<div dir="ltr">oh, I didnt notice JH shared his schemos, and some sound clips there, too.<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:05 PM ColinMuirDorward <<a href="mailto:colindorward@gmail.com">colindorward@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Ok, I see now why I've never heard of this dome filter aka phase shift network, because it's patented/protected material. <br></div><div>Tom, do you have any audio clips to share?</div><div><br></div><div>Re the maths, what's the quickest route to get there? I just wrapped up ten years of art school, maybe it's time I got a real education now.</div><div><br></div><div>C<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:44 PM David G Dixon <<a href="mailto:dixon@mail.ubc.ca" target="_blank">dixon@mail.ubc.ca</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
<u></u>
<u></u>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I’d be lost without the maths. I always
derive the transfer functions of any filters I design, for example, and I have
found that to be invaluable.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma"> Synth-diy
[mailto:<a href="mailto:synth-diy-bounces@synth-diy.org" target="_blank">synth-diy-bounces@synth-diy.org</a>] <b><span style="font-weight:bold">On
Behalf Of </span></b>Tom Bugs<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, March 11, 2020
12:49 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> *SYNTH DIY<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [sdiy] frequency
shifter</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Don't
feel you *have* to get tangled up in maths - I could do maths up through my
technical university course, but frankly it never conveyed spirit to me & I
rarely go anywhere deep with it in any of my designing.<br>
I was also going to suggest looking up the CGS Dome Filter (the phase shift
network mentioned) but don't think schematics were presented - it does,
however, state the Electronotes article I referred to - #83<br>
<a href="https://sdiy.info/wiki/CGS_dome_filter" target="_blank">https://sdiy.info/wiki/CGS_dome_filter</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">On 11/03/2020 15:22, ColinMuirDorward wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">I'm still working on these replies, folks, thanks for the discussion! <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">OK, TBH, I'm pretty lost. It's probably beyond me without having the
math. Is it anything like barber-poling a series of APF filters?<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:43 AM Quincas Moreira <<a href="mailto:quincas@gmail.com" target="_blank">quincas@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">This is a celebrated one, by JHaible. I have the pcb, waiting for the
day when i’ll have time to source the parts... <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><a href="http://jhaible.com/legacy/frequency_shifter_fs1a/fs1a" target="_blank">http://jhaible.com/legacy/frequency_shifter_fs1a/fs1a</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Sent from my iPhone<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">On 11 Mar 2020, at 4:11,
Tom Bugs <<a href="mailto:admin@bugbrand.co.uk" target="_blank">admin@bugbrand.co.uk</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">My brain
is not awake enough to closely follow Dave's description! But I remember
there's a good basis in an old Electronotes - I didn't follow it exactly by any
stretch but it really helped me design my own, the theory I took being:<br>
1) make a quadrature sine/cosine VCO<br>
2) audio input splits to two 6-stage all-pass filter<br>
3) each filter-chain is followed by a RingMod/Multiplier with the modulating
input coming one from sine / one from cosine<br>
4) then you do sum & difference of the two ring mods to get up & down
shifts.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">What I
really enjoyed was adding feedback! In fact, redeveloping the ideas at the
moment & adding in a bit of extra control + output mixing/panning. Really
great audio processor, even at LFO rates where it becomes a wonderful phaser
type machine.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">On 11/03/2020 07:28, David G Dixon wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I built a frequency shifter following the Bode plan. This is
frequency shifting by manifesting certain trigonometric product-to-sum formulae
using electronic circuits:</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="PT-BR">sin u sin v = 0.5 [cos(u – v) – cos (u + v)]</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="PT-BR"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="PT-BR">cos u cos v = 0.5 [cos(u – v) + cos (u + v)]</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="PT-BR"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">So, if you have two signals with their 90-degree quadrature signals
(say, u is the audio you want to shift and v is the on-board quadrature
oscillator), then if you multiply the signals together (using a four-quadrant
multiplier) and also multiply their quadrature signals together (using a second
four-quadrant multiplier) then you can sum the multiplier outputs together, and
you will get the following (by adding the two equations together):</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">cos (u – v)</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">This represents the audio signal u which has been frequency-shifted
downward by the frequency of the oscillator signal v. Of course, the
audio signal probably has many frequencies u occurring simultaneously, and they
will all be shifted down by v. That’s what makes frequency shifting sound
so alien and weird.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">By being clever with the summations of the multiplier output signals
(based on a little bit of algebra), you can also recover the up-shifted audio:</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">cos (u + v) </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">With both the down- and up-shifted signals, you can get a stereo
effect.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">The entire circuit consists of a 90-degree phase displacement
network to generate the cosine of the incoming audio (I designed mine with 12
stages from 15 Hz to 15 kHz using a little thing I found on the internet called
QuadNet), a quadrature oscillator to generate both sine and cosine waves at
frequency v (mine is TZFM and consists of two Rubicon cores with sine shapers,
with one syncing the other in such a way that the two are always 90 degrees out
of phase), two four-quadrant multipliers (I built a dual unit from a single
2164 chip – two linearized VCAs), and a couple of output amplifier stages for
doing the summing. The key to success is to AC couple the signals into
the multipliers to eliminate DC offsets in the incoming signal, which is the
single largest source of error in the circuit. If that is done properly,
the multipliers require no trimming (if accurate summing resistors are chosen).</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">The circuit works great and sounds super freaky. I’m
going to be building another one for one of our members here shortly.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma"> Synth-diy [<a href="mailto:synth-diy-bounces@synth-diy.org" target="_blank">mailto:synth-diy-bounces@synth-diy.org</a>] <b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>ColinMuirDorward<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 10, 2020 7:01
PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> *SYNTH DIY<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> [sdiy] frequency shifter</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times\00000a""> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Hi, I got a little
lost trying to understand what a frequency shifter is. I mean the pre-digital
method used by Moog (I think?).<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">I recently built a
4pole APF, and was really impressed with some of the pitching effects I could
achieve with it. I'm guessing this is an entirely different method than the
frequency shifters like Moog and JH have done.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Is the APF method
used by anyone? What are its limitations, and what is it even doing? <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Well, I guess I'm
just looking for some conversation on the topic of analog frequency/pitch
shifting methods. If anyone has any thoughts/experience they'd like to share.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Colin<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br>
-- <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<pre cols="72"><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt">-- <u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt">BugBrand LTD<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><u></u><u></u><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt">UK</span></font><u></u><u></u> company No. 07199808<u></u><u></u></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt">VAT No. GB 988 2629 57<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt">1 Ninetree Hill<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><u></u><u></u><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt">BRISTOL</span></font><u></u><u></u> BS1 3SB<u></u><u></u></pre><pre><u></u><u></u><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt">United Kingdom</span></font><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="http://www.bugbrand.co.uk" target="_blank">www.bugbrand.co.uk</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre></div>
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