> On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> I used ARDUINO as example......
> I do nothing with ARDUINO.
>
> I don't need to shave production costs.... I'm just dabbling with hobby electronics with a leaning toward ham radio.
> I built a radio with $7 of components and heard France.
You heard France, and you are located in ? Belgium?
You may question the trend to microminiaturization, but remember
that the hobby market is negligible compared to the consumer
market which DEMANDS smaller and smaller electronics. Soon,
you will not find through parts anymore. But that shouldn’t be
an obstacle to experimentation and hobby electronics.
SMT is easy, but not too tolerant of messiness, so hobbyists will
need to learn how to deal with which is no big deal.
Just my $0.02,
Jean-Paul
N1JPL
> Sort of just proving anyone can do it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/10/2016 10:33 AM, Harvey White madyn@...[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:07:59 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>> >Sure
>> >..... there are SOIC size chips not being offered in DIP
>>
>> Complete product lines, for example.
>>
>> >BUT
>> >for the millions of wannabe DIY newbies playing with electronics for ham
>> >radio and ARDUINO and
>> >robotics ....... we are not needing those SOIC chips to have our fun.
>>
>> The problem arrives when you need heavier duty fun that a an Arduino
>> based system cannot provide, or when you decide that the Arduino
>> framework is too limited.
>>
>> For many, Arduino is sufficient. There are cases when arduinos are
>> not sufficient.
>>
>> >
>> >Speaking of LCDs and SOIC.....
>> >I thought I had bought a SOIC adapter but found that it had 16 pins in
>> >the space of the 8 pins of a
>> >PIC12F675..... so I added a layer of adaptation:
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic1.jpg
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic2.jpg
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic3.jpg
>> >and still had a fit problem...... bent pins to cure.
>> >
>> >As Jim is having a heck of a time getting SOIC chip carriers to mate
>> >with DIP... in everything from
>> >actual circuits to burners......
>> >I have to question the NEED to miniaturize everything......
>> >Like .. to Ancel .....the PIC12F675 laminator controller..
>> >why make it so small?
>>
>> If you need a PC board that has plated through holes, and want real
>> plated through holes, you're going to have someone else make the
>> board. There are people who can do plated through holes, but that's
>> another matter.
>>
>> If you have boards made, then size becomes important, since board
>> costs are per square inch, for instance.
>>
>> There are also packaging situations where size is important.
>>
>> >Why use SMT instead of DIP for that project?
>> >I think SMT prohibits some newbies from electronics exploration.
>>
>> It does, and some people never go past pre-built boards. Some never
>> go past DIP and through hole, and some need additional capabilities.
>>
>> >
>> >And LCD....
>> >
>> >Complete LCD modules cost $1.60 now:
>> >LCD Display Character Module LCM 16x2 HD4478Controller Blue Blacklight
>> >1602 RX
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/lcdexp01.jpg
>> >
>> >20 years ago I paid MOUSER $40 to buy that same LCD.
>> >
>> >So now it costs about $2 to add debugging and status information to any
>> >$2 PIC circuit
>> >without having to accommodate "In circuit Programming" or any advanced IDE
>> >running a real time debugger.
>>
>> I'm thinking a display from QVGA up to VGA, running graphics, having
>> GUI capabilities. Unfortunately, we're not talking the same LCD
>> display.
>>
>> You would like to have an advanced IDE running a real time debugger
>> for this. The complexity of the design (system wise) dictates the
>> complexity of the software (size of flash/ram in chip) which then
>> dictates the complexity of the hardware. That, in turn, changes the
>> desired construction method.
>>
>> Harvey
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >On 12/10/2016 09:20 AM, Harvey White madyn@...
>> >[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 01:04:41 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >PANTUM here now waiting to be hacked.
>> >> >
>> >> >SOIC is definitely doable.
>> >> >This is a PIC16F629
>> >> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5070.jpg
>> >> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5077.jpg
>> >> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/index.html
>> >> >
>> >> >I sort of think of SOIC as a novelty.
>> >> >Nothing in my hobby electronics world mandates SOIC.
>> >> >Nothing SOIC has replaced anything DIP here because DIP is obsolete and
>> >> >unavailable.
>> >>
>> >> There are chips that are not available in DIP packages. Any ATMEL
>> >> XMEGA and the EPSON S1D13781 LCD display controller. The LCD
>> >> controller is 0.5 mm spacing and the CPU is about 0.6. You'd want to
>> >> use 0805 or 1206 SMT parts with the design.
>> >>
>> >> If you're doing that kind of design, you end up doing SMT parts. It's
>> >> a slightly different world, but you can do 10/10 with toner transfer.
>> >>
>> >> All depends on what you want to build.
>> >>
>> >> Harvey
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >I only show and tell SMT to educate the kids..... and intrigue the
>> >> >adults with
>> >> >007 James Bond transmitters.... KNIGHTSMITE in a mint can.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >On 12/09/2016 11:35 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> >> >[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Probably the best hobbyist method these days is to modify a cheap
>> >> >> printer to do direct printing as pioneered by Mark Lerman
>> >> >> (spelling?). That didn’t seem possible but he proved us wrong. The
>> >> >> only consumable is acetone which other toner methods needs anyway.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Laser & paint might be even easier but I’ve yet to try it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I’ve been finding for fine pitch work it’s easier to buy those
>> >> >> adapters, solder the SMD part to that and them soldering that to the
>> >> >> main board is easier. Packs of those are pretty cheap these days.
>> >> >> You convert the SMD into through hole so the main board is simpler. As
>> >> >> usual YMMV.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tony
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ∗From:∗Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> >> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> >> >> ∗Sent:∗ Saturday, 10 December 2016 2:59 PM
>> >> >> ∗To:∗ Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> >> ∗Subject:∗ Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat
>> >> >> Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The goal was to figure out if the touchup pen can be omitted from the
>> >> >> process.
>> >> >> Its hard to see to do the touchup.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And as far as return on investment goes......
>> >> >> IF it works with the craft TRF then that works out to less than a dime
>> >> >> of TRF per PCB.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 12/09/2016 10:18 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> >> >> <mailto:ajsmith1968@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I don’t think the foil is going to add much that touching up with
>> >> >> a pen won’t already.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The foil will probably lessen the edge quality (ragged edges) and
>> >> >> possibly spread the traces when run through the laminator again.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I’m a bit dubious about the return on investment there. I
>> >> >> remember this stuff from years ago.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Anyway, no harm trying. Less harm if it’s someone else trying it!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tony
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ∗From:∗Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> >> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> >> >> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> >> >> ∗Sent:∗ Saturday, 10 December 2016 1:53 PM
>> >> >> ∗To:∗ Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> >> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> >> >> ∗Subject:∗ Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat
>> >> >> Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Because the toner is not 100 percent etch resistant.
>> >> >> The toner leaks. Not a lot, a pin hole here and there.. a tracing
>> >> >> gap ..... imperfections.
>> >> >> The toner transfer isn't always perfect for me..... close... real
>> >> >> close to perfection.....
>> >> >> but not perfect every time.
>> >> >>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/PIC16F628PROTO8d.jpg
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So I have taken up the procedure of going over the toner with a
>> >> >> sharpie permanent marker...
>> >> >> then found EDDING 404 MUCH better than the sharpie.....
>> >> >> and getting excellent etchings:
>> >> >> http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/IMG_5156a.JPG
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So now we have this problem solved by an arts and crafts type of
>> >> >> transfer method
>> >> >> that is known to STICK TO TONER quite well.
>> >> >> I have not used it yet but intend to learn if the cheap 100 foot
>> >> >> craft toner reactive foil will
>> >> >> deposit an acid resistent layer.
>> >> >> It would save me the task of tracing the toner.
>> >> >> One thing to note about all this testing on my stuff is that I'm
>> >> >> not manufacturing anythign to sell.
>> >> >> I'm just documenting what works for me to share with the
>> >> >> kids....scouts....newbies......
>> >> >> and I'm not making real tiny SMT projects.....
>> >> >> much of my traces are 1/8th inch and nothing real critical here.
>> >> >> BUT
>> >> >> its nice to learn how this CAN be done smaller.....
>> >> >> and I don't think its possible to hand trace SMT toner traces
>> >> >> without screwing them up.
>> >> >> So if TRF foils do this sealant task then that would be real nice
>> >> >> to learn.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And yes... I had that same thought about foil... metal...
>> >> >> etching......
>> >> >> so I bought the notsoshiny stuff to play with...thinking its just
>> >> >> the pigment we want to stick to the toner.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> >> >> FROM :https://www.circuitspecialists.com/pcb-trf-green.html
>> >> >> This Green foil has a special adhesive coating ("sizing") applied
>> >> >> underneath the pigment color. When the foil and toner image are
>> >> >> subjected to high heat and pressure, the color permanently fuse to
>> >> >> just the toner image.
>> >> >> The interesting thing about toner (from a laser printer or
>> >> >> photo-copier) is that it is madeup of about 55% pulverized
>> >> >> plastic. So, by covering a toner printed image previously
>> >> >> transferred to the copper board, and applying heat & pressure to
>> >> >> it, the foil encapsulate the toner. In effect, the black toner
>> >> >> turns either Green or White. We use these two foils for two
>> >> >> different purposes.
>> >> >> GreenTRF is used to seal the toner "circuit image" after it has
>> >> >> been transferred to the circuit board.
>> >> >> Toner is a very porous material. If left alone and the board was
>> >> >> etched, you'd wind up with pitted surfaces or even hairline breaks
>> >> >> from cracks that were too small to see with the naked eye.
>> >> >> GreenTRF solves this problem by completely encapsulating the toner
>> >> >> image in one easy step. An absolute "must have" for producing
>> >> >> quality boards.
>> >> >> Film for colorizing and sealing black toner used as an "etch resist".
>> >> >> 8" wide, 15 feet long.
>> >> >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 12/09/2016 09:06 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> >> >> <mailto:ajsmith1968@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Why bother putting foil over toner if the toner already works
>> >> >> as a resist?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Shiny though!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I wonder if it’s conductive…
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tony
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I see there is this:
>> >> >> Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil 8"x100' Roll OR
>> >> >> 4"x100' Roll US Made
>> >> >> so
>> >> >> I bought the 4 inch X 100 foot roll for $15 just to try it out.
>> >> >> Instructions all over the YOUTUBE say how to apply it to toner
>> >> >> artwork with an iron or laminator
>> >> >> so this looks to me like it might work for etching.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 12/09/2016 10:56 AM, Rob roomberg@...
>> >> >> <mailto:roomberg@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I tried nail polish. I got what looked like crackle paint
>> >> >> hairline webs in the final copper traces.....
>> >> >> looked almost like ice crystals.... seemed to have shrunk
>> >> >> when it dried and then allowed acid to etch where it shrunk.
>> >> >> Considering all nail polish is not created equal there may
>> >> >> be a better etch resist nail polish. I am not the
>> >> >> guy to test all of them.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> At $9 ....seems the price of 15 feet of GREEN TRF is cheep
>> >> >> enough to warrant experimenting with it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 12/09/2016 04:25 AM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@...
>> >> >> <mailto:kbyrne10@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yea but my Green TRF gets perfect copper traces no
>> >> >> pits, no joke. Green trf under pieces of steel after?
>> >> >> Would it work? My old way was cheep nail polish a
>> >> >> cheep artist brush and direct etch. Nail polish
>> >> >> remover to remove nail polish after acid bath. That
>> >> >> could be done cheep by just going to dollar store for
>> >> >> supplies and no more pits for your art work on copper.
>> >> >> Kevin
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>
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>> >>
>>
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