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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=FR-CA link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I’m debugging a PIC program that normally sends MIDI data on one of the micro’s UART port.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>And that works fine.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>But I’m in a debugging section where I’d like to use this MIDI output port<br>to output 16 bits datas (2 consecutives bytes) wired on my Windows MIDI-OX MIDI stream monitor.<br>The thing is that this program check the incoming MIDI command data values<br>and do not show those that would exceed standard MIDI specs..<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>So my question is :<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Is there a MIDI command (SYSEX or whatever..) that I could put 2 consecutive 8 bits datas in<br>and would be accepted in the standard MIDI protocol ??<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>For example Control Change (0xE0) uses 2 consecutive bytes variables but each of them<br>cannot exceed 0x7F. So.. not usable for me.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Any commands that would do ?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=FR style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>De :</span></b><span lang=FR style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Mike Bryant <mbryant@futurehorizons.com> <br><b>Envoyé :</b> 7 janvier 2025 18:37<br><b>À :</b> rburnett@richieburnett.co.uk; Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc@oricom.ca><br><b>Cc :</b> synth-diy@synth-diy.org<br><b>Objet :</b> Re: [sdiy] Looking for a mini rotary encoder with very low torque (servo type)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>How wide is the paper ? One possibility would be to rip an old HP Thinkjet printer apart and use the grit-wheel mechanism to keep the paper velocity constant.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="98%" align=center></div><div id=divRplyFwdMsg><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> Synth-diy <<a href="mailto:synth-diy-bounces@synth-diy.org">synth-diy-bounces@synth-diy.org</a>> on behalf of <a href="mailto:rburnett@richieburnett.co.uk">rburnett@richieburnett.co.uk</a> <<a href="mailto:rburnett@richieburnett.co.uk">rburnett@richieburnett.co.uk</a>><br><b>Sent:</b> 07 January 2025 22:57<br><b>To:</b> Jean-Pierre Desrochers <<a href="mailto:jpdesroc@oricom.ca">jpdesroc@oricom.ca</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:synth-diy@synth-diy.org">synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a> <<a href="mailto:synth-diy@synth-diy.org">synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [sdiy] Looking for a mini rotary encoder with very low torque (servo type)</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>JP would it be practical to use a capstan and pinch-roller arrangement <br>to keep the velocity of the paper constant, despite the increase in the <br>effective diameter of the take-up roller? Like how tape was driven <br>through an old reel-to-reel tape machine.<br><br>Apologies if someone already suggested this and I missed it.<br><br>-Richie.<br><br><br>On 2025-01-07 21:19, Jean-Pierre Desrochers via Synth-diy wrote:<br>> Hi Spiros,<br>> <br>> Thanks for your kind suggestions..<br>> But let me point out some lines heres :<br>> <br>> _> is that to achieve an 1:1 translation of linear movement of paper<br>> to rotation of encoder you need a way to ensure that the two are<br>> always in optimal contact, which basically translates to keeping the<br>> tension > controlled within some window, so that the paper presses on<br>> it properly at all times. If that was the case you wouldn't need this<br>> method at all,_<br>> …<br>>> since a rotation of your motor would already translate directly > to<br>> linear motion of the paper,<br>> <br>> That’s true but the acumulating thickness of the take up spool<br>> accelerates the paper pace..<br>> So checking the motor speed to adjust the pape has never been the<br>> solution.<br>> <br>>> As a final thought, you mentioned that you don't care about encoder<br>> resolution, but my experience with controlling slow moving motors is<br>> that as speed goes down,<br>>> worse. The reason is that you produce "corrections" in the form of<br>> pulses as the shaft turns;<br>>> keeping the resolution constant and reducing the speed means you get<br>> to wait more time between those corrections,<br>>> essentially creating temporal "gaps" in your control loop.<br>> <br>> I think youd didn’t notice I’m using step motors so adjusting the<br>> steps timing<br>> is much precise than do ON/OFF stuff on DC motors which I’m nort<br>> using here.<br>> <br>> _>Doing a search in aliexpress with the keywords "motor encoder" could<br>> yield some results worth trying out._<br>> <br>> I don’t want to check the motor shaft speed using an internal<br>> encoder..<br>> It’s the paper pace I need to have an eye on.<br>> <br>> _> Quite the head scratcher you have here. As you can probably tell I<br>> love these sorts of control puzzles!_<br>> <br>> That’s the fun of it !!<br>> <br>> De : Spiros Makris <<a href="mailto:spirosmakris92@gmail.com">spirosmakris92@gmail.com</a>><br>> Envoyé : 7 janvier 2025 05:53<br>> À : Jean-Pierre Desrochers <<a href="mailto:jpdesroc@oricom.ca">jpdesroc@oricom.ca</a>><br>> Cc : <a href="mailto:synth-diy@synth-diy.org">synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a><br>> Objet : Re: [sdiy] Looking for a mini rotary encoder with very low<br>> torque (servo type)<br>> <br>> yes, I did after posting my message.<br>> <br>> It does seem fiddly, but if it works it works, I guess. </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😅</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><br>> <br>> As is common in robotics, the exact thing you need to know and the<br>> method you observe it can be a very convoluted topic. My understanding<br>> of the problem is that you need the paper to move with a constant pace<br>> under some sort of reader (I vaguely remember your past emails about<br>> how to detect the hole patterns on the piano roll). In theory,<br>> directly measuring that rotation by making the paper rotate the<br>> encoder as it moves would suffice. What I'm thinking (and maybe<br>> playing devil's advocate here), is that to achieve an 1:1 translation<br>> of linear movement of paper to rotation of encoder you need a way to<br>> ensure that the two are always in optimal contact, which basically<br>> translates to keeping the tension controlled within some window, so<br>> that the paper presses on it properly at all times. If that was the<br>> case you wouldn't need this method at all, since a rotation of your<br>> motor would already translate directly to linear motion of the paper,<br>> not to mention that dodgy sensor measurements will definitely manifest<br>> as weirdness in your control behaviour. As an example, think what<br>> would a PID do if suddenly the measured speed was dropping to zero<br>> because of slippage; it would accelerate thinking it needs to<br>> compensate, increase the tension again and produce measurements, try<br>> to slow down, then possibly lose tension again etc and enter a kind of<br>> oscillation that might be hard to tame.<br>> <br>> Using a second passive wheel to sandwich the paper and force it to be<br>> in good contact with your encoder wheel at all times could be<br>> something to try out if you stumble on that problem.<br>> <br>> As a final thought, you mentioned that you don't care about encoder<br>> resolution, but my experience with controlling slow moving motors is<br>> that as speed goes down, the speed measurements become worse. The<br>> reason is that you produce "corrections" in the form of pulses as the<br>> shaft turns; keeping the resolution constant and reducing the speed<br>> means you get to wait more time between those corrections, essentially<br>> creating temporal "gaps" in your control loop. To solve it you will be<br>> forced to increase the integration time (which converts position to<br>> speed), which in turn will make your control loop slower. If this<br>> speed is not enough orders of magnitude above the process you are<br>> trying to control, you are in for some fun times trying to tune this<br>> (more or less) untunable loop. In practice, spending more money for a<br>> much more accurate encoder could solve this, but those buggers can get<br>> pretty expensive when you go into the 100s of pulses per revolution<br>> region. Doing a search in aliexpress with the keywords "motor encoder"<br>> could yield some results worth trying out. Using gears to multiply the<br>> revolutions measured by the sensors would be a cheap way out, but this<br>> will proportionally increase the torque required to turn the wheel,<br>> possibly making the paper slip.<br>> <br>> If this approach fails, it could be worth investigating ways to<br>> control the tension of the paper, rather than its speed.<br>> <br>> Quite the head scratcher you have here. As you can probably tell I<br>> love these sorts of control puzzles!<br>> <br>> On Mon, 6 Jan 2025 at 17:26, Jean-Pierre Desrochers<br>> <<a href="mailto:jpdesroc@oricom.ca">jpdesroc@oricom.ca</a>> wrote:<br>> <br>>> Thank You Spiros for your nice message.<br>>> <br>>> Did you see my last post about the final setup I will use ?<br>>> <br>>> The small wheel with tire is making a good steady contact<br>>> with the scrolling paper I want to measure the speed of..<br>>> <br>>> So far so good.<br>>> <br>>> De : Spiros Makris <<a href="mailto:spirosmakris92@gmail.com">spirosmakris92@gmail.com</a>><br>>> Envoyé : 6 janvier 2025 07:29<br>>> À : Jean-Pierre Desrochers <<a href="mailto:jpdesroc@oricom.ca">jpdesroc@oricom.ca</a>><br>>> Cc : Gerry Murray <<a href="mailto:synthimuse@gmail.com">synthimuse@gmail.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:synth-diy@synth-diy.org">synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a><br>>> Objet : Re: [sdiy] Looking for a mini rotary encoder with very low<br>>> torque (servo type)<br>>> <br>>> Did you have a look at encoders built for motor control (and<br>>> robotics in general)? They can in many flavors (and prices), and are<br>>> usually mount on the shaft of the motor; in your case you might need<br>>> to devise a different mounting method. Using rubber bands is<br>>> probably going to slip, but if space allows you could use a belt,<br>>> the way 3D printers do - if properly designed for the application it<br>>> will not slip.<br>>> <br>>> In my experience, trying to make your own using hall sensors and<br>>> magnets will be hard to nail down, unless you have a 3D printer (or<br>>> other CNC type machine) that will take care of tolerances for you.<br>>> If your goal is to keep speed constant, or measure amount of<br>>> rotation, this can have a very big impact on your application.<br>>> <br>>> Finally, you can get rotary encoders aimed for UI/controls that have<br>>> a smooth rotation. They specify the torque needed to turn them, so<br>>> you can pick the lowest. If what you measure is actively moved by a<br>>> motor then it will definitely have no problem turning it, and will<br>>> be unlikely to slip, as long as it is mated to the rotating axis<br>>> properly.<br>>> <br>>> You might also consider tensioning your moving paper in a different<br>>> way, so that the slip will become negligible.<br>>> <br>>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 at 18:55, Jean-Pierre Desrochers via Synth-diy<br>>> <<a href="mailto:synth-diy@synth-diy.org">synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a>> wrote:<br>>> <br>>> _> Is it more important to measure the surface of the paper itself<br>>> due to torque/slippage reasons like on a tape machine, _<br>>> <br>>> Yes.<br>>> <br>>> _> or will measuring the speed of the take up spool get you the same<br>>> info?_<br>>> <br>>> No.<br>>> <br>>>> If the latter is an option, what about a magnet and a hall sensor<br>>> on the take up spool,<br>>>> disk the same diameter as the take up reel in the drive mechanism<br>>> with some other sort of sensor on it like cheater mentioned,<br>>>> or even a small notch in the take up spool (or equivalent disk in<br>>> the drive mechanism) that has a limit switch with roller against it.<br>>> Measuring the take up spool rotation speed will hide the actual<br>>> problem I have<br>>> which is paper thickness accumulation on the take up spool (with<br>>> fixed speed)<br>>> that speeds up the overall moving paper speed !<br>>> <br>>> So far my software only put 25 fixed parameters (by means of a<br>>> potentiometer) to control<br>>> the PLAY stepup motor steps and would not check for any speedup in a<br>>> song.<br>>> That’s what I discovered some days ago and am trying to fix.<br>>> <br>>> The solution is to read the paper moving surface (regardless of the<br>>> take up spool speed )<br>>> But in a very small space to do it.<br>>> So no place for any encoder disc (it would need to be smaller than<br>>> 18mm in diameter.. see why below),<br>>> nor any ‘normal’ size Opto-Interrupter..<br>>> <br>>> Because of the very small and limited space I could mount this<br>>> thing,<br>>> <br>>> I will use a model car wheel with rubber tire (overall outside<br>>> diameter 18mm),<br>>> <br>>> mounted on a small 1/16in. shaft that will turn a small glued piece<br>>> of opaque plastic<br>>> in the slot of a very small SMD opto-interupter like this one :<br>>> <br>>> The below picture shows the actual tiny wheel with rubber tire I<br>>> will use (to put against the moving paper)<br>>> and part of the setup I used in a past project with a small rotating<br>>> piece of plastic<br>>> moving inside a Opto-Interrupter.<br>>> Mine will be much smaller.<br>>> <br>>> I’m now waiting my Digikey order for the Opto-Interrupters + nylon<br>>> hardware.<br>>> <br>>> And thanks Gerry for your nice suggestions !<br>>> <br>>> De : Synth-diy <<a href="mailto:synth-diy-bounces@synth-diy.org">synth-diy-bounces@synth-diy.org</a>> De la part de<br>>> Nathan Trites<br>>> Envoyé : 12 décembre 2024 10:17<br>>> À : Gerry Murray <<a href="mailto:synthimuse@gmail.com">synthimuse@gmail.com</a>><br>>> Cc : <a href="mailto:synth-diy@synth-diy.org">synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a><br>>> Objet : Re: [sdiy] Looking for a mini rotary encoder with very low<br>>> torque (servo type)<br>>> <br>>> This is the direction I was just thinking, and was also on the<br>>> Adafruit site looking at plug and play sensor options.<br>>> <br>>> Jean-Pierre - I'm assuming this is to make the speed on your piano<br>>> roll player programmable/repeatable? Is it more important to measure<br>>> the surface of the paper itself due to torque/slippage reasons like<br>>> on a tape machine, or will measuring the speed of the take up spool<br>>> get you the same info? If the latter is an option, what about a<br>>> magnet and a hall sensor on the take up spool, disk the same<br>>> diameter as the take up reel in the drive mechanism with some other<br>>> sort of sensor on it like cheater mentioned, or even a small notch<br>>> in the take up spool (or equivalent disk in the drive mechanism)<br>>> that has a limit switch with roller against it.<br>>> <br>>> If it must be against the paper, opto-interruptors and disks are<br>>> available on their own, and then you could rig something up so that<br>>> assembly rests lightly against the paper:<br>>> <br>>> <a href="https://bc-robotics.com/shop/opto-interrupter-with-mounting-tabs/">https://bc-robotics.com/shop/opto-interrupter-with-mounting-tabs/</a><br>>> <br>>> <a href="https://bc-robotics.com/shop/encoder-disc/">https://bc-robotics.com/shop/encoder-disc/</a><br>>> <br>>> Nathan<br>>> <br>>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 9:22</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>AM Gerry Murray via Synth-diy<br>>> <<a href="mailto:synth-diy@synth-diy.org">synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a>> wrote:<br>>> <br>>> Hi JP<br>>> <br>>> You could maybe try a resolver. The resolution of them can be very<br>>> high<br>>> : up to 16 bit.<br>>> <br>> <a href="https://www.mouser.co.uk/applications/resolver-encoder-motor-control/">https://www.mouser.co.uk/applications/resolver-encoder-motor-control/</a><br>>> <a href="https://www.instructables.com/Arduino-Resolver-Module/">https://www.instructables.com/Arduino-Resolver-Module/</a><br>>> <br>>> I always like it when you put an inquiry on the list because,<br>>> usually 6<br>>> months later on, a really cool project emerges. :-)<br>>> <br>>> Best wishes<br>>> <br>>> Gerry<br>>> <br>>> On 11/12/2024 15:09, Jean-Pierre Desrochers via Synth-diy wrote:<br>>>> I'm looking for a very small (20mm or less body diameter)<br>>>> rotary encoder with very low torque (servo type).<br>>>> The low torque shaft is needed because it will turn by means<br>>>> of a small wheel with rubber sides that will be put against a<br>>> moving surface, turn and 'follow'<br>>>> the moving surface.. no slipping allowed !<br>>>> <br>>>> The precision of steps/turn is not important.<br>>>> But the higher will be best..<br>>>> <br>>>> I was thinking of using a dismantled PC mouse (rubber ball type)<br>>>> and use one of the two X/Y optical rotary encoders, but these PC<br>>> mice<br>>>> nowadays are hard to find.. So.<br>>>> <br>>>> I checked Digikey and Mouser but they have encoder too big<br>>>> for my uses..<br>>>> The smaller I found has 20mm in diameter..<br>>>> <br>>> <br>> <a href="https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/nidec-components-corporation/RES20D-50-201-1/6469509">https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/nidec-components-corporation/RES20D-50-201-1/6469509</a><br>>>> <br>>>> Any suggestions ?<br>>>> <br>>>> <br>>>> ________________________________________________________<br>>>> This is the Synth-diy mailing list<br>>>> Submit email to: <a href="mailto:Synth-diy@synth-diy.org">Synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a><br>>>> View archive at: <a href="https://synth-diy.org/pipermail/synth-diy/">https://synth-diy.org/pipermail/synth-diy/</a><br>>>> Check your settings at:<br>>> <a href="https://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy">https://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy</a><br>>>> Selling or trading? Use <a href="mailto:marketplace@synth-diy.org">marketplace@synth-diy.org</a><br>>> <br>>> ________________________________________________________<br>>> This is the Synth-diy mailing list<br>>> Submit email to: <a href="mailto:Synth-diy@synth-diy.org">Synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a><br>>> View archive at: <a href="https://synth-diy.org/pipermail/synth-diy/">https://synth-diy.org/pipermail/synth-diy/</a><br>>> Check your settings at:<br>>> <a href="https://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy">https://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy</a><br>>> Selling or trading? Use <a href="mailto:marketplace@synth-diy.org">marketplace@synth-diy.org</a><br>>> <br>>> ________________________________________________________<br>>> This is the Synth-diy mailing list<br>>> Submit email to: <a href="mailto:Synth-diy@synth-diy.org">Synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a><br>>> View archive at: <a href="https://synth-diy.org/pipermail/synth-diy/">https://synth-diy.org/pipermail/synth-diy/</a><br>>> Check your settings at:<br>>> <a href="https://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy">https://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy</a><br>>> Selling or trading? Use <a href="mailto:marketplace@synth-diy.org">marketplace@synth-diy.org</a><br>> ________________________________________________________<br>> This is the Synth-diy mailing list<br>> Submit email to: <a href="mailto:Synth-diy@synth-diy.org">Synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a><br>> View archive at: <a href="https://synth-diy.org/pipermail/synth-diy/">https://synth-diy.org/pipermail/synth-diy/</a><br>> Check your settings at: <br>> <a href="https://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy">https://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy</a><br>> Selling or trading? Use <a href="mailto:marketplace@synth-diy.org">marketplace@synth-diy.org</a><br>________________________________________________________<br>This is the Synth-diy mailing list<br>Submit email to: <a href="mailto:Synth-diy@synth-diy.org">Synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a><br>View archive at: <a href="https://synth-diy.org/pipermail/synth-diy/">https://synth-diy.org/pipermail/synth-diy/</a><br>Check your settings at: <a href="https://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy">https://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy</a><br>Selling or trading? Use <a href="mailto:marketplace@synth-diy.org">marketplace@synth-diy.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>