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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
Hrm! Thanks for that list (and the OP might hopefully find it
interesting, too)<br>
<br>
This:<br>
> Fnirsi 2031 - ready to use in 2s! Good enough user interface,
actually can't remember what's so bad about it.<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://aliexpress.com/item/32919766071.html">https://aliexpress.com/item/32919766071.html</a><br>
<br>
Oh! For a couple bucks more, what an upgrade:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://aliexpress.com/item/33021370646.html">https://aliexpress.com/item/33021370646.html</a><br>
<br>
Fairly recent review by the exuberant aussie:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIH48bIUU00">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIH48bIUU00</a><br>
<br>
<br>
now even has me all ears. Just quickly checking something without
booting the damn regular scope... and looking at the size, also
not hauling the scope over there and no place to actually put it,
but impractical to get the thing to be looked at to the bench...<br>
<br>
Fair point about the "trying out electronics". I guess one could
still sell a more expensive scope - unless one breaks it somehow
due to inexperience. Although in the beginning I broke a few
things with the scope, not the scope itself, due to the scope GND
clip briefly touching somewhere :D That thing just has some mean
unpredictable moves, esp. if it jumps off something it's supposed
to hold on to.<br>
<br>
<br>
- Steve<br>
<br>
Roman Sowa wrote:<br>
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<blockquote cite="mid:18adba6e-845a-83f0-ec27-9a26265e9ec4@go2.pl"
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<p>Even $10k scope has offsets, that's what autocalibration is
for.</p>
<p>Joy to use - probably not, as this is pocket size device. Can't
imagine knobs on such a thing. Either the size/portability or
ease of use. Trigger - exactly the basics of trigger in low end
analog scopes.</p>
<p>To have very good usable scope, there's at least $500 to spend.
Indeed for that price what you get is amazing, hard to imagine
what could anyone dream more for regular synth diy. If someone
is serious about entering into electronics DIY, then go and buy
Siglent SDS1000. But if not so sure yet, and the budget is
tight, there's no other choice than handheld toy scopes.<br>
</p>
<p>For a beginner it's bad idea to buy any old gear in bad shape.
After all, how can they fix it if they are begginers, right? And
if they have someone around more skilled to fix it, then the
same person can borrow their equipment, or tech them, or most of
all personally recommend suitable gear. I doubt any "skilled
friend of a beginner" would like to fix such a thing for a pack
of beers.</p>
<p>And no, I haven't forgot how it was to be a beginner, I clearly
remember those days. Even clearer than what I was doing last
year. And I can't compare using toy scope to playing violin
while standing on one toe. That is more like sitting on a sofa
and playing PSP. Yes, I sometimes play with such scope in
similar way as other people waste their time twiddling their
phones.</p>
<p>All I'm saying, if someone makes simple circuit on a
breadboard, and it doesn't work, it's end of story. A multimeter
will not show a fraction of what a scope can do. And maybe I'm
patronizing now, but I bet that first circuit made by total
beginner might possibly not work the first time. Without toy
scope that means the circuit goes to garbage, and disapointed
beginner looses interest in electronics and becomes fashion
influencer or minecraft youtuber. What a loss.<br>
</p>
<p>Now to be more specific, my one-line comments about some
models:</p>
<p>DSO138 - unbelievably cheapest option, good for audio, terrible
use interface</p>
<p>DSO112A - touchscreen yeah! And sqr generator inlcuded. Much
better, but usable only in mid range of timebases</p>
<p>Fnirsi 2031 - ready to use in 2s! Good enough user interface,
actually can't remember what's so bad about it.</p>
<p>Fnirsi 1013 - if not one thing it would be the best handheld
scope ever created - it pretends to be low noise by some nasty
unpleasant trick. And it is way more outrageous than aliasing.
I'll share detailed findings if anyone's interested. But it's
slightly over $100 anyway.</p>
<p>There's so many more to try yet, but the above list presents
basicaly full range of them. Other popular variants like 150,
5012, 6100, 6020, 1C15, 1511 etc. always look similar (in
appearance, size and specs) to one of those listed here.<br>
</p>
<p>Roman<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">W dniu 2020-10-11 o 15:05, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:sleepy_dog@gmx.de">sleepy_dog@gmx.de</a> pisze:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:b11390b3-c4b2-2ef5-731d-7cc0af4f8882@gmx.de">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
I've seen some of those < 100 $ scope things that had DC
offsets, lacking coupling options, total garbage trigger
implementation and problems like that that make it not exactly
a joy to use, "entry level" or not.<br>
Haven't looked at them for years. If you have an extensive
collection as you say you are more likely to have come across
ones that are decent - but is that a neutral view of the
average implementation you are most likely to get, or undue
bias from the ones you did like and use?<br>
<br>
I guess one could make a list of "known usable" ones, but such
a list would become obsolete very quickly as things are today
with all this no name gear and endless copy of a copy of a
product, with the goal of further reducing the cost while
being able to sell the appearance of a known product for a
better margin.<br>
<br>
Sure, a old reputable-brand analog scope can be in bad shape,
totally decalibrated I guess - maybe in that regard it's also
risky to buy one as a beginner?<br>
Although sometimes they throw those out for (almost) nothing
:) If one who got such a thing could get some friendly EE to
look at it if it's basically OK...<br>
<br>
I'm not even saying specifically that alising thing really
affects anyone in reality, IDK, just wanted to thrown in a
bunch of possible examples of how one could add confusion or
other aspects that might deter a beginner.<br>
Maybe you forgot how it can be as a total beginner because
it's so long ago for you. Stepping into a field with a lot of
loose ends in the mind and trying to make some connections and
make abstract principles you just read about become intuitive.<br>
Gear doing funny things, it seemed to me, could disrupt that
process. (sure, at some point, observing unexpected things is
important to learn beyond the clear cut introductory textbook
examples - but in the very beginning?)<br>
<br>
So the violin thing doesn't seem like a proper analogy.<br>
You want people to learn violin - but standing on one toe
instead of sitting on a chair.<br>
Bending a learning curve to your disadvantage is not virtuous.
The thing that is a virtue about putting in effort to learn
something is not the spending of the effort itself, or
scrubbing the floor with a toothbrush would be the most
virtuous thing ever.<br>
AGAIN - maybe my examples of problems with toy gear weren't
good... but I'm not sure they are the only possible problems
with these wild east products whose essence seems to be
fluctuating all the time.<br>
<br>
As you say, such gear are tools for thinkig humans - already
the good ones. Maybe bad gear is ramping up the difficulty
level?<br>
That's what I was trying to get at with maybe not the best
examples.<br>
<br>
OKAY, and perhaps I also just find it hard to believe that
some < 100 $ thing of that class of instruments can be
decent enough.<br>
Just a couple years ago a 500 $ scope was looked at with
suspicion, and I bought one due to lack of options ;) (and it
did have some issues)<br>
And I don't think I'm quite the oldest fella on this list here
- but it still seems just like yesterday. Ok, maybe I'm
starting to get old :D<br>
<br>
Sorry for the long and perhaps boring text.<br>
I just really do like to sort out how my perceptions came to
be as they are and them not aligning with the basic sentiment
put forth by you.<br>
I get it I'm only a lowly hobbyist, and worse, one that has
roughly a million other hobbies and just can't frickin stick
to one :D<br>
<br>
- Steve<br>
<br>
Roman Sowa wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:7e771399-6078-5ed8-64d2-d443c40193e0@go2.pl"
type="cite">
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<p>Yes, really.</p>
<p>Signal amplitude of interest is well covered. You don't
need 500V/div in a scope. Analog front end is adequate to
the scope bandwidth which go up to some 30MHz in those toys.
Maybe missing those 1mV/div settings in some models, but who
needs that for entry level DIY? The old analog scopes were
usually 5-20MHz and bandwidth was not the weakest pont
anyway. First 100MHz analog scope I saw was big heavy and
noisy Russian machine in mid 90's.</p>
<p>Aliasing in digital scopes is a thing and anybody using it
is aware of that. It's mentioned everytime someone says
"oscilloscope". I think a newbie first learns about aliasing
before knowing what an oscilloscope is. It's like saying you
can't work with high voltage because it can shock you. There
is no scope that prevents aliasing, no such thing as
antialias filtering in any scope, including top range of top
brands, because it's limiting and useless. Just like there's
no scope with a button "show me what's wrong with this
signal". A scope is a tool for thinking human.</p>
<p>A violin will not play by itself either and if you don't
know how to play, it will only make terrible noises, even if
it's $1M Stradivari.</p>
<p>Roman<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">W dniu 2020-10-10 o 11:01, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:sleepy_dog@gmx.de">sleepy_dog@gmx.de</a>
pisze:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:d9d874d3-a377-1a04-4458-836b50e86676@gmx.de">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
> small toy scopes for below $100. And frankly they are
better than big 50kg scopes I had in school<br>
<br>
Really? Including the analog front end, signal amplitude
it can take, coupling options etc?<br>
And those old clunky analog scopes in school certainly did
not fool you with aliasing due to improper filtering esp.
when sample rate drops on long time base with ridiculously
low k(!)points memory depth (like also "cheaper" *cough*
Tek DSOs just a couple years ago), making you see things
that aren't there.<br>
Those below 100 bucks scopes also usually have a very low
sampling rate to start with, right?<br>
(don't "need" so high frequencies in synth DIY? Well, the
*intended* frequencies that your DIY circuits
*intentionally oscillate* at may perhaps not need that...
:D)<br>
Sure, he can watch a video like below and then know about
that one thing.<br>
It seems to me when entering a subject with a million
questionmarks, adding more confusing stuff one has to be
aware of might be disorienting.<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWADu0aKk0w"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWADu0aKk0w</a><br>
<br>
<br>
- Steve<br>
<br>
<br>
Roman Sowa wrote:<br>
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<p>Totally agree.</p>
<p>What may not seem so obvious, there's a catch - when
you can afford all the fancy tools you dream of, then
suddenly your creativity drops down the floor. With
crappy tools you have to be more creative and think,
imagine, explore, experiment. For example soldering -
you have to learn how to solder anyhow, and cheap
soldering iron is not forgiving, so it will force you to
think what you're doing and be totally aware of what to
do in certain situations. I have bought my first
temperature controlled station about 20 years after I
started soldering. Only because of that I could
appreciate it. In case you wonder, yest it's possible to
succesfully solder SMD with transformer soldering gun.<br>
</p>
<p>The scope is essential, I think even more than
multimeter, but today you can buy small toy scopes for
below $100. And frankly they are better than big 50kg
scopes I had in school. I have quite a few of those toy
scopes, this is my small addiction, so if you want to
ask about specific model, I probably have that. Don't
buy "best scope you can afford", or "scope planned for
the future". Those times are over. Now there's new scope
coming every year, cheaper and better than others. After
2-3 years you'll know what to look for, and it will be
more GAS hitting than real measurement needs. <br>
</p>
<p>It is very unpopular point of view here, but I think
modern digital scopes are much better that vintage
analog Tek.<br>
</p>
<p>Roman<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">W dniu 2020-10-10 o 01:49,
Peter Pearson pisze:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+qbVc-t_fBQG-Mi_-qs8Rzcdci_1VXBT_8XoAw3PTp9+twxUQ@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">While I agree that spending $1k will
definitely get you set up, we aren't all so lucky.
Especially when we're spending money made mowing lawns
or working minimum wage as a youngster. What I meant
was that a quality iron will really make the biggest
improvement. That plus an "it works fine" multimeter
and a working 20MHz oscilloscope used is almost all
you need (less parts but that's subjective) to do some
damage. Take the price point down from $1k to
something more like $200-$300 or less and that's
attainable for a lot of people.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Something like this:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HicV3Z6XLFA"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HicV3Z6XLFA</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>BUY USED!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You can work up to a $10k oscilloscope or
whatever once you <u>need</u> one.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 9, 2020
at 7:36 PM Benjamin Tremblay via Synth-diy <<a
href="mailto:synth-diy@synth-diy.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I learned this
stuff as a kid through trial, error, burned fingers,
and Radio Shack. I never had more than ten or so
dollars on hand, so no voltmeter, no breadboard, no
spools of wire. I remember building the basic 556
“Atari punk console” circuit and just thinking it
made horrible noises nobody would ever want to hear.<br>
After building light-controlled oscillators for a
year, I started checking out books at Colorado State
University. The ancient books were the best: Musique
Concrète and this book written in Spanish from the
1940s showing how a film loop generating optical
pulses going into a modulator circuit could be what
we call a drum machine. My mother told me about the
Telharmonium in Worcester MA she read about in
Yankee Magazine. I built a Theremin using an
oscillator and an AM radio, and realized it would be
easier to master the violin than to get a melody out
of a Theremin. Then I found the 1970s books from
UCLA on what we now call West Coast Synthesis. When
I got to the log tables in the middle of the book I
knew I couldn’t follow it; if music was math, music
was not for me. <br>
It took a couple of years of futility to realize I
had to try again.<br>
Paia was so inspirational, yet at the same time I
felt the kits were full of design compromises that
left me in the dark about best practices. (I
remember testing the Gnome after my brother put it
together and we both thought it was broken; but it
was just the T filter doing its crappy T filter
thing.)<br>
Then I was gifted a broken Paia Proteus when I was a
junior in high school. Fixing that beautiful machine
gave me a new appreciation for Paia.<br>
<br>
Paia turned me onto Don Lancaster and Craig Anderton
(as editor of Electronic Musician). <br>
After I got my hands on the books by Bryce Ward and
Barry Klein, I really wanted to do this stuff, but I
had no way to earn a living, and neither the math
nor the music.<br>
<br>
How long does one have to live before you just start
doing what you love? <br>
<br>
Benjamin Tremblay<br>
<br>
> On Oct 9, 2020, at 6:53 PM, Benjamin Tremblay
via Synth-diy <<a
href="mailto:Synth-diy@synth-diy.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
<br>
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