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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
ok, that video link below, I hadn't seen that myself before. He
did find a bunch of problems with that. That it won't really have
that bandwidth (which for analog-only SDIY is less relevant) is
not so surprising.<br>
For 10 bucks more... The rubber buttons look better usable than
the film keys on the model you named, never liked stuff like that<br>
<br>
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Hrm! Thanks for that list (and the OP might hopefully find it
interesting, too)<br>
<br>
This:<br>
> Fnirsi 2031 - ready to use in 2s! Good enough user
interface, actually can't remember what's so bad about it.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://aliexpress.com/item/32919766071.html">https://aliexpress.com/item/32919766071.html</a><br>
<br>
Oh! For a couple bucks more, what an upgrade:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://aliexpress.com/item/33021370646.html">https://aliexpress.com/item/33021370646.html</a><br>
<br>
Fairly recent review by the exuberant aussie:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIH48bIUU00">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIH48bIUU00</a><br>
<br>
<br>
now even has me all ears. Just quickly checking something
without booting the damn regular scope... and looking at the
size, also not hauling the scope over there and no place to
actually put it, but impractical to get the thing to be looked
at to the bench...<br>
<br>
Fair point about the "trying out electronics". I guess one could
still sell a more expensive scope - unless one breaks it somehow
due to inexperience. Although in the beginning I broke a few
things with the scope, not the scope itself, due to the scope
GND clip briefly touching somewhere :D That thing just has some
mean unpredictable moves, esp. if it jumps off something it's
supposed to hold on to.<br>
<br>
<br>
- Steve<br>
<br>
Roman Sowa wrote:<br>
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<p>Even $10k scope has offsets, that's what autocalibration is
for.</p>
<p>Joy to use - probably not, as this is pocket size device.
Can't imagine knobs on such a thing. Either the
size/portability or ease of use. Trigger - exactly the basics
of trigger in low end analog scopes.</p>
<p>To have very good usable scope, there's at least $500 to
spend. Indeed for that price what you get is amazing, hard to
imagine what could anyone dream more for regular synth diy. If
someone is serious about entering into electronics DIY, then
go and buy Siglent SDS1000. But if not so sure yet, and the
budget is tight, there's no other choice than handheld toy
scopes.<br>
</p>
<p>For a beginner it's bad idea to buy any old gear in bad
shape. After all, how can they fix it if they are begginers,
right? And if they have someone around more skilled to fix it,
then the same person can borrow their equipment, or tech them,
or most of all personally recommend suitable gear. I doubt any
"skilled friend of a beginner" would like to fix such a thing
for a pack of beers.</p>
<p>And no, I haven't forgot how it was to be a beginner, I
clearly remember those days. Even clearer than what I was
doing last year. And I can't compare using toy scope to
playing violin while standing on one toe. That is more like
sitting on a sofa and playing PSP. Yes, I sometimes play with
such scope in similar way as other people waste their time
twiddling their phones.</p>
<p>All I'm saying, if someone makes simple circuit on a
breadboard, and it doesn't work, it's end of story. A
multimeter will not show a fraction of what a scope can do.
And maybe I'm patronizing now, but I bet that first circuit
made by total beginner might possibly not work the first time.
Without toy scope that means the circuit goes to garbage, and
disapointed beginner looses interest in electronics and
becomes fashion influencer or minecraft youtuber. What a loss.<br>
</p>
<p>Now to be more specific, my one-line comments about some
models:</p>
<p>DSO138 - unbelievably cheapest option, good for audio,
terrible use interface</p>
<p>DSO112A - touchscreen yeah! And sqr generator inlcuded. Much
better, but usable only in mid range of timebases</p>
<p>Fnirsi 2031 - ready to use in 2s! Good enough user interface,
actually can't remember what's so bad about it.</p>
<p>Fnirsi 1013 - if not one thing it would be the best handheld
scope ever created - it pretends to be low noise by some nasty
unpleasant trick. And it is way more outrageous than aliasing.
I'll share detailed findings if anyone's interested. But it's
slightly over $100 anyway.</p>
<p>There's so many more to try yet, but the above list presents
basicaly full range of them. Other popular variants like 150,
5012, 6100, 6020, 1C15, 1511 etc. always look similar (in
appearance, size and specs) to one of those listed here.<br>
</p>
<p>Roman<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">W dniu 2020-10-11 o 15:05, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:sleepy_dog@gmx.de">sleepy_dog@gmx.de</a> pisze:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:b11390b3-c4b2-2ef5-731d-7cc0af4f8882@gmx.de">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
I've seen some of those < 100 $ scope things that had DC
offsets, lacking coupling options, total garbage trigger
implementation and problems like that that make it not
exactly a joy to use, "entry level" or not.<br>
Haven't looked at them for years. If you have an extensive
collection as you say you are more likely to have come
across ones that are decent - but is that a neutral view of
the average implementation you are most likely to get, or
undue bias from the ones you did like and use?<br>
<br>
I guess one could make a list of "known usable" ones, but
such a list would become obsolete very quickly as things are
today with all this no name gear and endless copy of a copy
of a product, with the goal of further reducing the cost
while being able to sell the appearance of a known product
for a better margin.<br>
<br>
Sure, a old reputable-brand analog scope can be in bad
shape, totally decalibrated I guess - maybe in that regard
it's also risky to buy one as a beginner?<br>
Although sometimes they throw those out for (almost) nothing
:) If one who got such a thing could get some friendly EE to
look at it if it's basically OK...<br>
<br>
I'm not even saying specifically that alising thing really
affects anyone in reality, IDK, just wanted to thrown in a
bunch of possible examples of how one could add confusion or
other aspects that might deter a beginner.<br>
Maybe you forgot how it can be as a total beginner because
it's so long ago for you. Stepping into a field with a lot
of loose ends in the mind and trying to make some
connections and make abstract principles you just read about
become intuitive.<br>
Gear doing funny things, it seemed to me, could disrupt that
process. (sure, at some point, observing unexpected things
is important to learn beyond the clear cut introductory
textbook examples - but in the very beginning?)<br>
<br>
So the violin thing doesn't seem like a proper analogy.<br>
You want people to learn violin - but standing on one toe
instead of sitting on a chair.<br>
Bending a learning curve to your disadvantage is not
virtuous. The thing that is a virtue about putting in effort
to learn something is not the spending of the effort itself,
or scrubbing the floor with a toothbrush would be the most
virtuous thing ever.<br>
AGAIN - maybe my examples of problems with toy gear weren't
good... but I'm not sure they are the only possible problems
with these wild east products whose essence seems to be
fluctuating all the time.<br>
<br>
As you say, such gear are tools for thinkig humans - already
the good ones. Maybe bad gear is ramping up the difficulty
level?<br>
That's what I was trying to get at with maybe not the best
examples.<br>
<br>
OKAY, and perhaps I also just find it hard to believe that
some < 100 $ thing of that class of instruments can be
decent enough.<br>
Just a couple years ago a 500 $ scope was looked at with
suspicion, and I bought one due to lack of options ;) (and
it did have some issues)<br>
And I don't think I'm quite the oldest fella on this list
here - but it still seems just like yesterday. Ok, maybe I'm
starting to get old :D<br>
<br>
Sorry for the long and perhaps boring text.<br>
I just really do like to sort out how my perceptions came to
be as they are and them not aligning with the basic
sentiment put forth by you.<br>
I get it I'm only a lowly hobbyist, and worse, one that has
roughly a million other hobbies and just can't frickin stick
to one :D<br>
<br>
- Steve<br>
<br>
Roman Sowa wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:7e771399-6078-5ed8-64d2-d443c40193e0@go2.pl"
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<p>Yes, really.</p>
<p>Signal amplitude of interest is well covered. You don't
need 500V/div in a scope. Analog front end is adequate to
the scope bandwidth which go up to some 30MHz in those
toys. Maybe missing those 1mV/div settings in some models,
but who needs that for entry level DIY? The old analog
scopes were usually 5-20MHz and bandwidth was not the
weakest pont anyway. First 100MHz analog scope I saw was
big heavy and noisy Russian machine in mid 90's.</p>
<p>Aliasing in digital scopes is a thing and anybody using
it is aware of that. It's mentioned everytime someone says
"oscilloscope". I think a newbie first learns about
aliasing before knowing what an oscilloscope is. It's like
saying you can't work with high voltage because it can
shock you. There is no scope that prevents aliasing, no
such thing as antialias filtering in any scope, including
top range of top brands, because it's limiting and
useless. Just like there's no scope with a button "show me
what's wrong with this signal". A scope is a tool for
thinking human.</p>
<p>A violin will not play by itself either and if you don't
know how to play, it will only make terrible noises, even
if it's $1M Stradivari.</p>
<p>Roman<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">W dniu 2020-10-10 o 11:01, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:sleepy_dog@gmx.de">sleepy_dog@gmx.de</a>
pisze:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:d9d874d3-a377-1a04-4458-836b50e86676@gmx.de">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
> small toy scopes for below $100. And frankly they
are better than big 50kg scopes I had in school<br>
<br>
Really? Including the analog front end, signal amplitude
it can take, coupling options etc?<br>
And those old clunky analog scopes in school certainly
did not fool you with aliasing due to improper filtering
esp. when sample rate drops on long time base with
ridiculously low k(!)points memory depth (like also
"cheaper" *cough* Tek DSOs just a couple years ago),
making you see things that aren't there.<br>
Those below 100 bucks scopes also usually have a very
low sampling rate to start with, right?<br>
(don't "need" so high frequencies in synth DIY? Well,
the *intended* frequencies that your DIY circuits
*intentionally oscillate* at may perhaps not need
that... :D)<br>
Sure, he can watch a video like below and then know
about that one thing.<br>
It seems to me when entering a subject with a million
questionmarks, adding more confusing stuff one has to be
aware of might be disorienting.<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWADu0aKk0w"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWADu0aKk0w</a><br>
<br>
<br>
- Steve<br>
<br>
<br>
Roman Sowa wrote:<br>
</div>
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cite="mid:c84f1ab7-2752-8322-234c-0329fcee7726@go2.pl"
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<p>Totally agree.</p>
<p>What may not seem so obvious, there's a catch - when
you can afford all the fancy tools you dream of, then
suddenly your creativity drops down the floor. With
crappy tools you have to be more creative and think,
imagine, explore, experiment. For example soldering -
you have to learn how to solder anyhow, and cheap
soldering iron is not forgiving, so it will force you
to think what you're doing and be totally aware of
what to do in certain situations. I have bought my
first temperature controlled station about 20 years
after I started soldering. Only because of that I
could appreciate it. In case you wonder, yest it's
possible to succesfully solder SMD with transformer
soldering gun.<br>
</p>
<p>The scope is essential, I think even more than
multimeter, but today you can buy small toy scopes for
below $100. And frankly they are better than big 50kg
scopes I had in school. I have quite a few of those
toy scopes, this is my small addiction, so if you want
to ask about specific model, I probably have that.
Don't buy "best scope you can afford", or "scope
planned for the future". Those times are over. Now
there's new scope coming every year, cheaper and
better than others. After 2-3 years you'll know what
to look for, and it will be more GAS hitting than real
measurement needs. <br>
</p>
<p>It is very unpopular point of view here, but I think
modern digital scopes are much better that vintage
analog Tek.<br>
</p>
<p>Roman<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">W dniu 2020-10-10 o 01:49,
Peter Pearson pisze:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+qbVc-t_fBQG-Mi_-qs8Rzcdci_1VXBT_8XoAw3PTp9+twxUQ@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">While I agree that spending $1k will
definitely get you set up, we aren't all so lucky.
Especially when we're spending money made mowing
lawns or working minimum wage as a youngster. What
I meant was that a quality iron will really make the
biggest improvement. That plus an "it works fine"
multimeter and a working 20MHz oscilloscope used is
almost all you need (less parts but that's
subjective) to do some damage. Take the price point
down from $1k to something more like $200-$300 or
less and that's attainable for a lot of people.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Something like this:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HicV3Z6XLFA"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HicV3Z6XLFA</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>BUY USED!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You can work up to a $10k oscilloscope or
whatever once you <u>need</u> one.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 9,
2020 at 7:36 PM Benjamin Tremblay via Synth-diy
<<a href="mailto:synth-diy@synth-diy.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I learned this
stuff as a kid through trial, error, burned
fingers, and Radio Shack. I never had more than
ten or so dollars on hand, so no voltmeter, no
breadboard, no spools of wire. I remember building
the basic 556 “Atari punk console” circuit and
just thinking it made horrible noises nobody would
ever want to hear.<br>
After building light-controlled oscillators for a
year, I started checking out books at Colorado
State University. The ancient books were the best:
Musique Concrète and this book written in Spanish
from the 1940s showing how a film loop generating
optical pulses going into a modulator circuit
could be what we call a drum machine. My mother
told me about the Telharmonium in Worcester MA she
read about in Yankee Magazine. I built a Theremin
using an oscillator and an AM radio, and realized
it would be easier to master the violin than to
get a melody out of a Theremin. Then I found the
1970s books from UCLA on what we now call West
Coast Synthesis. When I got to the log tables in
the middle of the book I knew I couldn’t follow
it; if music was math, music was not for me. <br>
It took a couple of years of futility to realize I
had to try again.<br>
Paia was so inspirational, yet at the same time I
felt the kits were full of design compromises that
left me in the dark about best practices. (I
remember testing the Gnome after my brother put it
together and we both thought it was broken; but it
was just the T filter doing its crappy T filter
thing.)<br>
Then I was gifted a broken Paia Proteus when I was
a junior in high school. Fixing that beautiful
machine gave me a new appreciation for Paia.<br>
<br>
Paia turned me onto Don Lancaster and Craig
Anderton (as editor of Electronic Musician). <br>
After I got my hands on the books by Bryce Ward
and Barry Klein, I really wanted to do this stuff,
but I had no way to earn a living, and neither the
math nor the music.<br>
<br>
How long does one have to live before you just
start doing what you love? <br>
<br>
Benjamin Tremblay<br>
<br>
> On Oct 9, 2020, at 6:53 PM, Benjamin Tremblay
via Synth-diy <<a
href="mailto:Synth-diy@synth-diy.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
<br>
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