[sdiy] Starting Point?

[sleepy_dog at gmx.de]

ok, that video link below, I hadn't seen that myself before. He did find
a bunch of problems with that. That it won't really have that bandwidth
(which for analog-only SDIY is less relevant) is not so surprising.
For 10 bucks more... The rubber buttons look better usable than the film
keys on the model you named, never liked stuff like that

>
> Hrm! Thanks for that list (and the OP might hopefully find it
> interesting, too)
>
> This:
> > Fnirsi 2031 - ready to use in 2s! Good enough user interface,
> actually can't remember what's so bad about it.
> https://aliexpress.com/item/32919766071.html
>
> Oh! For a couple bucks more, what an upgrade:
> https://aliexpress.com/item/33021370646.html
>
> Fairly recent review by the exuberant aussie:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIH48bIUU00
>
>
> now even has me all ears. Just quickly checking something without
> booting the damn regular scope... and looking at the size, also not
> hauling the scope over there and no place to actually put it, but
> impractical to get the thing to be looked at to the bench...
>
> Fair point about the "trying out electronics". I guess one could still
> sell a more expensive scope - unless one breaks it somehow due to
> inexperience. Although in the beginning I broke a few things with the
> scope, not the scope itself, due to the scope GND clip briefly
> touching somewhere :D That thing just has some mean unpredictable
> moves, esp. if it jumps off something it's supposed to hold on to.
>
>
> - Steve
>
> Roman Sowa wrote:
>>
>> Even $10k scope has offsets, that's what autocalibration is for.
>>
>> Joy to use - probably not, as this is pocket size device. Can't
>> imagine knobs on such a thing. Either the size/portability or ease of
>> use. Trigger - exactly the basics of trigger in low end analog scopes.
>>
>> To have very good usable scope, there's at least $500 to spend.
>> Indeed for that price what you get is amazing, hard to imagine what
>> could anyone dream more for regular synth diy. If someone is serious
>> about entering into electronics DIY, then go and buy Siglent SDS1000.
>> But if not so sure yet, and the budget is tight, there's no other
>> choice than handheld toy scopes.
>>
>> For a beginner it's bad idea to buy any old gear in bad shape. After
>> all, how can they fix it if they are begginers, right? And if they
>> have someone around more skilled to fix it, then the same person can
>> borrow their equipment, or tech them, or most of all personally
>> recommend suitable gear. I doubt any "skilled friend of a beginner"
>> would like to fix such a thing for a pack of beers.
>>
>> And no, I haven't forgot how it was to be a beginner, I clearly
>> remember those days. Even clearer than what I was doing last year.
>> And I can't compare using toy scope to playing violin while standing
>> on one toe. That is more like sitting on a sofa and playing PSP. Yes,
>> I sometimes play with such scope in similar way as other people waste
>> their time twiddling their phones.
>>
>> All I'm saying, if someone makes simple circuit on a breadboard, and
>> it doesn't work, it's end of story. A multimeter will not show a
>> fraction of what a scope can do. And maybe I'm patronizing now, but I
>> bet that first circuit made by total beginner might possibly not work
>> the first time. Without toy scope that means the circuit goes to
>> garbage, and disapointed beginner looses interest in electronics and
>> becomes fashion influencer or minecraft youtuber. What a loss.
>>
>> Now to be more specific, my one-line comments about some models:
>>
>> DSO138 - unbelievably cheapest option, good for audio, terrible use
>> interface
>>
>> DSO112A - touchscreen yeah! And sqr generator inlcuded. Much better,
>> but usable only in mid range of timebases
>>
>> Fnirsi 2031 - ready to use in 2s! Good enough user interface,
>> actually can't remember what's so bad about it.
>>
>> Fnirsi 1013 - if not one thing it would be the best handheld scope
>> ever created - it pretends to be low noise by some nasty unpleasant
>> trick. And it is way more outrageous than aliasing. I'll share
>> detailed findings if anyone's interested. But it's slightly over $100
>> anyway.
>>
>> There's so many more to try yet, but the above list presents basicaly
>> full range of them. Other popular variants like 150, 5012, 6100,
>> 6020, 1C15, 1511 etc. always look similar (in appearance, size and
>> specs) to one of those listed here.
>>
>> Roman
>>
>> W dniu 2020-10-11 o 15:05, sleepy_dog at gmx.de pisze:
>>>
>>> I've seen some of those < 100 $ scope things that had DC offsets,
>>> lacking coupling options, total garbage trigger implementation and
>>> problems like that that make it not exactly a joy to use, "entry
>>> level" or not.
>>> Haven't looked at them for years. If you have an extensive
>>> collection as you say you are more likely to have come across ones
>>> that are decent - but is that a neutral view of the average
>>> implementation you are most likely to get, or undue bias from the
>>> ones you did like and use?
>>>
>>> I guess one could make a list of "known usable" ones, but such a
>>> list would become obsolete very quickly as things are today with all
>>> this no name gear and endless copy of a copy of a product, with the
>>> goal of further reducing the cost while being able to sell the
>>> appearance of a known product for a better margin.
>>>
>>> Sure, a old reputable-brand analog scope can be in bad shape,
>>> totally decalibrated I guess - maybe in that regard it's also risky
>>> to buy one as a beginner?
>>> Although sometimes they throw those out for (almost) nothing :) If
>>> one who got such a thing could get some friendly EE to look at it if
>>> it's basically OK...
>>>
>>> I'm not even saying specifically that alising thing really affects
>>> anyone in reality, IDK, just wanted to thrown in a bunch of possible
>>> examples of how one could add confusion or other aspects that might
>>> deter a beginner.
>>> Maybe you forgot how it can be as a total beginner because it's so
>>> long ago for you. Stepping into a field with a lot of loose ends in
>>> the mind and trying to make some connections and make abstract
>>> principles you just read about become intuitive.
>>> Gear doing funny things, it seemed to me, could disrupt that
>>> process. (sure, at some point, observing unexpected things is
>>> important to learn beyond the clear cut introductory textbook
>>> examples - but in the very beginning?)
>>>
>>> So the violin thing doesn't seem like a proper analogy.
>>> You  want people to learn violin - but standing on one toe instead
>>> of sitting on a chair.
>>> Bending a learning curve to your disadvantage is not virtuous. The
>>> thing that is a virtue about putting in effort to learn something is
>>> not the spending of the effort itself, or scrubbing the floor with a
>>> toothbrush would be the most virtuous thing ever.
>>> AGAIN - maybe my examples of problems with toy gear weren't good...
>>> but I'm not sure they are the only possible problems with these wild
>>> east products whose essence seems to be fluctuating all the time.
>>>
>>> As you say, such gear are tools for thinkig humans - already the
>>> good ones. Maybe bad gear is ramping up the difficulty level?
>>> That's what I was trying to get at with maybe not the best examples.
>>>
>>> OKAY, and perhaps I also just find it hard to believe that some <
>>> 100 $ thing of that class of instruments can be decent enough.
>>> Just a couple years ago a 500 $ scope was looked at with suspicion,
>>> and I bought one due to lack of options ;) (and it did have some issues)
>>> And I don't think I'm quite the oldest fella on this list here - but
>>> it still seems just like yesterday. Ok, maybe I'm starting to get old :D
>>>
>>> Sorry for the long and perhaps boring text.
>>> I just really do like to sort out how my perceptions came to be as
>>> they are and them not aligning with the basic sentiment put forth by
>>> you.
>>> I get it I'm only a lowly hobbyist, and worse, one that has roughly
>>> a million other hobbies and just can't frickin stick to one :D
>>>
>>> - Steve
>>>
>>> Roman Sowa wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, really.
>>>>
>>>> Signal amplitude of interest is well covered. You don't need
>>>> 500V/div in a scope. Analog front end is adequate to the scope
>>>> bandwidth which go up to some 30MHz in those toys. Maybe missing
>>>> those 1mV/div settings in some models, but who needs that for entry
>>>> level DIY? The old analog scopes were usually 5-20MHz and bandwidth
>>>> was not the weakest pont anyway. First 100MHz analog scope I saw
>>>> was big heavy and noisy Russian machine in mid 90's.
>>>>
>>>> Aliasing in digital scopes is a thing and anybody using it is aware
>>>> of that. It's mentioned everytime someone says "oscilloscope". I
>>>> think a newbie first learns about aliasing before knowing what an
>>>> oscilloscope is. It's like saying you can't work with high voltage
>>>> because it can shock you. There is no scope that prevents aliasing,
>>>> no such thing as antialias filtering in any scope, including top
>>>> range of top brands, because it's limiting and useless. Just like
>>>> there's no scope with a button "show me what's wrong with this
>>>> signal". A scope is a tool for thinking human.
>>>>
>>>> A violin will not play by itself either and if you don't know how
>>>> to play, it will only make terrible noises, even if it's $1M
>>>> Stradivari.
>>>>
>>>> Roman
>>>>
>>>> W dniu 2020-10-10 o 11:01, sleepy_dog at gmx.de pisze:
>>>>>
>>>>> > small toy scopes for below $100. And frankly they are better
>>>>> than big 50kg scopes I had in school
>>>>>
>>>>> Really? Including the analog front end, signal amplitude it can
>>>>> take, coupling options etc?
>>>>> And those old clunky analog scopes in school certainly did not
>>>>> fool you with aliasing due to improper filtering esp. when sample
>>>>> rate drops on long time base with ridiculously low k(!)points
>>>>> memory depth (like also "cheaper" *cough* Tek DSOs just a couple
>>>>> years ago), making you see things that aren't there.
>>>>> Those below 100 bucks scopes also usually have a very low sampling
>>>>> rate to start with, right?
>>>>> (don't "need" so high frequencies in synth DIY? Well, the
>>>>> *intended* frequencies that your DIY circuits *intentionally
>>>>> oscillate* at  may perhaps not need that... :D)
>>>>> Sure, he can watch a video like below and then know about that one
>>>>> thing.
>>>>> It seems to me when entering a subject with a million
>>>>> questionmarks, adding more confusing stuff one has to be aware of
>>>>> might be disorienting.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWADu0aKk0w
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Roman Sowa wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Totally agree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What may not seem so obvious, there's a catch - when you can
>>>>>> afford all the fancy tools you dream of, then suddenly your
>>>>>> creativity drops down the floor. With crappy tools you have to be
>>>>>> more creative and think, imagine, explore, experiment. For
>>>>>> example soldering - you have to learn how to solder anyhow, and
>>>>>> cheap soldering iron is not forgiving, so it will force you to
>>>>>> think what you're doing and be totally aware of what to do in
>>>>>> certain situations. I have bought my first temperature controlled
>>>>>> station about 20 years after I started soldering. Only because of
>>>>>> that I could appreciate it. In case you wonder, yest it's
>>>>>> possible to succesfully solder SMD with transformer soldering gun.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The scope is essential, I think even more than multimeter, but
>>>>>> today you can buy small toy scopes for below $100. And frankly
>>>>>> they are better than big 50kg scopes I had in school. I have
>>>>>> quite a few of those toy scopes, this is my small addiction, so
>>>>>> if you want to ask about specific model, I probably have that.
>>>>>> Don't buy "best scope you can afford", or "scope planned for the
>>>>>> future". Those times are over. Now there's new scope coming every
>>>>>> year, cheaper and better than others. After 2-3 years you'll know
>>>>>> what to look for, and it will be more GAS hitting than real
>>>>>> measurement needs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is very unpopular point of view here, but I think modern
>>>>>> digital scopes are much better that vintage analog Tek.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roman
>>>>>>
>>>>>> W dniu 2020-10-10 o 01:49, Peter Pearson pisze:
>>>>>>> While I agree that spending $1k will definitely get you set up,
>>>>>>> we aren't all so lucky. Especially when we're spending money
>>>>>>> made mowing lawns or working minimum wage as a youngster.  What
>>>>>>> I meant was that a quality iron will really make the biggest
>>>>>>> improvement.  That plus an "it works fine" multimeter and a
>>>>>>> working 20MHz oscilloscope used is almost all you need (less
>>>>>>> parts but that's subjective) to do some damage.  Take the price
>>>>>>> point down from $1k to something more like $200-$300 or less and
>>>>>>> that's attainable for a lot of people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something like this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HicV3Z6XLFA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BUY USED!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can work up to a $10k oscilloscope or whatever once you
>>>>>>> _need_ one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 7:36 PM Benjamin Tremblay via Synth-diy
>>>>>>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     I learned this stuff as a kid through trial, error, burned
>>>>>>>     fingers, and Radio Shack.  I never had more than ten or so
>>>>>>>     dollars on hand, so no voltmeter, no breadboard, no spools
>>>>>>>     of wire. I remember building the basic 556 “Atari punk
>>>>>>>     console” circuit and just thinking it made horrible noises
>>>>>>>     nobody would ever want to hear.
>>>>>>>     After building light-controlled oscillators for a year, I
>>>>>>>     started checking out books at Colorado State University. The
>>>>>>>     ancient books were the best: Musique Concrète and this book
>>>>>>>     written in Spanish from the 1940s showing how a film loop
>>>>>>>     generating optical pulses going into a modulator circuit
>>>>>>>     could be what we call a drum machine. My mother told me
>>>>>>>     about the Telharmonium in Worcester MA she read about in
>>>>>>>     Yankee Magazine. I built a Theremin using an oscillator and
>>>>>>>     an AM radio, and realized it would be easier to master the
>>>>>>>     violin than to get a melody out of a Theremin. Then I found
>>>>>>>     the 1970s books from UCLA on what we now call West Coast
>>>>>>>     Synthesis. When I got to the log tables in the middle of the
>>>>>>>     book I knew I couldn’t follow it; if music was math, music
>>>>>>>     was not for me.
>>>>>>>     It took a couple of years of futility to realize I had to
>>>>>>>     try again.
>>>>>>>     Paia was so inspirational, yet at the same time I felt the
>>>>>>>     kits were full of design compromises that left me in the
>>>>>>>     dark about best practices. (I remember testing the Gnome
>>>>>>>     after my brother put it together and we both thought it was
>>>>>>>     broken; but it was just the T filter doing its crappy T
>>>>>>>     filter thing.)
>>>>>>>     Then I was gifted a broken Paia Proteus when I was a junior
>>>>>>>     in high school. Fixing that beautiful machine gave me a new
>>>>>>>     appreciation for Paia.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Paia turned me onto Don Lancaster and Craig Anderton (as
>>>>>>>     editor of Electronic Musician).
>>>>>>>     After I got my hands on the books by Bryce Ward and Barry
>>>>>>>     Klein, I really wanted to do this stuff, but I had no way to
>>>>>>>     earn a living, and neither the math nor the music.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     How long does one have to live before you just start doing
>>>>>>>     what you love?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Benjamin Tremblay
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     > On Oct 9, 2020, at 6:53 PM, Benjamin Tremblay via
>>>>>>>     Synth-diy <Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>>>>>     <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>     >
>>>>>>>     > 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>     Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>>>     Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>>>>>>>     http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>
>>>
>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://synth-diy.org/pipermail/synth-diy/attachments/20201012/f74df787/attachment.htm>