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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
I've seen some of those < 100 $ scope things that had DC
offsets, lacking coupling options, total garbage trigger
implementation and problems like that that make it not exactly a
joy to use, "entry level" or not.<br>
Haven't looked at them for years. If you have an extensive
collection as you say you are more likely to have come across ones
that are decent - but is that a neutral view of the average
implementation you are most likely to get, or undue bias from the
ones you did like and use?<br>
<br>
I guess one could make a list of "known usable" ones, but such a
list would become obsolete very quickly as things are today with
all this no name gear and endless copy of a copy of a product,
with the goal of further reducing the cost while being able to
sell the appearance of a known product for a better margin.<br>
<br>
Sure, a old reputable-brand analog scope can be in bad shape,
totally decalibrated I guess - maybe in that regard it's also
risky to buy one as a beginner?<br>
Although sometimes they throw those out for (almost) nothing :) If
one who got such a thing could get some friendly EE to look at it
if it's basically OK...<br>
<br>
I'm not even saying specifically that alising thing really affects
anyone in reality, IDK, just wanted to thrown in a bunch of
possible examples of how one could add confusion or other aspects
that might deter a beginner.<br>
Maybe you forgot how it can be as a total beginner because it's so
long ago for you. Stepping into a field with a lot of loose ends
in the mind and trying to make some connections and make abstract
principles you just read about become intuitive.<br>
Gear doing funny things, it seemed to me, could disrupt that
process. (sure, at some point, observing unexpected things is
important to learn beyond the clear cut introductory textbook
examples - but in the very beginning?)<br>
<br>
So the violin thing doesn't seem like a proper analogy.<br>
You want people to learn violin - but standing on one toe instead
of sitting on a chair.<br>
Bending a learning curve to your disadvantage is not virtuous. The
thing that is a virtue about putting in effort to learn something
is not the spending of the effort itself, or scrubbing the floor
with a toothbrush would be the most virtuous thing ever.<br>
AGAIN - maybe my examples of problems with toy gear weren't
good... but I'm not sure they are the only possible problems with
these wild east products whose essence seems to be fluctuating all
the time.<br>
<br>
As you say, such gear are tools for thinkig humans - already the
good ones. Maybe bad gear is ramping up the difficulty level?<br>
That's what I was trying to get at with maybe not the best
examples.<br>
<br>
OKAY, and perhaps I also just find it hard to believe that some
< 100 $ thing of that class of instruments can be decent
enough.<br>
Just a couple years ago a 500 $ scope was looked at with
suspicion, and I bought one due to lack of options ;) (and it did
have some issues)<br>
And I don't think I'm quite the oldest fella on this list here -
but it still seems just like yesterday. Ok, maybe I'm starting to
get old :D<br>
<br>
Sorry for the long and perhaps boring text.<br>
I just really do like to sort out how my perceptions came to be as
they are and them not aligning with the basic sentiment put forth
by you.<br>
I get it I'm only a lowly hobbyist, and worse, one that has
roughly a million other hobbies and just can't frickin stick to
one :D<br>
<br>
- Steve<br>
<br>
Roman Sowa wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:7e771399-6078-5ed8-64d2-d443c40193e0@go2.pl"
type="cite">
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<p>Yes, really.</p>
<p>Signal amplitude of interest is well covered. You don't need
500V/div in a scope. Analog front end is adequate to the scope
bandwidth which go up to some 30MHz in those toys. Maybe missing
those 1mV/div settings in some models, but who needs that for
entry level DIY? The old analog scopes were usually 5-20MHz and
bandwidth was not the weakest pont anyway. First 100MHz analog
scope I saw was big heavy and noisy Russian machine in mid 90's.</p>
<p>Aliasing in digital scopes is a thing and anybody using it is
aware of that. It's mentioned everytime someone says
"oscilloscope". I think a newbie first learns about aliasing
before knowing what an oscilloscope is. It's like saying you
can't work with high voltage because it can shock you. There is
no scope that prevents aliasing, no such thing as antialias
filtering in any scope, including top range of top brands,
because it's limiting and useless. Just like there's no scope
with a button "show me what's wrong with this signal". A scope
is a tool for thinking human.</p>
<p>A violin will not play by itself either and if you don't know
how to play, it will only make terrible noises, even if it's $1M
Stradivari.</p>
<p>Roman<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">W dniu 2020-10-10 o 11:01, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:sleepy_dog@gmx.de">sleepy_dog@gmx.de</a> pisze:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:d9d874d3-a377-1a04-4458-836b50e86676@gmx.de">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
> small toy scopes for below $100. And frankly they are
better than big 50kg scopes I had in school<br>
<br>
Really? Including the analog front end, signal amplitude it
can take, coupling options etc?<br>
And those old clunky analog scopes in school certainly did not
fool you with aliasing due to improper filtering esp. when
sample rate drops on long time base with ridiculously low
k(!)points memory depth (like also "cheaper" *cough* Tek DSOs
just a couple years ago), making you see things that aren't
there.<br>
Those below 100 bucks scopes also usually have a very low
sampling rate to start with, right?<br>
(don't "need" so high frequencies in synth DIY? Well, the
*intended* frequencies that your DIY circuits *intentionally
oscillate* at may perhaps not need that... :D)<br>
Sure, he can watch a video like below and then know about that
one thing.<br>
It seems to me when entering a subject with a million
questionmarks, adding more confusing stuff one has to be aware
of might be disorienting.<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWADu0aKk0w"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWADu0aKk0w</a><br>
<br>
<br>
- Steve<br>
<br>
<br>
Roman Sowa wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:c84f1ab7-2752-8322-234c-0329fcee7726@go2.pl"
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<p>Totally agree.</p>
<p>What may not seem so obvious, there's a catch - when you
can afford all the fancy tools you dream of, then suddenly
your creativity drops down the floor. With crappy tools you
have to be more creative and think, imagine, explore,
experiment. For example soldering - you have to learn how to
solder anyhow, and cheap soldering iron is not forgiving, so
it will force you to think what you're doing and be totally
aware of what to do in certain situations. I have bought my
first temperature controlled station about 20 years after I
started soldering. Only because of that I could appreciate
it. In case you wonder, yest it's possible to succesfully
solder SMD with transformer soldering gun.<br>
</p>
<p>The scope is essential, I think even more than multimeter,
but today you can buy small toy scopes for below $100. And
frankly they are better than big 50kg scopes I had in
school. I have quite a few of those toy scopes, this is my
small addiction, so if you want to ask about specific model,
I probably have that. Don't buy "best scope you can afford",
or "scope planned for the future". Those times are over. Now
there's new scope coming every year, cheaper and better than
others. After 2-3 years you'll know what to look for, and it
will be more GAS hitting than real measurement needs. <br>
</p>
<p>It is very unpopular point of view here, but I think modern
digital scopes are much better that vintage analog Tek.<br>
</p>
<p>Roman<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">W dniu 2020-10-10 o 01:49, Peter
Pearson pisze:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+qbVc-t_fBQG-Mi_-qs8Rzcdci_1VXBT_8XoAw3PTp9+twxUQ@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">While I agree that spending $1k will
definitely get you set up, we aren't all so lucky.
Especially when we're spending money made mowing lawns or
working minimum wage as a youngster. What I meant was
that a quality iron will really make the biggest
improvement. That plus an "it works fine" multimeter and
a working 20MHz oscilloscope used is almost all you need
(less parts but that's subjective) to do some damage.
Take the price point down from $1k to something more like
$200-$300 or less and that's attainable for a lot of
people.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Something like this:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HicV3Z6XLFA"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HicV3Z6XLFA</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>BUY USED!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You can work up to a $10k oscilloscope or whatever
once you <u>need</u> one.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at
7:36 PM Benjamin Tremblay via Synth-diy <<a
href="mailto:synth-diy@synth-diy.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I learned this stuff
as a kid through trial, error, burned fingers, and Radio
Shack. I never had more than ten or so dollars on hand,
so no voltmeter, no breadboard, no spools of wire. I
remember building the basic 556 “Atari punk console”
circuit and just thinking it made horrible noises nobody
would ever want to hear.<br>
After building light-controlled oscillators for a year,
I started checking out books at Colorado State
University. The ancient books were the best: Musique
Concrète and this book written in Spanish from the 1940s
showing how a film loop generating optical pulses going
into a modulator circuit could be what we call a drum
machine. My mother told me about the Telharmonium in
Worcester MA she read about in Yankee Magazine. I built
a Theremin using an oscillator and an AM radio, and
realized it would be easier to master the violin than to
get a melody out of a Theremin. Then I found the 1970s
books from UCLA on what we now call West Coast
Synthesis. When I got to the log tables in the middle of
the book I knew I couldn’t follow it; if music was math,
music was not for me. <br>
It took a couple of years of futility to realize I had
to try again.<br>
Paia was so inspirational, yet at the same time I felt
the kits were full of design compromises that left me in
the dark about best practices. (I remember testing the
Gnome after my brother put it together and we both
thought it was broken; but it was just the T filter
doing its crappy T filter thing.)<br>
Then I was gifted a broken Paia Proteus when I was a
junior in high school. Fixing that beautiful machine
gave me a new appreciation for Paia.<br>
<br>
Paia turned me onto Don Lancaster and Craig Anderton (as
editor of Electronic Musician). <br>
After I got my hands on the books by Bryce Ward and
Barry Klein, I really wanted to do this stuff, but I had
no way to earn a living, and neither the math nor the
music.<br>
<br>
How long does one have to live before you just start
doing what you love? <br>
<br>
Benjamin Tremblay<br>
<br>
> On Oct 9, 2020, at 6:53 PM, Benjamin Tremblay via
Synth-diy <<a href="mailto:Synth-diy@synth-diy.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Synth-diy@synth-diy.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
<br>
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