[sdiy] Ray tracing hardware for audio simulation

[Eric Honour]

> For vocals specifically, if monitoring with IEMs, you have essentially
> no leeway if this study is to be believed. It seems plausible that
> hearing your own voice piped straight into your ears on a short delay
> would feel unsettling at the very least.

My understanding is that often the most useful vocal monitor mix is "plain
but with a bit more reverb than the audience should get".  If that's true,
a fix might be to send _only_ the reverbed signal, so any delay induced by
the monitor system "sounds like" predelay.

On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 9:48 AM Guy McCusker via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> Ahh, the AES paper referred to in that article, which may be found
> here: http://jd-xlabs.com/AES_Latency.pdf is quite interesting.
>
> For vocals specifically, if monitoring with IEMs, you have essentially
> no leeway if this study is to be believed. It seems plausible that
> hearing your own voice piped straight into your ears on a short delay
> would feel unsettling at the very least.
>
> On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 2:24 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > There's hundreds of articles and papers to the AES on this if you
> Google.  Opinions vary but this is one of the more simplistic ones I refer
> people to when they complain as it puts the ball back in their court.
> >
> >
> https://www.churchproduction.com/education/latency-and-its-affect-on-performers/
> >
> > As you can see, once you have a wireless microphone and a wireless
> monitor together with a digital mixer (usually an X32 nowadays - they are
> just everywhere even though the WING was supposed to replace it)  then you
> really have no margin left and the singers will already be noticing the
> effects of the delay.  And there's often nothing you can really do about it
> of course other than go and buy an old Midas or Soundcraft analogue mixer
> and a lot of cables for a separate monitor system like in the old days :-)
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
> Guy McCusker via Synth-diy
> > Sent: 02 August 2022 14:08
> > To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Ray tracing hardware for audio simulation
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 1, 2022 at 2:41 PM Matthew Skala via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Mon, 1 Aug 2022, Mike Bryant wrote:
> > > > 1mS delay is too much for live voice processing so they need to work
> > > > on
> > >
> > > Move the speaker a foot closer to the listener
> >
> > I was intrigued by the discussion around the significance of such small
> latency and started reading about human's ability to perceive such timing
> differences. Some internet searches led me to the Haas effect, aka
> precedence effect, as described e.g. here
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedence_effect
> >
> > I found it quite interesting to play around with adding a few ms of
> delay to one channel of an audio track and listening to the effect.
> > For me, anything up to 40ms, and a bit more in fact, manifested itself
> as a shift in the perceived location of some of the sounds. High
> frequencies in particular seemed to shift left as I made the right channel
> play later. I did not perceive the two tracks as being offset from one
> another at all. Beyond 40ms delay the two tracks did begin to separate and
> sound like a very short echo. If you have not experienced this before it's
> quite an interesting use of a few minutes! I am starting to think that this
> is also the reason that manufacturers of hifi speakers recommend placing
> the speakers a couple of feet away from walls for a "wider soundstage" --
> reflections will cause this kind of effect and spread out the perceived
> location of the sound; presumably at the cost of a weird frequency response
> thanks to cancellations. If someone here knows more about this stuff I'd be
> glad for any good references to read up on it.
> >
> > On the topic of avoiding latency, the above strongly suggests that 1ms
> here or there is not a problem. But that does not mean you should not try
> to avoid introducing latency if you can. These systems will be chained
> together, latencies will add up, and uncontrolled latency can't be a good
> thing, especially if you don't know which paths have what latency. So it
> seems smart for engineers to keep it down as much as they can, and it is
> obvious that manufacturers of low-latency products will trumpet that as a
> benefit, and others had better catch up.
> >
> > So I guess I agree with both Mike and Matthew, but Matthew's message
> made my day, as well as prompting me to look into this, which I have
> enjoyed. Thanks!
> >
> > Guy.
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