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From: "Chris Dale unobtainiumkeys@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup]" <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com>
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 11:12 PM
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Faces in our setting sun
I'm sure Marcus still makes Mellotrons, but I'm not sure what brand of tape it is.Not sure who makes tape these days, but it would be good if someone still made it, and stuck with it.I agree that all masters should be digitized sooner rather than later.Vinyl has been back for a while, so who knows? I guess there is always hope.Music listening is a serious pleasure for me and I never listen to Mp3 quality because my ears can't stand the tinniness.The ear buds also cause cumulative hearing loss - far worse than headphonesI prefer vinyl and tape as well and also think the 60's and 70's were a golden age for quality production and quality music.As the artistic music standards plummeted in favour of commercialism, and hundreds of record companies became bought out, absorbed and merged into the hegemenous 'big 6' by 1979, I don't think anyone would argue the 80's, 90's and 00's have a better, more diverse output than the 50's, 60's and 70's.On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 8:09 PM, Mark Pring markpringnz@yahoo.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:That is a shame, I've not heard of the nonentities you mentioned and have so far resisted the temptation to find out more about them. There don't seem to be many companies making magnetic tape now, I am pretty sure EMI don't and that Martin is relying on a hopefully enormous stockpile of the stuff. Does Marcus still build any mellotrons and does he use EMI tape? I assume most producers don't use tape now. Presumably the only thing to do with the masters now is to digitally record them before they are lost.At my age I have a soft spot for tape and vinyl and believe that the 1960's to eraly 70's were a golden age for recording quality, in my opinion you just can't beat a well recorded tape or vinyl record played through a good quality hi-fi. Having said that I listen to most music on my ipod because I can carry almost all my record collection around with me. In the 1950's that would have been science fiction.Mark
From: "Chris Dale unobtainiumkeys@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup]" <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com>
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 25 November 2015 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Faces in our setting sun
Mellotrons mainly use EMI tape which is resistant to the problem, but yes there are mould problems with tapes and the wood in Mellotrons too. It depends how long they're left like that in humid conditions.Other tape brands like Ampex are more susceptible, because the Ampex company changed the chemical formulation - although the tape itself was the of highest recording quality at the time, which is why so many people used it.This is a big problem for the major labels who keep recording tape masters stored away. Did you know that thousands of master tapes of famous classic bands are rotting away like this as we speak, while the executives spend the tape archive budgets on new cars and blow jobs for people like Robin Thicke, Pharrell Williams and other non-entities.Re-mastered sometimes translates to 'we can't play the original masters, so we'll use a vinyl record instead'.50% of all films and movies ever made have been lost as well. It's a shame.On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 5:03 PM, Mark Pring markpringnz@yahoo.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:8% seems extortionate to me. I've been reading up about tape mold, apparently lives on the binding polymer of the tape worse if tapes stored in humid conditions, has anyone ever found it on mellotron tapes inside a stored machine?Mark
From: "Chris Dale unobtainiumkeys@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup]" <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com>
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 25 November 2015 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Faces in our setting sun
Hi Chris, Very interesting project! I hope it will succeed.
I’m not that familiar with gofundme.com. How does that work, is there an end date for the fundraiser? I could not see one. I see it’s already running for three months. From the looks of it, it could use some more publicity. Have you posted on all the usual forums and sites like muffwiggler.com, matrixsynth, etc?
Kind regards,
BenHi Ben,Thanks. To answer your question about gofundme - it's the same as Kickstarter and IndieGogo except there is no set end date. I figured this was the one to use because the others rush you into raising full funding within in a two month period or the project doesn't get funded at all. This means your goal could be $1000 and if you raise $980 by the end you don't get any of it. Your time is all wasted. So GoFundMe is the best one to use since support tends to trickle in over time. But they take 8% of every donation.I think most of these crowdfunding websites are a scam by the way. They don't promote you at all. You have to do all your own promotion, and they take commissions from the donations. They only get behind you if they see hundreds of thousands of people are donating (because they get a percentage of that). Sadly some really odious people are behind these sites, and I wouldn't recommend using any of them.It's not all bad though. I've been receiving some offline donations from people who don't want their money going to the crowdfunding websites.And as a backup I've been looking into grants, and doing the paperwork - which is taking up much of my time these days.So no, I haven't promoted to the sites you've mentioned yet.We have an old MCI JH-24 track machine reconditioned and ready for the master tapes, and a couple of baking ovens ready to go. It's the studio time that's going to be expensive.The project will succeed on some level. There's surprising demand for the sounds. The question is how far we get.There's tape set work masters, masters with unedited stuff, a special church organ Wakeman recorded, requested stufffor Led Zeppelin, sounds for a Pepperidge Farm/Air Shield funded prototype etc.It would be a shame to lose any of this stuff..On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Ben Stuyts ben@stuyts.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Hi Chris,
Very interesting project! I hope it will succeed.
I’m not that familiar with gofundme.com. How does that work, is there an end date for the fundraiser? I could not see one. I see it’s already running for three months. From the looks of it, it could use some more publicity. Have you posted on all the usual forums and sites like muffwiggler.com, matrixsynth, etc?
Kind regards,
Ben
> On 24 Nov 2015, at 08:52, Chris Dale unobtainiumkeys@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
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> Mark - Thanks I appreciate your support. Yes, it's going to be time consuming and expensive.
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> I'm guessing you're referring to the Birotron choir that Martin at Streetly edited.
> Yes, that's a great sound.
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> That's a different sound source than the 8 tracks. That comes from a 1/4" master tape that Streetly held on to which came from the set of master tapes in storage. The Birotronics director sent all the tapes to Streetly briefly in the early 2000's but it was discovered they all needed baking, so nothing was ever done with them.
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> I think that might be one of four different choir sounds.
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> There's also a small sound library for the 'Pepperidge Farm' funded Birotron model in the 80's that was also never heard or released.
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> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Mark Pring markpringnz@yahoo.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
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> Thanks Chris, that was even more fascinating! I quite like the Birotron choir sounds on M-tron Pro, of course I've never heard the real thing. I hope you are successful with your project, I assume from what you have said so far that at worst you will manage the sampling. I can only imagine how much time money and patience one will need to get a proper working Birotron with new tapes. Please keep us all informed of your progress.
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> Cheers
>
> Mark
>
> From: "Chris Dale unobtainiumkeys@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup]" <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com>
> To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 24 November 2015 6:57 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Faces in our setting sun
>
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> "Hi Chris,
>
> That was fascinating. My knowledge of the sound of the Birotron is limited to the samples in M-tron pro. Did you consider approaching GForce software? It sounds like the sort of thing they would be interested in, perhaps releasing it as an extension pack. I also wondered if a crowdfunded approach to releasing the samples might work better as well. Good luck. Mark"
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> Hi Mark,
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> Thanks for your advice.
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> I have considered approaching G Force, and would be willing to work with them or any other company in doing a professional job of this. But in the case of G Force, there's a serious legal issue of the Birotron owner not being compensated for the samples, and not being told about his Birotron being sampled - a potential ugly mess, which I have no interest in becoming involved with, considering he's somewhat wealthy and/or still has many wealthy and powerful friends. So if I were involved with them, there would probably have to be a contract legally isolating me from that incident, including any culpability from them and any other companies involved in the illegalities. I'm happy to work with anyone, but whomever it is, it's going to have to be legitimate all the way.
>
> Regardless of that situation, the Birotron samples in MTron and MTron Pro are really for completists. I'm sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but they do not resemble a Birotron at all, because the 8 track tapes were already worn out, and they were sampled at the wrong speeds.
> And I'm not saying this to garner interest in my own project.
>
> There's a 10 turn pitch knob on the Birotron (based upon the Double Mellotron pitch knob - you can hear the sped up effect on Topographic Oceans) that allows for Birotron sounds to be set at different speeds, and played back at the speeds they were originally recorded at, and I don't think the guys really knew what they were doing. There's also missing notes that were digitally 'created'. I've had experience with 3 different Birotrons and sections from 3 different tape sets to know this.
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> To be fair, in their defense, they had no 'authorized' sources to help them, and no real information about the sounds or the instrument. This was back in 1999 or 2000. So the samples are useful as sonic material in their own way, but not at all as Birotron sounds. The guys do seem like nice guys in their videos though and I believe they meant well. And I'd hope they wouldn't lose their shirts over the faulty samples.
>
> As far as crowdfunding goes, that's sort of what we're doing already. The more support there is, the further things can go. I believe in a 'shared fate' approach. We either win together or we lose together.
> I can't offer sounds, but I am offering my own artwork as 'rewards' for donations.
> There is progress, but I'd like to see things move a bit faster. None of us are getting any younger.
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> (except maybe Jack Younger :) Is he still with us on the list?)
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> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 7:21 PM, Mark Pring markpringnz@yahoo.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> That was fascinating. My knowledge of the sound of the Birotron is limited to the samples in M-tron pro. Did you consider approaching GForce software? It sounds like the sort of thing they would be interested in, perhaps releasing it as an extension pack. I also wondered if a crowdfunded approach to releasing the samples might work better as well.
>
> Good luck.
>
>
> Mark
>> From: "Chris Dale unobtainiumkeys@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup]" <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com>
> To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 24 November 2015 11:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Faces in our setting sun
>
>
> Well this might interest some of you.
>
> Some of you know about this already and some don't.
>
>
> When I first became involved with fixing the Double Mellotron that belonged to Rick Wakeman / Yes, I had to acquire all kinds of help from people who had been involved with the instrument back in the 70's.
> This was mainly because the electronics and design had been altered.
> Some of these people were also involved with the making of the Birotron and this led to eventually meeting Wakeman (again) and working on restoring bits of the Birotron - old cartridge tapes, an unfinished prototype etc.
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> The basic idea was just to give it some presence and not let it disappear completely into oblivion.
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> While I was going down this path, I was eventually able to encounter and subsequently acquire not just a Birotron but also the master tape library, which unfortunately cannot be played without the tapes first being heat treated to dry them out.
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> I've privately received a lot of interest outside our respective 'mellotron groups' from people all over the world who would like to have the Birotron sounds and be able to use them. I suspect some of these are people who wanted a Birotron back in the 70's and never received one. But most are definitely younger people looking for sounds that are new. The Birotron sounds have gone unheard and unplayed for about 40 years.
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> Since it's literally impossible for people to play a Birotron these days, the next best thing (the only thing actually) is to archive these sounds digitally, make new 8 track replacement tapes from the master tapes, and find a format to make the sounds eventually available to others - either some kind of sample library or virtual instrument.
>
>
> So I started a fundraising page for an entire Birotron 'resuscitation' project (sound preservation/archive/museum display/promotional concert/restoration of surviving Birotron units)
> with the funds first going to save the sound library from rotting away permanently which is what is happening as I write this.
>
> Although the tapes are kept in a temperature controlled environment, the type of mould on the tapes likely comes from the climates of several countries they've been through, and can only be slowed down - not halted. The mould is also toxic and I'm not able to ship these to a preservation facility in the USA without taking on undue risk, or incurring ridiculous expenses or paperwork.
>
> I've contacted specialists here in Canada who've advised putting the tapes in a sealed room and then using a special ozone dispensing machine so that ozone can be pumped in, whilst driving all the oxygen out and starving/killing off the mould for a minimum 24 hour period.
> This is a great idea except that we don't know what interactions or effects the ozone has chemically on the playability of the 40 year old tapes.
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> Which brings us back to square one - which is simply baking the tapes and recording them diligently within a 24 hour period, using a professional studio to digitally preserve them, and then editing the sounds for usability in software.
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> The features and drawbacks of the Birotron have been discussed on and off our list, (as have the Mellotron and Chamberlin) but since there are now only 2 complete and fully functioning machines left, in my opinion, what only matters now is just saving the sounds for posterity.
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> The original Birotron 8 track tapes have not been a viable sound source since about 1983, as the tapes were constantly going around and were designed for only 100 hours of use, and were already worn out back then because the bands that had them never received replacements - including Wakeman.
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> So the master tapes are the only viable sound source and the question now is whether you'd want the option of having Birotron sounds in the future, or whether these sounds should disappear forever.
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> Anyway if you're interested in this, please go to https://www.gofundme.com/birotron and make a donation to help preserve the master tapes. There is a documentary video that explains everything and has been fact checked / error-checked by the Birotronics people who were both there and directly involved at that time.
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> The more support / donations we receive, the cheaper and more affordable the sounds would be. The less we receive the more astronomically expensive these would be. The latter is not what I want to see happen.
> The worst case scenario is that only a few of the sounds can be preserved.
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> I've been in touch with the surviving people directly involved with the making of the Birotron master tapes, and they've assured me that no expense was spared in recording the sounds, so something worthwhile will come from the tapes.
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> Anyway, see what you think, and make up your own mind:
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> https://www.gofundme.com/birotron
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> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 12:43 AM, jfranmac@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
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> This group got quiet while i was away from it, so i'm not sure why it did. There was a bit more humour and ribbing back then. I only value this group as a place to discuss Real mellotrons. Anything else is just digital synthery. You can get that anywhere. I do like that others share music though. Maybe soundcloud or reverbnation is best for that though. Or youtube.btw- i currently do not own a mellotron. When i do get "upstairs" to write, i use Redtron vst. (As a placeholder for when i get another 'tron:)
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