Mike,
I checked all of the points , traces, solders, ICs / sockets, PSU voltages on every TKC side.
None. Neither was there any temperature raise.
What to do?
Perhaps I could go back to TSBs, replacing also the rest of mylar caps (with WIMA ones)... but don't believe they are broken...
Waiting for further steps, I have a question.
Could the problem be in the TRG or KBCs, but not forgetting the distribution of the problem over the keyboard?
>
> 1.)First, check all of the rails on your TKC board like you did with the TSB1 and TSB2 boards. Check all of the chips with your finger for high heat which would indicate a malfunctioning chip. Check to make sure that connections aren't broken.
>
> 2.) CHECK ALL of your solder joints with a magnifying glass and bright light to make sure that there isn't any splattering or rogue solder joints that would touch neighboring parts or connections. Check to make sure that you soldered all of the joints. Check to make sure that all chips are properly set in their sockets. There are a few chips that are a tight squeeze on the TKC board and you should pay close attention to them.
>
> 3.) Check to make sure that you put all of the right chips in the right places and that their orientation is correct.
>
> 4.) Repeat steps 1-3 until you find an error.
>
> Was your aftertouch or initial touch ever working properly? Going into further technical details here will involve creating a truth table. If I had to make a guess, I think that you might have some sort of problem with one of your octave lines like B1, B2, B3, through the TKC board because you messed up the install of the new CMOS.
>
> Let me know how things work out.
>
> -Mike
>
> --- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, Fernando Zarone <fernandozarone@...> wrote:
> >
> > Done, Mike, the results:
> > 1) All of the voltages are correct and in the right terminals. Ground measures about 3 mV (red to the black wire, black to the ground rail of the board cage). But I have not a Fluke, a Lafayette, don't know if it is a DVM imprecision.
> > 2) Ditto. All of the supply pins are feeded, incld the +-15 at the 4558s.
> > 3) OK. the three rails are interconnected at all of the three boards.
> >
> > Waiting for further steps...
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > Il giorno 21/apr/2011, alle ore 22.28, Mike ha scritto:
> >
> > > Ok. Now I understand your problem. There's two steps that you need to complete before we can proceed further. One involves checking voltage on just about everything on the TSB1 and TSB2 and the other involves checking continuity between some connections even though I think that your problem is probably on the TKC board. We'll get to the TKC board on the next post but I need to rule out the TSB1 and TSB2 boards.
> > >
> > > 1.) Verify that there is power going to each of the 4051 IC's on the TSB1 and TSB2 boards. Check the +15, -15, +8.5, -6.5 AND GROUND lines on the TSB1 and TSB2.
> > >
> > > 2.) Verify that there is power present on the supply pins of each 4051. You should see +8.5 and -6.5 on pins 16 and 8 of the 4051 respectively
> > >
> > > 3.) Verify that NS1(41), NS2(42), and NS3(43) are connected to N1(90), N2(91), and N3(93) via a continuity check from the TKC board to the TSB1 and TSB2 boards. Also verify that your S lines are working in the same manner from the TKC board to the TSB1 and TSB2 boards.
> > >
> > > The 4051 is a one of 8 switch where six notes are summed at the pin 3 output. The N' lines are binary selectors (+ value at A=1, B=2, C=4) labeled A, B, C, on the schematic and the INH lines inhibit or enable the chip. Pin 7 should be grounded if I remember correctly to get the thing to work properly too but I don't remember why. For example, to select C#1 on IC1 of TSB1, the INH should swing low via S11(42) and N1, N2, N3 or A, B,C should be low to select input 0X on the 4051. To select E1 (input X4) INH at IC1 should go low and C or N3 should go high and all other N lines low.
> > >
> > > -Mike
> > >
> > > --- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, Fernando Zarone <fernandozarone@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately,
> > > > I have not been able to detect any faulty wire yet.
> > > > But something that could be important was evident: I checked the pin 6 (inhibit/enable) in the 4051s in the TSBs. When pressing the corresponding keys in the half octave, they pass from the OFF state (+8,5 V) to the ON (-6,5), staying steady until a new key from another (half) octave is pressed. Well, in the TSB1 all of the pin 6 stay on the OFF state (+8,5) whatever key is pressed on the keyboard. In the TSB2, the IC 1 does not work as well, while IC 2,3,4,5 are OK.
> > > > While the outputs (pin 3) give a raising voltage related to the corresponding (half) octave key pressure ONLY in the last (and only working) octave ICs: IC 4 and 5 of TSB2.
> > > > That's all.
> > > >
> > > > Can this help? At least, could a specific wire problem cause all of these faults? I feel a little worried. Is this the end of my baby?
> > > > The great techs are so far from here, Kent, isn't it? :-)
> > > > And my skilled friends in Italy have their own job
> > > >
> > > > Waiting for your VERY precious help (or for an Easter miracle)
> > > >
> > > > F
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Il giorno 21/apr/2011, alle ore 12.37, Andrew Kirkby ha scritto:
> > > >
> > > > > Fernando,
> > > > >
> > > > > Check that you have the right supply voltages at the points at the
> > > > > board (where you installed the decoupling caps) and check continuity
> > > > > from point to point for each wire attached to those boards (Fluke on
> > > > > "beep" mode :P )
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me know how you go.
> > > > >
> > > > > AK
> > > > > On 21/04/2011, at 8:30 PM, Fernando Zarone wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Probably, it could be.
> > > > > > But I checked the solder points, refreshed them... seem ok.
> > > > > > Moreover: could a broken wire "lock" the output (pin 3) of 4051s ?
> > > > > > shouldn't it be an internal processing, between the inputs (other IC
> > > > > > pins) and pin 3?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Il giorno 21/apr/2011, alle ore 11.32, Quazimodo ha scritto:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> If you've been working on the TSB and/or TKC boards then I would
> > > > > >> suspect broken wires...!?!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> --- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, Fernando Zarone
> > > > > >> <fernandozarone@> wrote:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Thank you Mike.
> > > > > >>> Some progress has been done.
> > > > > >>> I replaced all of the 1uF electro caps and all of the tantalium
> > > > > >>> ones (the latter with polystyrene ones) in the TSB1 and 2.
> > > > > >>> Decoupling caps were added to all of the CMOS ICs.
> > > > > >>> The problem is still there: last octave (from C5# to C6) exhibit a
> > > > > >>> working AT, the others no.
> > > > > >>> News: I checked all of the voltages from the AT sensors of the
> > > > > >>> keys, all of them are present at the single input pins of the
> > > > > >>> 4051's corresponding to the single keys, I mean the stronger I
> > > > > >>> press the key, the higher the voltage comes out, e.g. at the pin 2
> > > > > >>> of IC5 /TSB2 when I press C6, pin 5 when B5 etc. This means that
> > > > > >>> the problem is not before the 4051s. When I check at the sum
> > > > > >>> terminal (pin 3 of the 4051s) , the voltage is OK in the last 2
> > > > > >>> (IC 4 and 5 of TSB2), corresponding to the WORKING last octave)
> > > > > >>> but it's missing at the other IC's pins 3, as expected.
> > > > > >>> I thought: the ICs are faulty. No, in that in the TSB2 I swapped
> > > > > >>> IC 3 with the IC5 (working): the same - last octave keys / IC4 and
> > > > > >>> IC5 = AT OK, the others no. This means that it cannot be blamed to
> > > > > >>> faulty ICs!
> > > > > >>> I would like to understand whether the fault is in both TSBs
> > > > > >>> (except at the level of the last two ICs of TSB2 - not that
> > > > > >>> likely...) or somewhere outside, locking these voltages in both
> > > > > >>> boards...
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> I think this is an important clue.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Il giorno 20/apr/2011, alle ore 23.34, Mike ha scritto:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> I don't understand your question and can't help you until you
> > > > > >>>> tell me which pins you checked. What pin on the 4051 on the TSB
> > > > > >>>> boards did you check? I wouldn't even bother trying to
> > > > > >>>> troubleshoot the aftertouch and velocity unless it was working OK
> > > > > >>>> before you replaced the 1uf Caps on the TSB1 &TSB2 boards.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> It could be a lot of things. I would start by checking Pin 3 of
> > > > > >>>> the 4051 on the TSB1 & TSB2 boards. Each 4051 on the TSB1 & TSB2
> > > > > >>>> boards is responsible for the the aftertouch and velocity for a
> > > > > >>>> group of notes on the keyboard. Pin three of each 4051 will sum
> > > > > >>>> the output of whatever notes are playing that the 4051 is
> > > > > >>>> responsible for. Try playing one note at a time corresponding to
> > > > > >>>> each of the 4051's and press down to engage the aftertouch. You
> > > > > >>>> will see the aftertouch voltage for the corresponding note if the
> > > > > >>>> 4051 is working properly and the N1, N2, N3 lines are working
> > > > > >>>> properly for the entire keyboard.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> -Mike
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> --- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, Fernando Zarone
> > > > > >>>> <fernandozarone@> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> I replaced ALL of the ICs in the KAS, TKC, SH and ALL of the
> > > > > >>>>> electrolytic 1uF caps in TSBs. Going to replace the tantalium
> > > > > >>>>> with polystyrene ones.
> > > > > >>>>> The Aftertouch and Initial touch only work in the last octave
> > > > > >>>>> from C5# to C6 . Backwards from C5 to C1, nothing.
> > > > > >>>>> On the 4051 pins after the key pressure the relative tension
> > > > > >>>>> raises from 0 - -0,20 to 6 and more, so it should not be a
> > > > > >>>>> matter of keyboard sensors.
> > > > > >>>>> Could you please indicate how and where to check, considering
> > > > > >>>>> that it seems to be a "global" problem. Any specific test? Which
> > > > > >>>>> boards could be involved?
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Any help strongly appreciated...
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> F
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Caro Max,
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> dopo una delle ultime mie performances (sto sostituendo tutti i
> > > > > >>>>>> capacitors e ICs e tirando fuori schede) l'AT e initial touch,
> > > > > >>>>>> con tutte le loro funzioni di pilotaggio, non vanno per nulla
> > > > > >>>>>> se non nell'ultima ottava, da C5# a C6.
> > > > > >>>>>> da C5 in gi�, nulla. Inoltre se senti, per es. i Brass, mi
> > > > > >>>>>> sembra di non sentire l'attack lento. Insomma, ci risiamo.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Mi dai qualche idea sulle tensioni da verificare? devo ancora
> > > > > >>>>>> sostituire molti tantalio (con poliestere) nelle TSB, ma non
> > > > > >>>>>> credo che la causa siano loro. Si rompevano tutti, in entrambi
> > > > > >>>>>> i canali? deve essere a monte il problema! Le tensioni dell'AT
> > > > > >>>>>> dai tasti arrivano ai 4051, da -0,20 a 6V e pi� sui piedini, il
> > > > > >>>>>> che significa che ... Che significa???
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Aiutami, Max, altrimenti spender� una cifra per spedirla da RL
> > > > > >>>>>> in England da Mr CS80 per farla rimettere a nuovo!
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Grazie, so che lo farai...
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> PS mica sei un tecnico? se no te la mandavo subito :-))
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
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> > > > > >>>>>
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> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew Kirkby
> > > > > (e) kirkbyte@
> > > > > (m) 0416 000 070
> > > > >
> > > > >
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