<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23562"></HEAD>
<BODY style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space">
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=904000722-16052024>I have only ever had to
make my own model once, simply because there was no model in Multisim -- for the
2164 quad VCA, a pretty important component in synth-world. I made the
simplest possible model of it -- a current amplifier with exponential voltage
control -- and it has served me extremely well for about 14 years.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=904000722-16052024></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=904000722-16052024>Like Tom, I use
simulation as a virtual breadboard. Also, sometimes I am just too lazy to
calculate component values for a certain application (such as, for example, what
are the correct input resistors on a non-inverting summer to get the output I
want from several inputs), so I just set up a quick simulation to get the right
compoent values.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=904000722-16052024></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=904000722-16052024>If you think you will be
able to use simulation to determine the effect of, say, sharp corners on a PCB
trace, then you have the wrong idea about simulation. It is mostly useful
for confirming that a given circuit will actually do what you intend for it to
do, before taking the trouble to build it.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=904000722-16052024></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=904000722-16052024>Also, I almost never
breadboard. I just etch a PCB and build the circuit to test it. If
it works, then I've already got it. If it doesn't, then it still didn't
take as long as breadboarding would have taken. Yes, it's quicker and
easier to lay out a PCB, print it, etch it, drill it, stuff it, and solder it,
then it is to build a significant circuit on a breadboard.</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> Synth-diy
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces@synth-diy.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Tom
Wiltshire<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 16, 2024 1:29 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Jay
Schwichtenberg<BR><B>Cc:</B> synth-diy@synth-diy.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[sdiy] Becoming better at understanding difficult analog
schematics<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<TABLE style="PADDING-LEFT: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse">
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD><FONT
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; LINE-HEIGHT: 1.6; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffecb3; FONT-STYLE: normal; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; PADDING-TOP: 3px">[<STRONG>CAUTION:</STRONG>
Non-UBC Email]</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Maybe I'm a newb, but I don't
agree about "more than likely add your own models". There's a lot of useful
stuff you can do in LTspice without going near making your own models.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Perhaps we're just working towards different objectives? Mostly I use it
for testing ideas instead of breadboarding, generating frequency responses for
networks that would be a pain to work out manually, checking filter responses,
that sort of stuff.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I definitely don't think it's going to give me a perfect answer - the first
time I got the ideal op-amp model to spin out to a 15KV output voltage firmly
dissuaded me of that, and that's surprisingly easy to do. The concept of
"op-amps with no supply rails" is pretty weird, if you're coming from a more
practical background - and since it clearly leads to behaviour which is far from
realistic, I did wonder a bit why they included them at all. Now I'm better at
it, I know when I can use the basic models because it doesn't matter and when I
need something that actually has a rail limit. So yes, I totally agree that you
need some understanding of what the thing is doing and what you're looking at -
but 15KV output is a give-away to *anyone*, right, newb or not?!?</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On 16 May 2024, at 19:58, Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy <<A
href="mailto:synth-diy@synth-diy.org">synth-diy@synth-diy.org</A>>
wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P>I wouldn't recommend noobs using simulation without them having some
understanding of it. Main reason without knowing how it works they assume that
a simulation is going to give you the perfect answer or close to it.<BR></P>
<P>To get good simulations you really need to know what you are doing and more
than likely make your own models. A lot of the models for components are
simple and don't go into the details of the components. So that can make a big
difference in the simulation.</P>
<P>There are things like noise, power supply ripple, transmission lines, PCB
layout ... that you have to manually add to get really good simulations that
they have no idea how to do.</P>
<P>Jay S.</P>
<P><BR></P>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On 5/16/2024 11:21 AM, Paulo Constantino via
Synth-diy wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:CAFBByKV3p5KD+AxFvd7X2jgAOA1eoNvOrVRCXTQM=QJhS9PQ0g@mail.gmail.com
type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: monospace,monospace; COLOR: #0b5394; FONT-SIZE: small"
class=gmail_default>What about the Falstad simulator? It's the best for
quick and dirty sims!!!!!!!</DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr class=gmail_attr>On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 7:11 PM Chris McDowell
via Synth-diy <<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:synth-diy@synth-diy.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">synth-diy@synth-diy.org</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=auto>Simulation, yeah! I learn a ton from popping stuff into
LTSpice and try out anything new or novel there first. <BR
id=m_4732428870818493596lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature>
<DIV dir=ltr>Cheers,
<DIV>Chris </DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">On May 16, 2024, at 8:21 AM, ben gebhardt via
Synth-diy <<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:synth-diy@synth-diy.org" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">synth-diy@synth-diy.org</A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px">
<DIV dir=ltr>Not sure if mentioned already, but I learn alot by
simulating circuits and then doing time and frequency domain analysis.
</DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:CAFBByKV3p5KD+AxFvd7X2jgAOA1eoNvOrVRCXTQM=QJhS9PQ0g@mail.gmail.com
type="cite">
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=auto>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px">
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap">______________________________________________________</SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><PRE class=moz-quote-pre wrap="">This is the Synth-diy mailing list
Submit email to: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:Synth-diy@synth-diy.org">Synth-diy@synth-diy.org</A>
View archive at: <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="https://synth-diy.org/pipermail/synth-diy/">https://synth-diy.org/pipermail/synth-diy/</A>
Check your settings at: <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="https://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy">https://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy</A>
Selling or trading? Use <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:marketplace@synth-diy.org">marketplace@synth-diy.org</A>
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>________________________________________________________<BR>This
is the Synth-diy mailing list<BR>Submit email to: <A
href="mailto:Synth-diy@synth-diy.org">Synth-diy@synth-diy.org</A><BR>View
archive at: <A
href="https://synth-diy.org/pipermail/synth-diy/">https://synth-diy.org/pipermail/synth-diy/</A><BR>Check
your settings at: <A
href="https://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy">https://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy</A><BR>Selling
or trading? Use <A
href="mailto:marketplace@synth-diy.org">marketplace@synth-diy.org</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>