mccarvill <mccarvill@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Has anyone compared these two devices in terms of accuracy (specifically
> > > luminance data)? A printing house I'm considering going with for large
> > > prints made two test prints for me that included a 21-step grayscale
> > image.
> > > Neither was close to linear, according to my Spyder3 Print Spectro. When
> > I
> > > pointed this out, they claimed my device wasn't accurate and that their
> > > profiles (made using the Eye One Pro) are linear. But they won't measure
> > my
> > > test strips with their Eye One Pro or share their linearizing data.
> > > Obviously, I'm skeptical, but I'm curious if there's data available on
> > how
> > > these devices compare.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources
> > as
> > > they are often being updated.
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
> > same
> > > page.
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> > keep
> > > them short.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> > > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > > membership without notice.
> > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> > > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> > > the membership.
> > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> > > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> > > section:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > >
> > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> > > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> > >  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> > > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> > OR
> > > THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> > > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> > > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO
> > > GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO
> > > GROUP.
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> > page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> >  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR
> > THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> > GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> > GROUP.
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>